REFORM BILL

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1863, 24 September 1913, Page 4

REFORM BILL

HON. J. D. OKMOND'S OPINION. BAD FOR THE COUNTRY. Tho Hop. J. D. ORSIOND resumed the debate on the motion that tho Council , go into Con\mittco on the .Legislative Council Bill. 'He spoko in commendation the work of the committee. Ho was not one of thoso who believed that there was any very strong opinion in tho country in favour, of a cliango in the: constitution of the 'Council. Undoubtedly tlicro had been educated up' some opinion opposed to tho nominativo system, and now.- even thoso members of the Council who beiievcd.that the nominativo system was ■ the best, had to give way and had to consider what would be the best clectivo system. ; '• He went' on tq discuss reasons which in bis opinion had led to the nominative system falling into disfavour.' 'When no cs>ered Parliament in 1861, Governments changed rapidly', and it . was tho accepted practice for . both .parties' to recognise signal services 'to . the country by . elevating to the Council. the men who had given those services irrespective of whether they ' iverb : political friends or- not. Tho result had been that .tho Council •consisted' of experienced politicians of exceptional ability; but when, tho Liberals-party came into office this good , rule had been departed "from, and, no single appointment had- been made outside tho ranks of 'the party. _ So far as his, ihomory served him, this was his belief,-but at any rate the great majority ofi-tjfe. appointments had been mado from-the'party. H© supported the draft Bill submitted by tho Hon. 0. Samuel, 'and ho ""disagreed entirely with all tho principal provisions of tho Government Jiill. Ho did not believe iru the big electorates, partly because men-elected by thorn would be unknown to the elec-tors-"aiid' because Alio fact that men representing big constituencies' would 1 claim':to havo the dominant power. A worso-/objection, however,_ would be that organisations in the big centres 'of population would carry .all the elections. Tho Bill would inflict a cruet ■wrong on tho country settlor, tho backwoodsman,.tho men who ;tfoftt .out into_thorwastes and'gavo -up tho indulgences. enjoyed' -by -the;- people in the towns,','for "these coutitry settlers werq debarred by. their circumstances., and occupations from protecting, tliomsolvcs in the'.-political struggle. Out of a recognition of this hatl arisen tho quota, 'but the quota disappeared under. the Government Bill. Ho wns.-suro the Government Bill woiild ; never bo carried. Referring to adverseVcriticism of the Committeo's recommendations, he assured tho Council that tlia Committee;,had no thought in framing thoir 'proposals for the election or members to fill vacancies,, of seeking to pferipetuate tho Council as it was at present' constituted. Ho hoped audi believed that the Government Bill, would yiot-pass, ajid he believed that tho Committee would be willing'to accept afiy reasonable amendments in .the •Bill they 'had' submitted/ fTHE HON. C. JONES. t • 1 ■ - C'biVSIDEES NO CHANGE' •:«. \ NECESSARY. Tho'Hon. G. JONES said tho speech of tho -Hon. J. D. .Onnond was such as might havo been expected from such a political veteran-, but his speech had been, somewhat.-tainted by party In-his-opinion it was .tho action of the old Continuous Government which had mado it necessary for. tho Liberal Gov- - ernmcnt to appoint partisans. • Th& gentlemen appointed, -under tho old 1-egim.o.' ; might havo been distinguished, but they woro all on ono siclo in politics,' and lie suggested that some of the: appointees or tho Liberal Government had not been strong party men. It seemed to him that no. ono iiisido or outsido of Parliament' wanted the Government Bill, and tho Com.mittee's' Bill was tho result of an attempt to avoid a-worse fate. All tho expedients proposed wero desiderate. Ho concurred' .witH Mv. Ormond in the opinion; that the Council had never forfeited tho country's goodwill. Mr., Jones insisted that.there wore no parties: in tho Council, and _ that tho Council had voted for principles, and not for men! " It was said that there was a strong demand for reform of the ' Council. "Ask the man in tho street," ho said, "what lie thinks of the Council Bill, and ho will say, 'What Bill?' " Mr. Paul: Ask him what ho thinks of the Council; . (Laughter.) ;.- _ Mr. Jones ,said thatithe > man in the street would be just as likely to say "What ■ G'bunciJ?" Tho man in the street "'eared'more for'.his "beer and ■ baccy" than for politics. The reason, to his mind, why the Council was not better known was that its proceedings wero not fully reported by tho newspapers of tho country. If there was to oe change,in tho'method of making appointments to tho Council ho would suggest that the_ Government should, after '©very election, nominate members to the Connpil. Then, presumably, tho'declaration of tho people's will would be given effect to. Mr. Luke: You would get too many. - Mr. Jones thought some such scheme could be worked. Mr. Bell: That's a change, isn't it? Sir. Jones said it was no departure from the schemo of nomination wliicl he had always supported.

