ON THE ESTIMATES.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1860, 20 September 1913, Page 4

ON THE ESTIMATES.

COST OF DEFENCE. • GARRISON OFFICERS' CLUB. MINISTER'S DECISION. The House went into Committee of Supply on the Defence Estimates at 3.8 p.m. ' • Mr. G. Witty directed attention to the increased amount of commissioned officers' salaries, which showed an increase of about £4000 as compared with last year. Tho Hon. James Allen replied that an alteration in tho amount set down for three colonels was accounted for by the facts that last year one of these salaries had been for a part of tho year, and that ono lieutenant-colonel had been promoted to colonel. Other increases were due to promotions in accordance with 'the financial regulations',, and nine officers liad been promoted from non-commissioned rank.

iUr. iv. iuuvju-uum v,Htin«iu/ uiow **utention to tlio way camps had been forced. The preparation and equipment of some of tlio camps wcro unsatisfactory, and illness had resulted. The ■scheme was being rushed, although there ivas 110 immediate danger of an invasion. Carrlson Officers' Clubs. Mr. J. Robertson (Otaki) inquired about the friction that had arisen in connection with tho Garrison Officers' Club in Wellington.' Tho holding of a ballot for admission to such clubs had been prohibited, but the order had been broken. Suoh disobedience must havo a bad effect on the whole force. Every vestige of clasß distinction should be avoided for the oountry would not tolerate it. Even now there was thought to be too much class and caste amongst tho officers. Mr. G. Laurenson (Lyttelton) also referred to tho matter, and said that tho man who had been refused admitanco was still being excluded from the club. unauthorised Expenditure. The Hon. J. Allen said that about £30,000 had been paid out of unauthorised expenditure last for defence purposes. Referring to' tho camps, it liad been found necessary to hold somo of tho <camps rather lato. - 110 was aware that tho cooking had not been of tho best, and it would not bo so till they had the services of a trained staff of. cooks, now being organised. Lieutenants, on leaving the Military College, would receive £160 a year, and £180 at the end of two years. The sum they would go to was £220. In relation to tho "Wellington Garrison Officers' Club, the position was that that club had a room in tho Department's buildings. They saw fit to exclude an. officer who, in his opinion— (hear, hear)—had a perfect right to join tho club. It was true that he wasnot popular with the other officers, but officers must recognise the_ principle that anyone wearing His Majesty's uniform should be entitled to join. Tho club had been told that tho.v must either vacate the rooms or admit tho officer. They had chosen, ho believed, to accopt the latter alternative, . and woro leaving the premises. They would not be allowed any building of tho Department unless they accepted the principle that officers' clubs must bo open to every officer wearing tho uniform. Camp Supplies. Mr. J. A. Young (Waikato) drew attention to the methods of tho Department in providing provisions for camps. At a recent camp held in tlio Waikato he believed tho chaff had been brought i f"im the South Island, and tho butter

I from Wellington. Both things could have been provided on the very farm where tho camp was held. Ho thought thero was deeided room for improvement in tho method of calling for tenders for camp supplies. Mr. G. J. Anderson (Mataura) held that adjutants should not have sole power of releasing Territorials from attending camp. If tho defence system was being conducted on the lines which Iris experience had indicated, thero was a very good cbaneo of tho I people getting sick of it. At present the drills and eamps wero not suitable, and more care should be exercised. 110 advocated a system of permanent camps, wherein each Territorial could put in liis training at his convenience. Mr. E. 11. Clark (Chalmers) thought it most unfair that stores for camps should bo brought from one island into tho other. ■ The people of tho district should bo given a chance. Ho also urged that camps should be placed near water, to avoid tho expense of bringing it in fiom long distances and at tho cost of hundreds of pounds. In cases where r.nly one hall was available, Mr. Olarko considered tho Territorials should be allowed to drill on different nights to the cadets. He urged that unsalaried officers should bo granted a free railway pass for one month in the year. Bad Language In Gamps. ■ Mr. H. J. H. Okoy (Taranaki) asked tho Minister whethor it was not possible to cut down tho cost of the defence scheme. Ho protested also that the administration of tho Defence Department was unbusinesslike, and that members of Parliament had great difficulty in securing information- about camps and otlier matters. Ho had been informed on good authority, ho stated, that in some camps there was a great deal of bad languago after "lights out." 110 considered that tho officers' quarters should be nearer to the main camp than was usual at present, and there was need of stricter supervision and control. Mr. J. Dickson (Parnell) entered a protest against the conduct of some of the camps, and to the methods followed by tho Defence Department in procuring stores. Numbers of men. he stated, liad been sent into-camp without greatcoats or waterproof sheets. Ho had beard that thero was a good deal of bad languago at tho "refresher" camp some weeks ago at Palmerston North. Most of tho officers at this camp had lived at tho Club Hotel instead of sleeping in the camp. Mr. Payne: They want wrapping up in cotton-wool I Mr. Dickson said that some of tho English officers attending the Palmerston camp had spent most of their timo upon tho golf-links. Mr. W. H. D. 801 l (Wellington Suburbs) said that personally bo would not mind if tho defenco scheme cost £600,000 provided value was obtained for every pound. His view was that the system had to bo maintained whatever it cost. At first thore was bound to bo leakage and waste at tho inception of tho system, but this could be corrected, and economical working attained as time went on. Sir. J. Bollard (Eden) said that his experience of Territorial camps was somewhat different to that of other honourable gentlemen. During the summer he had had a camp of 000 mounted men within ten chains of his houso, and throughout the period of the camp they conducted themselves like gentlemen. He considered that tlieso men wero a credit to tho Territorials. / Mr. L. M. Isitt said that he had been informed that'at a South Island parado an officer drilling Territorials had used languago too bad for him to repeat in the House. Thoy wero not going t-3 stand that sort of thing. (Hear, hear.) Ho maintained that t-lioro had been unfair discrimination in tho matter of prosecutions for breaches of tho Defenco Act. Keeping Down Expenses. The Hon. Jas. Allen said that the object of tho Department was to run camps as economically as thoy could. If supplies oould bo obtainod more cheaply from ono island than from the other it was tho bounden duty of tho Department to obtain them there. ■ Ho denied that military men were incapablo of displaying business ability. There had been a clear saving of £5000 upon tho expenditure oil camps last year, partly through transporting supplies in some instances from ono island to the other. Mr. Hino: A saving on what? Tho Minister: On what tho camps would have cost under tho old conditions. It would not bo wise, tho Minister contended,. to increase at the present time, the annual period of training ill camp. To give the whole of tho training in camp would bo cheaper itlian the present system of drills and camps. Tho cost of the system last year and this year was approximately £500,000 annually. This year £50,000 or £60,000 was uou-recurriug expenditure.

