THE POLICE BILL.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1871, 3 October 1913, Page 4

THE POLICE BILL.

PUT THROUGH COMMITTEE. SOME CONTENTIOUS CLAUSES. The House went into Committee on the Police Force Bill at 3 p.m. Mr. R. M'Callutn asked for a definition of the word "infamous" applied to offences under 1 Clause 19, and. contended that it was unfair tnat a man convicted of an offence Bhould lose all pon'sion benefits and any pay due to him. Mr. Cr. Witty said that to deprive a man convicted of an offence of nis pay would be to injure his family. Mr. \T. K. Sidey said that a railway employee convicted of an offence was entitled to draw out all money whioh he had paid in> on account of superannuation without interest. ■ > ■ ■ The Minister eventually agreed to delete the provision that a convicted constable should forfeit all pay, gratuity, or pension. ' Policemen and Hotels. Strong exception was taken to a provision that a constable should in,'cur dismissal, if ho kept a house for the salo of wine, beer, or spirituous. li- j quor, or was directly or indirectly in- ; terested in such a business. _ It was j suggested that a policeman might become liable to dismissal if someono bequeathed a small interest in a publichouse.to his,.wifo. ' Mr. Herdman said,that ho was no Prohibitionist, but considere3 it highly desirable that, a policeman should not have any direct or indirect interest in the licensed trade. It was absolutely desirablo in the present state of the licensing law in tnis country that a [ policeman should have no interest what- | over in the liquor trade. The clause i as it stood could do no harm, and uhdor it the tendoncy would be to get a class of men in the Force who would exerciso thoir duty without fear or favour. Sir Joseph Ward' contended that the clause was too drastic, and urged that "indirectly" should bo struck out. Mr. Herdman said that if this were done it would be possible for a policeman to hold a .mortgage over'a hotel, and so become directly interested in the management, control, and development of the business. As to the case of an intorest in a hotel being left to & policeman's wifo a policeman had no more legal interest m his wife s property than ho (tho Minister) had in tho property of the Leader of the Oppositipn and vice versa. If a policeman wero himself left hotel property by will tho authorities would givo liini an opportunity of leaving tho getting rid of his property. . He would have to do ono or tho other. . . » Mr.,M'Callum argued that though a man did not own his wife's property ho was indirectly interosted in hii

