THE LOAN BILL.

Dominion, Volume 7, Issue 1869, 1 October 1913, Page 4

THE LOAN BILL.

OUR FINANCIAL POSITION REVIEWED.

LAW COSTS.

; WARD PARTY PAYMENTS DISCUSSED.

;;The Legislative, Council met at 2.30 p.m.

Tho Hon. It. A. lOUGHNAN gave notico of liia intention to move that th'o Department of Industries and Commerce bo' instructed to inquire into tie changes now being' mado in the United States tariff, and to inform the public of the,effect of them from time to. time

in reply to the Hon. Dr. Collins, tho. Hon. H. D. Bell said that the Gov-ernment'-:had "cominiiiiicated' with ' the Primp' Minister of New South Wales inquiring as to the benefits or otherwise accruing to publio health by reason 7 -. of:the!legislation permitting of $10 detention of prisoners suffering,, from venereal The •,.Nev% AVales Primo Minist'eri had-nqtCyet sent any' reply other than ' an'; acknowledgment of the letter, and a promise that the matter would receive his attention. Ho ; (Mr. Hell) agreed that the question was a serious one, and when the information.- came, .to hand he would be 'glad.to.confer with Dr. Collins. Poslie might,"- if he considered it desirable, introduce here legislation simi--1 lar-; to> that in force . in New South- , Wales. • •

A POINT OF ORDER. . j On the motion that the Christehiirch Electrical .Supply. Empowering Bill (the Hon. C. Louisson) lio committed, Tho-lion. S. THORNE - GEORGE raised a point of order. He askod Mr. Speaker ,to ,say o whether the Bill was or .was not a private Bill.-11t seemed to him that the Bill was not 'a Local Bill; hut a private ; Bill, 'and that as such-tho promoters ought to be required to"pfcy the required £25 in'fees.' The practice of putting private Bills through' as Local Bill's in order to escape the fees was'an increasingly common one. The Hon. 0. SAMUEL argued tliat as the Bill affected not private property but the public property vested in the Ch'ristchiurch City Council it was not properly speaking a private Bill. . Mr. . SPEAKER pointed out that the question was,'one whiohi could bo determified'by the Joint Committed on Bills, and h6 referred the question to . that committee.. •The Bill was therefore not committed. - ' . , TAXING BILL. ITS EFFECT UJN COMPANIES. . The Hon. H- D. BELL moved the second reading of the Land Tax and'lncome Tax Bill and explained very briefly the effect of it. The Hon. J. ANSTEY said he wished ito offer a few suggestions as to how hardships imposed upon, certain companies under this Bill could be reMr. Bell: There is no change in the of the taxation of companies ur.der this Bill.

Mr. Anstey said that co-operative companies with a very largo number of shareholders would be under a hardship. Ho know of one co-operative company ! which' would pay in graduated income tax £2100, and the total amount going to shareholders would be about £11,000. This was nearly' 20 per cent, of' taxation,-, and he thought this far too much. He urged that'the working of the graduation should bear somo relation to the • number of shareholders, for in many co-operativo companies shareholders frequently had an interest of £5 or some sr.cli small amount:

Mr. Boll: How do, you get your 20 per cont? One and fourpenco in tho pound is 6i per cent. 1 /' Mr. Anstey persisted'that.his figures wero correct. y.-.. '. ; - : .;

