THE LOAN BILL.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1870, 2 October 1913, Page 4

THE LOAN BILL.

SIR JOSEPH WARD ANGRY. RAILWAY LINES IN AWARUA. The Aid to Public Works and Land Settlement Bill was committed. Mr. It. M'Callum moved that- tho Bill be called "Tho Loan Act, 1913."

Tho Hon. Jas. Allen declined to accept the suggestion. Mr. Witty asked tho Minister of finance to give the committee particulars of the allocations under tho Bill. Tho Minister of Finance said that it was impossible to give full particulars until the Public Woi'ks Estimates came down. A Hostile Amendment. Mr. J. A. Hannan moved to strike out the last item ji the schedule - "In respect of other public works, £150,000." Ho did so, he stated, on tho authority of tlio views expressed by tho Minister of Finance and members on tho other side of the Houso when they were in Opposition. 'Tlio Minister had just.stated that lie could not give any information regarding items for .which appropriations were beiug made.. In 1909, Mr. Allen,'in criticising tho Loan Bill of that year, had moved to reduce by £200,000 an item:' "In respect of other public works, £400,000," on the ground that it was unfair to the House that it should be asked to commit itself to a loan of £400,000 without having any idea of what it was for. Tho Minister was now asking the Houso to authorise a loan of £150,000 without giving any indication of what it was for. He voted with Mr. Allen in 1909. Ho wanted to tost the sincerity of members on the Government sido of the House in regard to their votes and" their criticism, and he wanted tho Honourable James Allen to bo the same man as- he was in 1909. _ Mr. Allen had laid it down that the right and constitutional thing was to bring down the Estimates cut down as far as possiblo and then, bring in tho Loan Bill afterwards. Mr. G. Witty said that in 1909 the Hon. A. L. Ilerdmail had advocated submitting all applications for public works grants or for State loans to an advisory committee. Ho hoped that Mr. Herdman and members of Jiis party would support a similar proposal now. Mr. Fisher: How did you vote? Mr. Witty: Never mind how I voted. (Laughter.) In 1910, lio continued, tlio present Primo Minister had recommended the House to voto against the Loan Bill o'r that year because it did not contain a schedule showing what, the monoy was for. It was equally'' necessary that the information should bo supplied now.

Mr. J. V. IJrou'li said that tho Minister of Public Works had given fivo roasons last year for not stopping the lino running out. of Napier. 'Afterwards, it was stopped, ana now it was lying idle. It should be continued and finished at once.' Opposition Leader on Railways. Sir Joseph Ward said that tho Napier section of the East Coast line should never have been stopped. In the event of any reduction being necessary it should have been a pro rata reduction. He had been a long time in'office in this country, he continued, and had never had a railway built in his district. Last year one had been authorised. Not only had it not been started, but tho amount of tho vote had been cut down. ; The 1 . Minister of i Finance and tho Prime Minister had' each had a. largo and important line authorised in their districts. He declared that, although lie would support tlio loan, its amount was very large. In the past Mr. Allen had called linn "plunger." That term would not apply to Mr. Allen, but "inconsistency would. Charges and Replies. . Mr. L. Mi Isitt taxed tho Government with inconsistency in that tbey had in Opposition declared that borrowing would have to bo curtailed, and now they were submitting a Loan Bill for an amount that was £250,000 more than Sir Joseph Ward had asked for. Ho hoped that some of tho supporters of the Government would bo consistent again, and vote for Mr. Hanan's amendment. For himself,' ho would vote for the Bill, recognising, as ho always had, that borrowing was necessary if we were to seize our present opportunities. and increase tho wealth of tho country rapidly by development work;

Mr. G. V. Pearco (Patea) said he had voted against previous Loan Bills, and if there were any items in this Loan Bill similar to those to vrtiich he had taken exception in others ho would vote against it. He was not opposed to borrowing for the back country on roads and/ railways, but he was opposed to wasteful expenditure such as that on the Hutt Road and railway, on Parliament Buildings, and ion big post offices for Auckland and Wellington. The late Government, too, had done all they could to put this country in a hole by going round the country turning first sods of railways. That was about all they had money for. When they did get money it was at a cost of £5 2s. 6d. per cent., and Now Zealand 1 could not afford 1 to borrow money at that rate. Mr. F. H. Smith said the member for Awarua had complained that no new railways wore being authorised in his district. But, he said, producing a map, the reason was obvious, for there were 14 branch lines in the near vicinitv of Sir Joseph Ward's electorate, besides the main trunk line. Apparently there was not a gully in the electorate that had not a branch line running through it. There was not a lino in Stewart Island yet, and if any more lines were to be built it would be necessary to tunnel under the sea anc) run a line to Stewart Island. AN ANGRY OUTBURST. RAILWAYS IN AWARUA. Sir Joseph Ward said that ho would brand the honourable gentleman who had just spoken as a wilful and deliberate misreprescnter of the truth in that ho had stated that there were fourteen branch lines in his (Sir Joseph Ward's) electorate. There were not fourteen linos in his electorate or near it, and if tho statement made by the 1-onou'rable gentleman had been made outside the House there would only he one word of four letters which would properly describe the man making it. Tho Prime Minister asked whether it. was in order, or consistent with the dignity of Parliament, that such statementa should be made. The Chairman said that it was not in order to so pointedly suggest that a member of the House was, in statements made .in the House, not telling the truth. Sir Joseph Ward said that there were not fourteen linos of railway in or near iiis district. No line of railway had been authorised in his district during tho whole of his time as a Minister of tho Crown. Ho angrijy denounced Mr. Smith's action in waving a snap as ungentlemanly. Tho member for Patea, Sir Josoph Ward continued, had made a statement that every member round him knew was contrary to fact. Mr. Pearce had stated that he voted for the reduction of a loan because of the projected wasteful expenditure of half a million of gjouey, on