wifo's proporty, and vico versa. What should bo done was to provide that no constable should directly or indirectly control a licensed house. It would bo wrong to Jeavo tho olauso in its present drastic form trusting to the exercise of discretionary powor'by the Minister or tho Commissioner of Police. Mr. Russell: It would open tho way to political influonco. ' Ihe clause was passed without further amendment. ' Desortions and Assault. Mr. G. W. Russoll objected to the bracketing of "desertion of post" and "assault, on a superior officer" as offences punishablo oy a fine not exceeding £25. A man deserting his post ; he said, might be guilty of quite a trivial offence. Tho Minister Baid that the offence of desertion of post might easily bo a serious ono, and the ckuso was not amended. A Shot That Missed. Sir Joseph Ward complained that members of the Force were to be subjected to penalties without being convicted before a Judge or a magistrate, and said that Ira would read from "Hansard" what Mr. Herdman had said upon this subject on a former occasion. •Mr. Herdman pointed out that the clause contained the words "on conviction." . Sir Joseph Ward: Oh, it is "on conviction," is it? Then I won't read you what Mr. Herdman said. It is all right 1 (Laughter.) Polloomon and. Elections. Exception was taken,by Mr. Russell to a proviso that a fine not exceeding £100, imposed upon members of the Force actively engaging in politics, should be recovered: "by any person who may sue for the same by action to be commenced within one month after •the commission ■ of the offence." Mr. Russell declared that this would put a premium upon a despicable form of spyuig. , . The Minister admitted that soma exception was to be taken to the • proviso, and agreed that it should bo struck out." Another amendment accepted .by the Minister substituted a fine not exceeding £25 for a fine of not less than £5 and not exceeding £100 for breach of the provision that a policeman must not actively engage in politics. •Mr. W. H. D. Bell said that a dishonest politician might engage a policeman to influence voters and undertake to pay'his fines. Mr. Forbes: There are no dishonest, politicians, you Enow that. Mr. Wilson: Who are you looking at? Mr. Russell said .that there were no politicians on his. side who could afford to spend £25 in corrupting a policeman. ■ Mr. Laurenson said that he had been all his life in New Zealand, and had never known a "bobby" that it would pay to give £20 to to influence voters. Mr. Russell complained that a new offenQe was being created. "Don't let us," ho remarked, "pile up offenceß on .thoMieads of these unfortunate policemen."' Mr. Herdman: Oh, dear mo! Mr. Russell said that tile clause, would pavo 'the way for imaginary; charges being laid against policemen in small townsi of the "Little Pedlington" typo. He contended that the police should be 'controlled entirely by regulation so far as elections wore concerned. Sir J. Ward suggested that tho policemen who attended Mr. Massey's meeting at Christchurch some time ago might bo adjudged guilty of an offence under • the law as it was proposed to amend it.' ' Mr. Leo asked what about Palmerton?, and mentioned a story that Sir J. W ar d had gone to Palmerston S. prior to guarded by Duncdin police. . , . Sir Joseph Ward: Tho honourable gentleman was so. blind that time. Ho added that stories had appeared in tho Home papers to tho effect that he had gone-from Parliament Buildings to' a steamer accompanied by police. The truth wa& that ho went down with Sir Jas. Carroll and his secretary in a carriage, and novor even saw a policeman.' He had since seen extraordinary statements about a number of police. i The Leader of tho Opposition was continuing his remarks, but was stopped by the Chairman. . A Specific Case. / Mr. G. V. Pearce-said that in an instance which had oome .'to his knowledge a constable had told somo old ago pensioners that they would not get their pensions if the candidate' supporting the- then Government did not- iu. He was glad to say that the constable in question was no longer in the Force. Mr. Forbes said,that Mr. Pearce natt brought up. a hearsay accusation. Members knew' that polifcomen did not do these extraordinary things. Mr. Mander: If they don't do it they won't get .fined. ' Mr. Herdman said that the clause was a very necessary one. No policeman need have any fear of it unless ho becamo a political tout. If he became a political tout he became liable. vMr. Russell: Have you ever known a policeman do that? Mr. Herdman said that he had heard from a gentleman on tho Opposition side of the House a complaint about a policeman interfering in an election. As to what Sir Joseph Ward had said about the policemen at Mr. Massey's meeting in diristchurch the Bill made it quite clear that no policeman was liable to a penalty for any act done in the discharge of his duty. A Comparison. Dr. A. K. Newman said ( that tho clause was lop-sided and unfair. Why not apply it, no asked, to all Civil Servants '{ Mr. Herdman: Tho honourable gentleman had better vote against-it. "Dr. Newman: Oh, I have not the least hesitation. I am going to vote against it." He continued that Civil Servants in all Departments took part freely in elections, and there - was no reason why ono set of Civil Sorvants should bo restricted more than another. The Bill w&3 being stuffed too full of regulations. Tho amendment reducing the fine .to an amount not exceeding £25 was agreed to. Sir J. Ward said that he had never known a policeman to bo a tout. Ho had never at any time asked a policeman or a public officer what his politics "wore or how he was going to vote. Public servants had a' clear right to discuss the general politics of the country, and the same right should bo accorded to policemen: A Conversion. Mr. A. Harris said that ho knew for a fact that a constable in his district had actively ennvassed against him at last election. He added that tho constable had since, seen the error of his ways, and was now an ardent supporter of tho present .Government, On a division the clause was retained in the Bill by 30 votes to 26. As finally passed the clause read:— (1) No member of tho Fores shall during tho time ho continues in tho Force tako any part in any election of a member of tho General Assembly otherwise than by voting, or in . any manner influence or seek to influence any other elector at any such election. (2) Every member of the Forco who commits an offence against tliis section is liable on conviction to a fmo not exceeding £25, but nothing herein shall subjoct any member of tho Forco to any penalty for any act done by him in tho discharge of his duty at or concerning any olection." Clause 25 provides that the Minister may from timo to time appoint a com- , mitteo of inquiry, consisting of officers

