THE COMMISSIONERS.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1854, 13 September 1913, Page 6

THE COMMISSIONERS.

HEIR RELATION TO PARLIAMENT THE SPEAKER'S RULING. . The mem'betr for Avon and other icmbers of the Opposition spoke of the lme subject a-s tiiey did last week on 10 Estimates, declaring that they had iscovered an anomalous position in tile ilation of Parliament and the Governicnt on the 0110 hand and tlio 'üblio Service Commissioners on the thcr. They said in.effect that Parljaicnt could bo over-ridden by the Comlissioners, and that Parliament was "asting time in passing estimates dealig with salaries. It was explained ? tlio Minister in charge (Mr. Fraser) hat tho Commissioners could not spend single shilling or pay a salary which ad not been passed by Parliament, 'lie salaries passed in the general Estilates would be paid, but tho increases o bo paid, provided for in the Commisionors' classification list, could not be aid until Parliament had ratified them y passing the Supplementary Estilates. Parliament reserved full conrol of the purse, and the Commissionrs were responsible to Parliament. Anally, the argument was stopped by lie Chairman. He said he was assured hat tho Estimates were those of tlio !ovornment,'and that the Commissionrs had nothing to do with them, and his being so, he ruled that he could iot permit discussion of the genera) lowers of the Commissioners to- coninuo on the Estimates. Irrelevance. Mr. G. W. Russell argued that if this .'as so, tho Government had not acted egally, in that the Public Service Act o.mo into forcc on April 1, and under t the Commissioners should have draftd the salaries' schedules. He moved hat the Speaker's ruling bo taken on lie question of whether tile Chairman lad ruled rightly that lie was out of irder in referring to the Commissioner. Tile Hon. W. F. Massey said he vould offer no objection to tlio motion, >ut ho thought the Chairman had ihown patience in dealing with lie discussion. Mr. Malcolm said he would have to nforni Mr. Speaker that ho had ruled lie member for Avon out of order, oil Jin , i;vo n>id that lvul been discussing natter that wan irrelevant. Mr. Russell (amid cries of protest Torn the Opposition): I protest against ;liat. I will put my motion in writing. Tha Facts Stated. When Mr. Speaker took his seat, Mr. Malcolm said that in tho consideration of the Estimates of tho Mines Department during the afternoon an attempt had been mado to bring up _the question of "tlio powers of the Civil fecifice Commissioner in regard to the fixing of salaries. Ho had stopped lion, gentlemen .from going lengths on that subject. The same question had cropped up again, .and on being assured by the Minister that the Estimates were not the Estimates of the Commissioners, but of the Government, ho had told hon. gentlemen that they could not any longer pursue the question of tho relation of Civil Service Commissioners to the Estimates. The member for Invercargill was speaking when ho ruled. Tho member for Avon followed, and pursued the same line of argument. Ho stopped tli4 hon. member, but lie (Mr. Russell) wont on, and he (Mr. Malcolm) ruled liim out of order on the ground of irrelevancy. He reminded Mr Speaker that on a previous occasion Mr. Speaker had ruled that in Committee the Chairman must be the judge of relevancy, and that his decision must not bo reviewed. "Sorry, Very Sorry." . Mr. G. W. Russell said he was sorry, very sorry, to have to challenge tlio accuracy of the statement of tlio Chairman. Tho word "irrolevanco" was not montioned- — Government members: Ye 3, yes. Mr. Russell: until he had moved that tho Speaker's ruling should bo taken. Then Mr. Milcolm said he would inform Mr. Speaker that lie had ruled the hon. member out of 'order on the ground of irrelevance; and tlio statement was met "with a roar of contempt." Ho was discussing a legal question, and the word irrelevance was nevor mentioned until the Chairman was putting his (Mr, Russell's) motion that tho Speaker f ruling be taken, wlion he (Mr. Malcolm, said lie had ruled on tho ground of irrelevancy. . Ho (Mr. Russell) at once objected l to tho statement. He went on to discusf tho point on which he asked th< Speaker's Tilling. Under tho Public Service Act, 1912, it was provided thai the Act should como into fofce or April 1, 1913. It lia,4 therefore com< into forco three months before Parlia. mcoit met, and over five months ago Under the Act it was laid down that ir tlio general division officers should be paid salaries according to a fixed scab as determined by the Commission® and authorised by Parliament. . He luu pointed out that in many respects t u classification and salaries allotted bv tn< Commissioners differed from the salaries fixed bv the Government. It had beei stated'that tho Estimates were tin Estimates of tho Government, but Ji< said the Government had no right t< bring down Estimate* dealing with tni salaries of officers of the Public Service That was the law, and yot ho was .re fused the right to discuss tho questioi of whether tho Estimates bcei determined by the Commissioners ''This irrelevancy," he continued "which tlio Chairman .Is an after thought said was the question to b put to you." . Mr. Allen: You have no right to sa, that of the Chairman. . Mr. Russell: I am dealing with tni matter as calmly and dispassionately a I can He repeated that the Chairma had never said, that he was irrelevant but the ma,in question he wished to hav settled was that of the constitution? relationship of tho Commissioner# 1 Pwliamont, and bo wantodi to ee