Mr. Pearce: Read my speech. Sir Joseph Ward asked whether tho lion, gentleman repeated his statement now. He had never proposed to spend half a million on the Parliamentary grounds. No fair man or woman who reviewed the scheme for which ho had lieen responsible would hear out the wilfully incorrect statement made by the member for Patca.

The Chairman ordered the withdrawal of the words "wilfully incorrect," and tho member for Awarua withdrew them, substituting "statements that any man oF ordinary intelligence would know to be incorrect." Ho defended past expenditure upon public buildings. Concluding, he.remarked that if it was any satisfaction to Messrs. Smith and I'earcc to make statements deliberately contrary to fact

The Chairman ordered that this expression should be withdrawn. Sir Joseph Ward withdrew _ it, and substituted "obviously contrary to fact." If t!ii members he had mentioned would make such statements in tho presence of their brother members and of the press, what would they say, he asked, when they were not in tho presenco of their brother members and of tho press? Finally he referred to the statements mado by tho two members as "cool and colossal." Mr. J. Payne supported tho amendment. The Roll of Fame.. Mr. H. G. Ell accused the members of the Government with declaiming against tho expenditure on the Wellington Post Office, but they had been very anxious to havo their names inscribed on it. Mr. W. Nosworthy reminded tile Houso of another instance of members of a Government being anxious to have their names inscribed on the roll of famo. They had been in such haste to havo thsir names on the foundationstone of the new Parliament Buildings that they had sent to a, tombstonomaker, had their names' cut in a piece of marble, and laid the stone embedded iu a few tons of bricks.

ENEMY OF WASTE. NEVER OPPOSED TO BORROWING. The Hon. J. Allen referred to the criticisms levelled against him about his action in opposing the loan of ■ 1909. That year had witnessed a sudden increase in tho proposals for borrowing for public works. Tho Houso had been told by previous Treasurers that tho country could afford only about a million a year for public works, but in 1909 it was increased to £2,250,000. He said then that' this was an enormous amount. In any case, in that Bill the amount in the schedulo for unspecified public works was £400,000 instead of £150(000 as tho present Bill proposed. And he had not moved to cut the amount out altogether, but simply to reduce it by £200,000. Ho had, therefore, left a bigger amount than .was asked for in this Bill. Ho had been accused of opposing borrowing; ho would defy anyone to show him where ho had advocated the stopping or even tho reduction of borrowing. He had advocated the cutting down of wasteful expenditure. For tho expenditure of the £150,000 it was almost impossible to< give details to tho House. .Ho had complained about this in previous years, and noxt year lie hoped, to make a vital alteration in the manner in which Public Works moneys were allocated. For railway construction the sum provided' in tho Bill was "£600,000. Mr. Witty and others: What rail-.i ways? >'• The Minister said that members must look for details of railway construction in tho Public Works Estimates, •, except so far as they could bo guided by., the listimates of last year, which they could be very largely. • Out of this loan money of £1,750,000 there wero liabilities on March 31 last' to tho amount of £673,000. Honourable members' knew these items, every detail of them. Ho could not give details of the additions to open lines, but half a million was required for that purpose. Last year tho expenditure on public buildings was £450,000. He had already told the House that provision for expenditure on public buildings would not bo less this year, probably more. Mr. Russoll: Are you going to take it out of the £150,000? ■ . Mr. Allen said that ho had made it clear that.it was impossible to allocate this money even with the' Public Works Estimates' in hand, because there wero' two sources of supply, loan money and the Consolidated Fund. He had said in past years that it would be better if the items, were distinctly allocated, and fie said so now. Reforms would be effected as rapidly as pos'siblo, but they could not be all brought forward at onco. Honourable members must leave the Government some reforms to bo brought forward in years to come. The £150,000 in tho schedule of tho Bill was mostly for postal and telegraphic extension and for lands improvement. He could not give details. An Advisory' Committeo. The Minister went on to remark that he was not at all sure that'an Advisory, Committee might not yet have to come, but they could not bring in all reformsill one week, one month, or one year. Mr. Hanan: You wanted to put it in that night. Mr. Allen: "Have a little patience I" The purchase of land in front of railways, lie continued, was the policy of tho Government. The railway from Napier would not be constructed, so far as he was concerned, until the land had been purchased in front of it. If they got this Loan Bill through in reasonable time, he would use it instead of issuing Treasury bills* The loan already raised should last until tho middlo of November. From that time until the middle of December there was a blank period during which he must either use this Bill or. issue Treasury bills. Ho did not want to take the latter course. Railway Construction. The Hon. R. M'Kenzie condemned tho Government's action in neglecting to go on with the construction of the East Coast railway. ' The object, he believed, for delaying railway construction works was to disorganiso tho labour market by throwing a number of men out of employment. •

