COUNCIL REFORM.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1870, 2 October 1913, Page 4

COUNCIL REFORM.

GOVERNMENT MEASURE NOT ACCEPTED.

LOAN RAISING.

THE POLICES-DISMISSALS & APPEALS.

; -i t Tho Legislative Council sat at 2.30 p.m. • -iThe'New Zealand Institute of Architects Bill, and tho Local Elections and Polls Amendment Bill 'were : received from the Houso of Representatives and icad a hrst time. \

• COUNCIL REFORM BILL WITHDRAWN BY THE MINISTER COMMITTEE PROCEEDINGS. The Legislative Council Bill, the short title or .which had already been passed, s- .v as furthfer' eoiisiderejlnn Committee. > The lion. 11. I). Bell asked that Clauses 2 and 8 be postponed and that ' the Council proceed at once to discuss ■■■" Clause 9, providing, ,'for .the 'election of ; ■ 1 Councillors. lie further, proposed that ;•; . the clause two sections'. This proposal was'agreed to.. , Tho Hon. 0. Samuel." said tho ;-'V thanks of the Council were.duoto the Loader- for having allowed the. Council to como straight, to the ;vitar clause of r- : the Bill. '• ' . - \ t- !-• • The first sub-section which was taken, was simply, to the effect that the Coun- ■■■■.., cil be made an elective body. The secr ' ond provided in effect that tho election should be by proportional representation. ■ . /. ; Maori Members. The Hon,'- S. Thorne Georgo moved as . an a'inendtneht tti abolish theVight of the Government to appoint members of tho , ■'■■■ ; .Nativo race. This, he urged, would.pUt the Natives oil the sariio footing ; as >•' . Europeans. . ' ! Tho Hon.' J. Rigg said ho would , support tho amendment; but he recog.j . : nised .that it would .be; necessary, to .; create a new Maori ; The Hon. H. D. 801 l said ho, trusted the Council would not support the amendment. The Maori did not .now vote by ballot .as . tho Europeans did, and the race wo'uld have to ho provided for. It would bo mere Jaiighiiig at the proportional representation proposals m tlio Bill because proportional representation, for its success, required that : there should be not only a large num--1 her of voters, but a fairly. large>'.'numbor of candidates. This .would, be impossible in a Maori constituency. The amendment had not'the merit of consistency, because it did not propose to dctermi'no tho tenure of office of thoso <•". gentlenieli',. appointed for life, or of those " appointed' for a; less term. IJnder any system of election it w;ould be impos- ■ siblevto avoid. Jiavirig, a* proportion of iiomiflattid Jmeiiibors'. >

( Tho _' Hon. 0. Samuel urged tho Council to hesitate before agreeing to tho amendment, and so deprive tho Natives of tho right they now enjoyed of 'sharing'in.tho framing of the laws they lvero compelled to 'obey. '.Further Mr. Bell's argument that, proportional representation could not bo' applied to a Maori constituency was unanswerable. Tho Hon. J. Anstey said, he would support the amendment,- • 'Tho Hon. S. Thorno George said ho did ••not.- wish toj. excltjdo' Maoris from the Council. His idea was that Maoris should stand with' Europeans for the samb constituency, and then, if proportional representation was any. good, the Maoris would bo' ablo to secure the return of two or threo of thoir candidates. Parliament was professing to make Maoris and Europeans equal under the law, but for some reason this was not being'done in this case.

The. iimendmeht was defeated by 22 votesjtct 7. The members wlio voted for the; amendment were'tho Hons. Georgej Rigg, Barr, Boebaii; ; Smith, Ivolly r and Anstoy. : -To Test the Feeling..:! ' The Hon. J. Rig'g moved to "striko out the words "elected and not," to make, tho -clause road that members "shall hereafter bo ~. i appointed." This he moved to test tho feeling of the Council. The Hon. K. D. Bell said that the lion, gentleman's amendment would have tho. effect of retaining the prosent constitution,''and this could be achieved by the simple rejection of the clause. , . .

The. Hon. J. Anstoy: thought somo such amendment was necessary to put this issue clearly before the Council. 'At present there wore three issues at least involved in tho acceptanco or rejection of the clause.

The-Hon. AV. Earnshaw thought tho Government were entitled to a "fair run," and a'straight-out decision on their proposal.. This -would bo intercepted by tho.passago of such an amendmont as that proposed. Tho majority of members who spoke advocated the clause going to the Council intact, and urged Mr. Rigg not to press his. amendment. . In tho end, Mr. Rigg agreed to let his. amendment fco on the voices, and it was defeated. Election Agreed To. The sub-clause wns adopted by 20 votes t0,10.' Following was the division list:—

Ayes (20): Bell, Callan, Luke, George, Paul, Birr, Jenkinson, Earnshaw, Nikora, O'Rorke, Johnston, Hardy, Smith,. Collins, M'Cardle, Louissou, Diithie, Thomson, Mills, Sinclair. Noes (10): Rigg, Jones, Gilmor, Beehan, Baldciy,' Loughnan,. Kelly, Anstey, Harris, Samuel. The Method of Election. The next,sub-clause prescribed the System of election. The Hon. H. D. Bell said that it was proposed -under tho ' sub-clause, which made no mention ; of proportional representation, but contained-a reference to "electoral divisions," to determine the whole issue as to whether the election should be by proportional representation. 16 would, howover, bo possible to alter the size of the electoral divisions if the Council so decided. Tho Hon. J. R. Sinclair and the Hon. G. J. Smith both pointed out that while they;'were in favour of election, they wore not in favour of election by proportional representation. They might therefore be forced to vote against the olnnse.