of the Force to inquiro into claims by members of tho Forec. 'Mr. Russell suggested that "members " siiould be Substituted for " officers," so that constables or sergeants might bo appointed on a committee of inquiry. Mr. Herdman dissented from,the proposal, and moved to insert " commissioned" beforo officers, so as to make it clear tbat only commissioned officers should sit upon a committeo of inquiry. Mr. Russell said that this would mako matters worse than ever. He was almost sorry that ho had spoken. The Opposition's Promise. Tho I'rimo Minister at 3.37 p.m. reminded the Opposition of the agreement of tho previous night that only two hours should be spent on tho Bill. Mr. Witty: There has been no obstjjjction. Tho Primo Minister; No. Absolutely none. Sir Joseph Ward said that he had mado tho promiso with a reservation. Tho Prime Minister replied that the promiso was definite, but tho matter was not further talked about. . The Police Association. Mr. W. A. Voitch proposed an amendment providing that a Committee of Inquiry appointed by the Minister might consider matters brought wider its notice by the officors of a recognised association of tho members of the Force. Ho explained that he did so in order to take a vote upon the recognition or non-recognition of tho Police Association. Tho Bill before the House, in his opinion, was more severely repressive than any law on tho Statute Book. Tho Appeal Board provided was a bogus one. There was no time limit within which appeals must be heard, so that no member of the Force could compel tho Minister to have appeals heard. In view of theso facts, lib hoped the amendment would be supported. Mr. Herdman said that he had already fully explained to tho House his reasons for not recognising any association of police officers. The Minister and the Commissioner, he added, had more power tmder . the present law, than was conferred upon them in tho Bill before the House. He had also made it quite clear that members of ,the Police B'orce had a right, if they so desired, to join tho Public Scrvice Association. He was confident that to agree to tho amend--ment would lead to endless trouble in tho Police Force. The people of New. Zealand would realise that the proposal contained in tho amendment was fraught with , danger to the public good. It Would 1 ' be impossible to maintain discipline in the Police Force if such an association were recognised. The present Bill was a concession to the Police Force of .New Zealand. It was tho most liberal measure of its kind .that' had been introduced in any Australian Parliament. It was ridiculous, absurd, and inaccurate to state that tho powers conferred in this Bill upon the Minister and Commissioner were more drastic than the powers that already existed. At the present time the Minister and Commissioner wore absolute monatchs Tho Bill curtailod their powers. . The amendment moved by Mr. Veitch was lost on tho voices. Mr. Voitch thon moved an amendment providing that a oommitteo of inquiry might consider matters brought under its notice by tho officers of tho Public Service Association, This. amendment also Was rejected on tho voices. Assisting tho Police. Mr. G. W. Russell moved an amendment to Clause 33, which gives a constable power to call upon a "male bystander or passer-by not being under the ago of eighteen yoars," to assist him. in tho arrest of a prisoner. 'Mr. Russell'b amendment was to substitute twenty-one for eighteen years. Tho amendment was defeated on tho voices. . . , ' " Clauses 35 to 42, the last eight clauses of the Bill, were passed in a very few minutes without remark. Two now clauses, one fixing the retiring ago for, constables at sixty-five years, and another defining the Minister's powers to appoint special constables were agreed to. Mr. G. Witty moved to insert a new clause to give every member of the Force who felt aggrioved with the decision of the Commissioner regarding him the right of appeal, suoh appeal to be disposed of within threo months of its being lodged. Tho Minister did not accept the clause, and it was defeated by 32 votes to 29. ' At 6.23 p.m. the Bill was reported with amendments. HAURAKI PLAINS. BILL NOT A BORROWING ONE. The Hon. W. F. MASSEY moved that tho Hauraki Plains Amendment Bill bo read a third timo; ' Silt JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) .drew attention to tho clause of tho Bill which provided that sums raised for Hauraki drainago under other Acts should be deomed- to be raised under the Hauraki Plains Amendment Bill. He asked how much, if any, of tho £145,000 t° bo raised undol- the Bill was to bo devoted to repayment of the amount already expended from other accounts. He would like the Primo, Minister to explain what was the real meaning of the clause. He expressed his satisfaction with the Haufaki Plains enterprise, and with tho work done by the Departmental officers and engineers. The PRIME MINISTER endorsed remarks tho Leader of the Opposition had made in congratulation of Mr. Kensington, Mr.' Thompson, and other, officials who had been concerned in the work of reclaiming tho Piako swamp. He believed that the first' suggestion in Parliament: in regard to the. possibility of draining this swamp came from himself. Years ago,.'when, a small part of tho Piako swamp was included in tho Franklin electorate, one of his constituents (a Mr. Frost) was in the House one night, and'said to him: "I wish you would suggest draining the Piako swamp for flaxmilling purposes." Ho (Mr. Massoy) made the suggestion on tho Estimates that evening, and asked that a report should be obtained. Sir Josoph Ward: I heard Sir Geo. Grey mention it in my first session in Parliament. A Fact Not Craspod. The honourable member had asked for an explanation of a clause in the Bill. Mr. Massoy said apparently tho right honourable gentleman had not grasped the fact that the Bill did not provido for any additional authorities. The Government wore not asking for a copper thai was not authorised under the Bill of last year. Money had first been obtained for Hauraki drainage under the Loans to Local Bodies Act. Then another change was made, and provision was mado in another Bill, authorising the superintendent of tho Advances Department to raise money for the works. But the superintendent had never . been able to raise any moneys, for tho money had always been raised by tho Minister. Now the authority was boing placed where it should be, in tho hands of tho Minister. He bolieved that a great deal more money would be required ' for tho drainage works, bccauso not half of tho swamp had been drained yet. He would not be surprised if the Department, through liim, asked Parliament for more money this year. There was no doubt about tho work on the plains haying been well done, and no doubt about the venture proving a profitable one to Now Zealand. Most of tho benefits coming to tho State would como from the placing oh tho land_ of sturdy, thrifty settlers. As Minister of Lands' it had boon.a pleasing and satisfactory duty to superintend theeeworks. Reverting to tho Sir Georgo Gray quoa-

tion, he said that the swamp associated with that gentleman's name 'was the swamp between Hamilton and Morrinsvillo, called tho Piako swamp, but separated by' 40 miles and a range of bills from tho Hauraki Plains country. The Bill was read a third timo on tho voices, and passed.