Mr. It. M'Callum advocated the claims of tho South Island Main Trunk railway to the consideration of the Government.

Mr. 6. W. Itussell said that ho had l)cen interested in Jlr. Allen's statement that tho East Coast railway would not be built any further mi less tho land adjacent to the route were purchased in advance. But ho (Mr. llussell) pointed out to the Minister that on some new lines there had been 110 purchasing, of laud. Mr. Allen: It is all in small holdings. Mr. Russell replied that it appeared the Government were going to use the country's money to enhance vastly the value of these small holdings, many of which would soon become residential areas when the railway was built. He counselled the Government to adopt the betterment principle as the members of the Opposition asked. Mr. A. Harris urged that additions to open linos should not bo provided'for out of loan money,''for the reason that they were really maintenance charges. Mr. C. A. Wilkinson urged that tho lino to connect Taranaki with Auckland was one of the most urgent works in the country. Another important railway was tho Opunake lino. Generally he approved the ; dea of buying land in ndvnnce of railway construction, but this would be impossible in some districts, as for instance along tho route of the Opunake line, owing to the verr high value of the land. It would also be impossible to apply the betterment principle to thi? lino, tho settlers

had been waiting for the lino for somo 30 years. Mr. J. H. Bradney said lie hoped that the cry about the reduction of borrowing would ceaso, and that the Government would carry out n vigorous public works policy for the benefit of the country. Mr. P. C. Wobl) accused tlioso Government members who were continually saying that the Otira tunnel ought not to' be completed of speaking in the interests of the shipping monopolies of the country, who were opposed to the construction of this line. Mr. Hanan's Amendmont. Mr. J. Hanun, wnose amendment had been postponed iur a lime, now moveu: "Thai/ tlio item, -ill respect ol other puolic works, ssioO.UJO,' ue reduced »y iiUUjUOU,'"—as an indication mat « was untair to submit tuo item tu tiio .House without furnishing information us to what it was ior. Mr. Hamui (iupteii, as ho had done previously, lroni criticisms passed 'by members of the present Government ■upon former Loan Bills, and claimed that they should support his amendment.

The Hon. Jlls. Allen said that in 190U the Government had brought down two Loan Bills, in tho schedules of which there were two amounts, one of £100,000, and one of £400,000 for. unspecified public works. Ho had moved to reduce tho item of £400,000 by) £200,000. This year the Government wero asking for one amount of £150,000 only. He had given all tho information ho could about what tho £160,000 was intended for—that it was intended mainly for post and telograph extension. , Sir. J. A. Hanan accused the Minister of "wriggling" in mentioning tho extra Bill iii 1909. When Mr. Allen had moved to reduce tho amount of £400,000 he had done so as a protest against a practice which ho was himself perpetuating. Tho Hon. W. H. Heiries asked tho momber Itor Invercargill' whether _ alt those 42- members who voted against Mr. Allen's amendment in 1909 would now vote against Mr. Hanan's. It seemed to him that there was likely to bo shown somo inconsistency on tho other side of tho House.

The amendment was defeated, by 58 votes to 5. Tbe supporters of the amendment were: Messrs. Hanan, Payne, Hindmarsh, Ell, and J. C. Thomson. ■ V, ' . The Bill was not debated further in its Committeo. stages.