Mr. J. A. Hanan (Invercargill) said there was a- strong feeling iu tlio country that waste was going on in the Defenco Department. Thero was need for concern, bccauso if tho expenditure was to increase it would presently become so liugo that the system would break down. Tho Minister must keep a tight hold on Defenco expenditure, and thore was no doubt that savings could be effected.

The Hon. J. Allen said he was ajixious to mako savings and ho would weloome suggestions as to how they could be effected. Ho was not anxious to save at the expenso of efficiency, however. Tho annual cost of tho schenio was now about £400,000, and ho thought tho annual expenditure ought not for some time to increase moro than £50,000 above this. There would, however, bo another instalment of from £50,000 to £60,000 of non-recurrent expenditure next year, and ho hoped this would bo tho last for some while. Complaints had been made about liquor and bad Liuguage in camps. Ho was not going -to say'that'liquor was not sometimes clandestinely introduced into camps, or that thero was not bad language in camps, but tho Commandant and his staff woro extremely anxious to put a stop to both evils, and wore doing their best to do so. With regard to camps in tho country and tho difficulties about men getting away from work to attend tliem, if, as was suggested, men. in tho country were willing to como into camp for three weeks at one timo ho would very favourably consider it. Mr. L. M. Isitt asked whether it would not bo possible to mako it illegal for Territorials in uniform to be on licensed premises. Tlio Hon. J. Allen said he was quite prepared to administer tho Act in that way if the House desired. Exploited Territorials. Mr. C. • A. Wilkinson _ (Egmont) complained of the high prices charged to troops for commodities sold at the dry canteens in camps. He suggested that tho Department should run the stores at camps, and charge the lowest possible prices. He stated also that ho believed a good deal of indiscriminate prosecution was going on in tho country. He hoped the Department would consider tbo advisability of sending instructors further out into the country districts to obviate tho necessity piit -upon youths of travelling vorv long distances to centres for training. In reply to Mr. G. Forbes, the Hon. J. Allen said that tho proposed expeditionary force would consist of Territorials who would volunteer for servico abroad 1 when tho timo arrived. Tbo only equipment they would need would bo "tho present kit supplied to Territorials and the equipment which they should liavo bub which they had not yet got.' The first lino of transport in our owii country would' have to be organised'for our wholo force. No additional eipeßßG would bo incurred on.

account of tho expeditionary force. Tlho importation of officers would cea«o a's soon as enough Now Zealand oflicora wore available.

Mr. G. V. Pearco (Patca) contended that it would bo a mistake to send instructors into remote country districts. It would- be far hotter to giro tho boys a few extra dnvs in camp. An instructor camo to drill four lads in one of his (Mr. Pearce'ji) paddocks. This sort ol thing was an absolute farce and involved needless expense. Mr. T. M. Wilford- asked whether it was true that.-goods were sent south from Wellington as far as Duuedin for camps, and if so wily was it necessary to do so! J

The Hon. J. Allcra repeated that the practico of the Department was to buy in tho cheapest market, and that as a result tlioy had saved £5000 last year. More About tho Officers' Club. 11l reply to Mr. Laurenson tho Hon. Jaß. Allen repeated bis previous statement on the subject of the Wellington Garrison Officers' Club. Mr. Witty asked whother the lecturers which had hitherto been delivered under the auspices ofHho club would be discontinued now that it had vacated tho room provided by the Department. Mr. Allen said that ho hoped not. The room could st-ill lie used for lectures provided all officers were admitted who wished to attend. Mr. Witty: They should bo compeljed to go back. They must bo 6ulking, I think. Mr. Allen: I can't compel them. Mr. J. Robertson '(Otaki) said that at tho timo of' tho blackballing of an officer who sought to enter the Wellington Garrison Officers' Club tho officer in question had laid a charge against another officer, a member of the club, upon which' he had since stood his trial. Tlio officer charged took part in tho ballot. Roplving to questions, tho Hon. J. Allen said the tenders for uniforms wero submitted to tho Tenders Board; a body of experts constituted by Act, and a body of which tho Minister was not a member. In somo items tho successful tendorer was lower than all tho others, and in some a littlo higher, but tho total result was that tho man who ultimately recoived the tender was rather lower in the aggregate than all the rest. Tho clothing could not all ho supplied at once, and as the uniforms wero required first-, they wore mado first, and an extension of timo was given to tho manufacturer in respect of overcoats.

Tho total'Defenco vote was passed at 5.68 p.m.