their contribution was not conimensurate with tho benefits they received. And between man and man in the community there must be fair play in the long run. All ought to contribute a fair proportion. Personally, he made no complaint about having to pay income tax. One of the main sources of revenue was liquor, but half of the people now were Prohibitionists. Was thero any reason why. a large section of the people should not pay a share towards the upkeep of tho country ?; He hoped that when next, the , Government wanted money, .they Would turn attention to this ..large '.'field 1 on which they might operate. ■Ho repeated his protest against the cry that the working people were paying tho bulk of taxation, when they paid very, little,' except for tobacco and drink. . He would not vote against the Bill, ,but he thought the matters he had mentioned should bo brought under the Government's notice. The Hon. J. E. JENKINSON said lie' could not take seriously Mr. Duthie's statement that workers did not bear their fair share of taxation. Minister's Reply. Tlie Hon. H. D. BELL, in reply to Mr. Anstey, said that no new system of taxing companies had been introduced in this Bill. The method of taxation was tho same as it had always been, but tho maximum tax was increased by twopence, from Is. 2d. to Is. id. in the pound. In reply to Mr. Rigg ho pointed out that in all countries it 'was admitted that the graduation in income tax must always stop at some' point. In 'Britain tho maximum was Jd. Unless the graduation., was hot stopped at a point at which it would not be felt as too oppressive, the tax would induce the formation of small companies in preference to largo ones. Mr. Duthie had said that the Bill imposed a tax on enterprise. - But was Is. 2d. in the pound a tax on enterprise? " Mr. Duthie: Yes, but this is a bigger one. • Mr. Bell replied that the Government 'had been faced with tho necessity of finding more revenue to meet increase] on tho expenditure side. Mr. Duthie: You mean pensions. Mr. Bell said' that pensions wero responsible for part of tho increase, and there were teachers' salaries still undealt with. Ho did not think that if ,bh© honourable gentlemen had been Minister of Finance, as ho might well havo beenliad !he been in another place, lie would have gone to tho Customs to increase his revenue. i

Tho Hon. -j. RIGG approved-of tho more e'quitablo graduations proposed .under tho Bill, which did away with many anomalies .existing under fhe old law. •Ho could not understand, however, why the graduated rato should stop at £2400 a year. It seemed to him. that the graduated tax stopped just where it" should go on, and ho was sure the Government could have gono much fairthor in tho taxation of largo incomes and in the imposition of a heavier graduated land tax on large estates. ThO Hon. ,C. M. LUKE . said it did', not • seem to him - fair that while small companies, earning' "a,.;. ..big .rato,' of' profit, wqidd he, taxed on tho higher schedule, it would'be possible for a largo company'to bo called upon to pay taxation, although tho profits wore.not of sufficient amount to permit of tho payment of dividends to shareholders. Ho thought tho tax 'should'bo charged only on profits distributed among' shareholders. A Tax on Entorprlse. Tho Hon. J. DUTHIE saW he did not think tho Council should pass.tho Bill without recording a protest- against ,i tho proposal it contained-to'impose a direct tax on enterprise. • Nothiug was so important to tho country as enterprise, and tho decay of enterprise of later years had been frequently remarked upon. ■ The time could not bo far distant when the country would havo to rely moro upon private enterprise, and it was unfair now to tax enterprise whilo so many things 1 wero passing untaxed. Tho taxation was unfair and would operate to prevent tho formation of ' now companies,' while wo would 1 have to roly moro and more upon companies for tho development of our industries and commerce. Ho could think of a company which had lost money for six years, and now it: was round tho corner and it would be liable to taxation under the Bill. Why should enterprise be loaded in this way? It was a populaii thing to say and to Sarp upon that the working classes oro tho bulk of taxation. He did not know-, whether members really gave consideration to this or whether they, repeated it as a parrot cry, but if .they would analyse the tariff they would find that' the working classes were bearing very little taxation indeed except for luxuries, such as tobacco, liquor, and certain drapery. The working man was very largely,free from taxation. Mr. Jenkinson: What about hoots?

Mr. Duthio admitted that a cortain numbor of boots were imported, but many were made in tho country. Tho.v were not paying taxation on the necessaries'of life, and in view of the privileges extended to them by way nf penalona. education, and oharitable aid,

flie second reading was agreed to on tho voices. LAND AND INCOME ASSESSMENT. The Hon. H. D. BELL moved the second reading of the Land and Income Assessment Amendment Bill. Tho Hon. j. ANSTEY commended tho Government on ha,ving introduced the Bill which embodied the now principle of relieving from taxation people with, families. , The Hon. ,C. H. MILLS also supported the Bill. The second reading was agreed to on the voices; , ' , The Council rose at i p.m.