THE HON. J. BARR

' FAVOURS DIRECT ELECTION. The Hon. J. BARR, as a member of the Committeo, defended the Committee from tho roproach that they had tried to hedge.' On the contrary, the Com-

mitteo had been entirely, in earnest. He intonded to support direct election by tho people. This he had always prejiously supported, and ho had heard nothing .at the Committee or in ' tho debate to change his opinion.- , The system of election proposed by tho committee would, it had been admitted, possibly give rise to log-rolling, and this condemned the system at once. Mudh had been mado of tho possibility of deadlocks arising involving tho two .houses, but was it beyond■ tho powers, of Parliament to draft proposals to overcome deadlocks? Mr/Jones, by admittiift that the people took no interest in the Council, had put forward one of the strongest possible arguments for direct election. Tho man in tho street should be put in tho position that ho would of necessity know something of tho -affairs of the Council. He objected to the Government Bill because of the big electorates proposed. He would like to see 21 members returned by tho North Island 'and 18 members by tho South Island. Three members could be returned by every constituency, which would mean that tliero would do six constituencies in tho South and seven in ±ho. North Island. In order to preserve continuity in tho Council there must bo a longer term than three years. An ideal term would be nino years, but it must not be less than six years." Constituencies nd' larger than those ' proposed, would make it possible for, voters to ■know tho man for whom thoy were voting, but under tho List system as proposed in the Bill an elector miglit he. -voting'for a man' whom "ho did not know from Adam," simply becauso lie was reputed to belong to a certain party. The effect of tho operation of tho system of proportional representation was too problematical, and lie was not oven sure' that it would give effect to !the will.. Ho did not believe the proportional method of voting would bo a suitable system for tlio election of the Lcgislativo Council Tho proportional representation system was based on i party divisions, regardless -of all other considerations, and it was therefore unsuitablo for the election of a Second Chamber supposed to be a deliberative body. Rather it should be made to' apply to tho House of Representatives, the party Chanber. " Lot them bo tho dog for tho time being," lie suggested. , : - ■ HON. J. T. PAUL. AGAINST-! THE COMMITTEE P.RO- - Believed that :to have an effective Second Chamber all tho interests should bo represented, and that to gain that end' proportional representation was necessary. Ho did not say -this..'.because ho thought proportional representation would benefit the Labour party; ho did not think it would benefit' Labour more than| any. other.,section.. It was not perfect; but it ' was . the'best yet. • He was sorry to, see "tho weakening of the pillars of Reform," ; who set out to completo a system which would have been .ono of the most democratic of measures. ' Among "the pillars of Reform," :he mentioned newspaper editors, politicians, and others. A great deal of tho "scaro" arose from tho fright vested interests got- over the Senate elections in Australia. Continuing, Mr. Paul said that ho had been much impressed with the speech of the Hon. J. D. Ormond-*— n<j't that ho agreed with him; ho did not. - > There was among the public a real desire for a reform of the Council. The Council had not the standing it ought to have, and it would not havo that standing until it was brought closer to the .people, mado one of the people's institutions. Mr. Paul expressed himself as totally opposed to an electoral college. Tho country settlers would bo fairly represented under tlie Government's Bill. He repeated that tho Bill would give proper ■ representations to the country. Ho disagreed with the finding of the committee. In his opinion, the decision was an absurd one which could not bo justified to tho country. LEADER OF THE COUNCIL. GOVERNMENT BILL HOLDS THE FIELD. Tho LEADER of the COUNCIL (Hon. 11. D. Bell), said that the Government Bill held the fiold; there was nothing - bearing.vsemblanceofcompetition. Tho Bill held the field not only as a prinjjiplo, but as a method by which the Council should exist. This was not a rJero boast; it was sliown by tho action of the Co'uncil, by the debate, and most of all by tho proceedings of tho Committee. If they admitted that the Committee was chosen by tho Council as a representative 'body of its members, and it expressed tho' opinions of its members, and presented tlie-result of , its sittings, they came back to tho initial question of what tho Council deemed .to be necessary in the way of roform of its constitution. Until recently tho Council wore practically unanimous for changc. How • many ■ wore going back now that thoy saw the result of that, he did not know. He had been both surprised and pleased— pleased because it proved the case for him—to find that lion, gentlemen who wore willing to consent with practical unanimity that tliero should bo chango from nomination to election wero now .foiling that they had committed themselves. They were feeling tho position because thoy found that what they said was true. Tho Hon. Mr. Ormond aiid tho Han. Mr; Stevens had not changed their opinions. Tho dividing issue was that of election direct by tho people, or election by an- electoral collego. Search as they would, they could not find any other posiblo doctoral collego than the two Houses.

A voice: Local bodies have been suggested; Another voice:. Road boards! Mr. Uoll (smiling): Yes—road boards 1 1 say, search as you will, you can't find a way; Another member: The, AVard Government suggested local- bodies. Mr. Bell: They did nothing of the kind. The AVard Government suggested provincial councils .... for tho purpose of performing tho useful office of relieving the Government of making nominations. Mr. Hell. continuing, said that under a system of direct election by the people Councillors would be answerable to their constituencies. . AVliat man desorved election who did not seek election ? II was part of our Parliamentary fife that they held places who sought them. It

was extraordinary that it should bo thought that there was something novel in tho proposal, and ho referred to tho case of Australia. Respecting proportional representation, he mentioned what tho Imperial Parliament had done regarding Africa and Ireland. Ho was content to stand by the judgment of tho Imperial Parliament as against the judgment of those who said that this was an untried experiment. Many of tho opponents of proportional representation had not bothered to study tho question. It was incorrect to say that a particular party could get an unfair advantage. Take an electorate of 80,000 returning eleven members. Tho quota would bo 7000. In- that electorate a combination, of 30,000 could not elect more than four representatives. When a. party exercised the strength to elect one man it lost that strength. Hon. J. D. Ormond: Tho next organisation would come -in, and then tho noxt, and tho next. Mr. Bell regretted that the proposal hold the field "alone. Ho could not conceive that thoy would put into tho Bill what Messrs. Samuel or Jenkinson had proposed. 1 In fact, lio did not think that Mr. Jenkinson was serious. If the Council 'would not pass any form of Bill the sooner tliey got a Bill from the otlior House the better. Ho declared again that, tho Government was 111 The Council went into Committeo on tho Bill, and progress was reported. The Council rose at 10.6 p.m.