HAURAKI DRAINACE. Tho Hauraki Plains Amendment Bill (tho Hon. W. F. Massey) was passed through Committee without amendment. POLICE FORCE BILL. DISMISSALS'AND APPEALS. Tho Police Force Bill (the Hon. A. L.. Herdman) was further considered in Committee. Tho Hon. A. L. Hordman moved to amend Clauso 8, referring to the suspension of officors. Tho effect of the amendments was to take from the Government tho power to suspend or reduce tho Commissioner, leaving power to discharge only, and to give the Government power to reduco Other officers guilty of misconduct, and to suspend officors charged with misconduct until the charge could be inquired into. Mr. W. A. .Veitch proposed as an 'amendment that there bo added to the clause "provided that in no caso shall a ma.n bo suspended .without pay for moro than 14 days." The Hon. A. L. Herdman said that if a man was acquitted after suspension on a Charge or miscoudjict, no loss- of pay ensued.' .Finally ho agreed to accept tho amendment if tho time wore altered to twenty days, and this compromise was acceptable to Mr. Veitch. All the amendments wero agreed to, and tho clause was passed as amended. ' ■ Better Appeal Board? On the next clause, relating to dismissals, ' , , Sir Joseph Ward asked the Minister whether he would favour the setting up of an Appeal Board similar to that , provided l for othor branches of _ the Civil Service. Ho was not satisfied with tho clauso in tho Bill giving the limited right of appeal proposed,-^ The Hon. A. L. Herdman said he could not accept tho honourable gentleman's proposal. The police, being required at times to protect life and property, were in a different poistion from other members of tho Civil Sorvico, and discipline in tho Force must bo strictly maintained. Tho appeal allowed was as wide as tho Government could (jo in the interests of tho public, and, of the police themselves. It was a more liberal right of appeal than was allowed to any other Police Force in tho world. 'Sir Joseph Ward said the appeal was virtually to tho Minister under tho clause in the Bill, and this was not 1 fair to tho force. He could see no objection to establishing a. system- of appeals similar to that allowed to railwaymen and other public servants. Ho would later move a resolution, and take a division on it to give members of the Force a right of appeal similar to that allowed to other Civil Servants. Mr. J. Payno said that the clause virtually gave tho a summaiy right of dismissal,'ancTthe right of appeal to the board as set up by the Bill would not give the police adequate protection. , Mr. G. Forbes also thought the Minister should give tho men of the Police Force an appeal board in which they could have confidence. Unsafe to Go Farther. The Hon. A. L. Herdman said he had no desire to be unreasonable. He had given the matter a great deal pf consideration, and compared it with othor clauses in other Acts relating to appeals allowed in Police Forces olsewtiere. He was satisfied that he could not safely allow any wider right of appeal, and he could not accept any amondment 'in tho clauso providing for appeals. It was necessary, ho added, that tho Commissioner should retain the 1 right of summary dismissal. Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh said that he sympathised with the Minister of Justice, for ho realised, with tho Minister, that it was essential to the discipline of tho Force that the Commissioner should retain very wide powers.' Tho i work of the police was very different from that of other Public Sorvants, as all of it could not bo brought to the test pf fact. Anyone with experience of tho law Courts must know that the police had very wide powers which could very easily be abused, and that it was necessary in tho interests of public safety that tho Commissioner should have power to 1 dismiss members of the Force for cause shown. Tho clauso was passed unaltored. Deserters. Mr. H. Atniore suggested tho deletion of a provision that deserters from the Force might be arrested without warrant. The Minister said that the clause was in the present Act, and that ho saw no reason to alter it. The offence of desertion was a very serious one, mid there were very few cases. Tho Minister accepted an amendment making it obligatory instead of optional that evidence at inquiries into tho conduct of members of the Force should be taken on oath. An Amendment Defeated. Sir Joseph Ward moved an amendment to change the constitution of tho Appeal Board. II is proposal was that tho Government should appoint a Judge or Magistrate to be chairman of the board, and also another person not a member of the Force, and that two members, a commissioned officer and a non-commis-sioned officer, should bo elected by the Force. This, ho urged, would give the police an Appeal Board »'jnilar to that,

allowed to other branches of the Public Scrvico. '

The amendment was defeated by 33 votes to 25.

Mr. W. A. Veitch ( moved an amendment to make the' decision of the Hoard of Appeal final. " This amendment was opposed by tho Minister, and it was defeated on the voices.

A division wns taken on the whole clause relating to appeals. The clause was agreed to by 32 votcs'to 22.

At 1.37 a.m., after Sir Joseph Ward had made several appoals to tho Prime ,Minister not to go on any longer, and the Prime Minister had urged that tho Hill should bo put through, Sir Joseph Ward moved to ropOrt progress. A long-drawn-out argument, followed, the Loader of the Opposition and bis followers refraining from doing any more work. The Prime Minister said that if consideration, of tho Bill were completed bo would ask the House to excuse committees Bitting this morning, but the proposal did not find favour, and the Opposition continued their protests ngajnst going any further. Tho motion to report' progress was discussed for forty minutes before an agreement was readied. Finally the Prime Minister agreed to report progress if the Leader of tho Opposition would give an undertaking that no moro. tlm.n two liours should bo spoilt upon the remaining clauses of the Bill to-dny. Sir Joseph Ward gave the undertaking unreservedly, and progress was reported. ' • The House rose at 2:25 a.m.