The Hon'. H. D. Bell said lie had matin, with Mr. Samuel, the arrangement he had indicated as to the raising of the proportional representation issue,

hilt ho would .withdraw the arrangement if it was going ..to force members to vote against the clause.' . The Hon. 0. Samuel said it was not at all necessary to make any variation of tho arrangement, because members had already spoken on tlio Bill and expressed tlidlr opinions. One reproach against the Council was that members of it were not independent enough as their terms of appointment drew near an end, and he reminded councillors that if they did not vote in accordance with clearly-expressed convictions they would bo liable to misrepresentation. " ' A Straight-out Issue. The Hon. H. D. Bell said that his reason. for withdrawing his agreement was that neither he nor Mr. Samuel had any right to como to any arrangement as to what the effect of a clause might be, if tKat clause did not clearly express that effect, when such an arrangement put any member of tho Council'under a disability in recording his vote. Finally he made a proposal that all reforence to "electoral division" should be . excised from the clause making tho effect of the clause simply that members of the Colmcil'should be elected by popular vote. Then he would propose a further sub-clauso: "Such election shall bo upon the system of proportional representation as hereinafter defined."

This proposal found general acceptance, and-the sub-clauso was amended accordingly. Vital Clause Defeated. The sub-clauso as amended was lost after a division by 14 votes to 13. Following was the division list:—

Ayes (13): Bell, Callan, Luke, Paul, Barr, Nikora, O'Rorke, Collins, Smith, M'Cardle, Louisson, Duthie, Sinclair. Noes (14): Georgo, Rigg, Jones, Gil-, mer, Beehan, Baldey, Johnston, Loughnan, Kelly, Anstey, Harris, Thomson, Mills, Samuel; Pairs:— . • ' t

'■! Ayes:, Earnshaw, Jenkinson, Hardy, M'Lean. .. - - (' Noes: Ormond, Stevens, Baillie, Miller. ~ ' . The absentees were the Hon'. Captain Tuckor, tbe Hon. T. Para'ta, ana the Hon. T...Y. Duncan. j . The Committee's Bill. , The Hon. H. D. Bell asked Mr. Samuel whether lie proposed to move to insert in the Bill the clauses agreed to by'the Committee. %

The Hon. 0. Samuel said that it would be . impossible for'a private member to insert the ,clauses in the Bill without the. aid of the Government, and, recognising this, ho did . not propose to assume the task. The Hon. H. D. 801 l said the committee had passed certain resolutions from which lie had dissented. Having dissented from the'ni, it was'obviously impossible for. him or tho Government to move to givo effect to them. Ho .would-ask M r - Samuel whether he was acting with the concurrence of the committee. ,

The Hon. o'. Samuel said he was being dignified with honours he did not deserve. He had proposed tlio setting up of the committoo, and later he had acted as chairman of tho committee, and had drafted a Bill for the purpose of putting- the resolutions of the committee into concroto. form. The division of the committee was 5 to 4 in favour of the Bill. Ho was certainly too modest a man to attempt to pass a Legislative Council Reform Bill. The Bill Withdrawn. .The Hon. H. D. 801 l said that all ho wished to make clear was that ho .was doing nothing to prevent tho committoo from proceeding with the Bill. Ilather he was, inviting them to do so. He would move tliat tho Chairman do leave the chair. ■ . The Hon.' J. Rig'g said that Mr. Samuel had adopted a most. unusual courso in speaking and acting as a private member,, forgetting that-ho was Chairman of tho Committee! Mi\ Samuel: Functus officio., i Mr. Rigg urged that it was still the duty of Mr. Samuol, to submit to the Council tho findings of the committee, whether ho personally agreed with them or not. Now the Council would not have an opportunity of voting on the-proposals of tho committee. Not a single member 'of the committee had had tho courage to defend the report tho committee had brought down, and tho report was boing tossed aside in a manner which did not reflect credit on the committee. Tho Hon. J. Anstoy regretted that no opportunity had been given to tho Council to express ah opinion c-n proportional representation. He was, however, glad that the Bill had been defeated, because he was opposed to it, but he still believed that those who held other opinions should have an opportunity of voting on this proposal of the Bill. Tho Hon. 0. Samuol said he would not submit himself to bo baited in the Chair in charge of the committee's Bill. It was not at all necessary, lie said, for the chairman of a committee to move resolutions agreed to by a committeo. , Tho Hon.' J. Barr did not quite approvo of tho action of the Leader of tho Council. Ho thought some other opportunity should be given to the Council to deal with tho matter in the ether schemo submitted for the committee by Mr. Samuel. Ho would vote against tho motion, tho effect of which would bo tho end of the Bill. Mr. Loughnan: For this term. Mr. Barr: Yes, but I am only here for this term. The Hon. H. D. Bell said he hoped tho Council would at least allow the Government to withdraw a Bill which had been negatived in its important clause. As representing the Government, and as Leader of the Council, he accepted defeat, and he did not think tho Council should insist upon putting into a Government Bill something which the Government could not accept. The Hon. J. E. Jenkinson urged that tho Council ought not to allow the Chairman to leave tho chair if he were not to resume it again. Ho would not be ablo to move "his little Bill," which he liad prepared with the expenditure of much midnight oil. All his labour would go for nothing, and his Bill, he belioved, was one that would bo acceptable to tho Council and to the country. The Hon. G. Jones said he was very glad Mr. Carncross was to leave the Chair, and he hoped the Bill would never come up again. Tho motion that the Chairman leave

tho chair was not opposed, being carried on tho voices.

' :/ BILLS PASSED. The Laud Tax and Income Tax Bill, alltl tlio Land and Incomo Assessment Amendment Bill were committed, reimrtcd without amendments, read a third time, and passedThe Council rose at 4.14.p.m.