whether the law was being carried out a bv the Government. v tl Accuracy Challenged. , tl Tho Hon. W. F. Massey: I regret It very much having to challenge the fi accuracy of the very unfortunate state- b ment just made by tho member for a "Avon. Mr. Russell had said, lie con- s tinned, that tho Chairman did not use the word "irrelevant" until after Mr. q Russell had moved his motion. Ho (Mr. Massey) had no hesitation in saying that Mr. Malcolm used tho words jj many minutes previously. His attention had been drawn to this, and ho j, noticed it particularly, because g when a similar trouble was j. raised previously Mr. Malcolm did not guse the word. Mr. Malcolm had used t tho word in connection with the statement of Opposition members that tho j Estimates were those of tho Commissioners and not thoso of the Government. As to the powers of tho Commissioners anyone who knew the Constitution Act knew perfectly well that tho Estimates wero not those of the ComI missioncrs. They wero tho Estimates of the Government submitted to Parliament in tho usual. way.. Parliament " had 110 power to increase the Estimates, h but it never had had the power, and x it had no less power now than it had C beforo tho Commissioners were ap- d pointed. i Mr. J. A. Hanan also discussed c the legal aspect of the relationship of C the Commissioners to Parliament. _ p The Hon. J. A. Alleu said that in tho Mines Estimates, or .any of the I Estimates, there was not 0110 word of t rcferenco to tho Public Service Com- o missioncrs. Tho House had been, as- 1: sured by the Minister for Mines and himself that tho Estimates had been t prepared in the samo way as tho Esti- t mates had been framed for the last 40 ( or 50 years. It was quite true that tho Public' Service Act was in force, and q that tho Public Service Commissioners wore preparing schedules of salaries, s but not do it at once, and i; the work was not completed yet. He went on to say that the member for Avon was irrelevant. Mr. Russell: Did he say I was irre- o levant? Mr. Allen: It doesn't matter a rap 1 to me whether he said so or not. Mr. Russell: Did ho use the wordP I Mr. Allen: Yes, he did, and I heard a liim. c Mr. Russell: To me? Mr. Allen: Yes, to you. Mr. M'Callum: No; you are mistaken. Mr. Allen declared finally that the 1 discussion had been irrelevant, and had c been a waste of public time. ■ Mr. G. Witty maintained that tho J word irrelevant had not been used. , ' The Hon. W. Eraser said that tho * word "irrelevant" had certainly .been used, and also the Chairman had ruled ' tho member for Invercargill out of order j because ho was speaking of tho Commis- 1 sioners, when the Commissioners had ( nothing to do with the Estimates. Then 1 the member for Avon had tried to tako . the Speaker's ruling on quite a different ] question. • ! The Other Issue. The Hon. A. T. Ngata said tho re- ' collection of members on his side of tho House was as vivid as that of the * . Ministers, and it was Jihat the Chair- ' man did not uso the word "irrelevant." ' Mr. Eraser: Ho did. I heard him. Mr. Ngata repeated that the Chair- ' man had not used tho word, but that he (Mr. Ngata) believed that tho Chairman had based his ruling on irrelevanco. Mr. Allen: Then that | settles tho i point. i Mr. Ngata then went on to discuss ' tho larger question on which Mr. Russell had sought to get the opinion of i tho Speaker. Varying Testimony. 1 1 A number of members spoko to the i question, the members on the Government side saying that the word "irrele- ; vanco" had been used, and the members ; en tile Opposition side saying that it had not. 'i'o this statement there was one notablo exception. Mr. H. Poland, Opposition member lor Ohinomuri, said that ho distinctly remembered tho Chairman having~"u3cd tho word twice. The wider question of the powers of -tho Commissioners was discussed by several speakers, Tho Hon. W. F. Massey quoted the Constitution Act to sjiow that no Commissioner, and no other person, could approach the Governor, except his Excellency's advisers, for authority to submit tho proposals for the expenditure of money to Parliament. Mr. Malcolm quoted from Hansard proofs to show that ho had used tho word "irrelevant," and tho proof boro cut his statemeut that lie had used it in speaking to Mr. Hanan. He had asked for authority to get Mr. Itussell's Hansard proof, but Mr. Russell had refused permission on the ground that the report was only a condensed one. Leader of tho Opposition. Sir Joseph Ward said that tho question of irrelevancy was of no consequence. It" was also quite clear that no one could approach the Crown for au- , thority to expend money except , tho Ministers, but tho Com- . missioners made recommendations, i and the Government submitted those recommendations to Parliament in tho ; Estimatos. This should not bo dono now, i because tho recommendations were not [ ready, and it seemed' to him tho pro- . per course for tho. Governmcnt to have • followed was to withdraw the Estimates . and to withhold them from the House . until the Commissioners had prepared their final schedule. If not, the effect ' would bo that the House would have no opportunity of discussing tho case ■ of a meuibor of the Civil Service who had his salary reduced by tho Commissioners, because only tho increases would appear in tho Supplementary . Estimates. In his opinion the proper t thing for the Government to do was to withdraw the main Estimates—(Government laughter)—and hold them over 1 until all the appeals had been heard, and then bring clown tho in I globo. The point of the whole thing was: "Were these Estimates the Estif mates of tho Commissioners ?" v t Tho Prime Minister: No. Sir J. Ward: Then,'if they ore not ] they ought to be. 1 Mr. Ell: They are not legal! Sir J. Ward repeated that the Esti--3 mates ought to bo thoso of the Commis- \ sioners. If this was not so, surely _ the course thoy wero pursuing was an illegal one? I Perfectly Plain Position. e The Hon. A. L. Herdman said c that the Public Service Act of last year t made tho whole thing perfectly plain, n (Opposition laughter.) Tho Opposition e might vote against the Estimates if they - wished to prevent tho Public Servants i. from getting their salaries. Tho duty n of tho Commissioners under the statute e was to classify the officers and to fix o their salaries. It became tho duty r of tho Minister for Finaneo to provido d tho amounts voted by the House, and e ultimately, in tho Act, o to provido a sum sufficient to pay the ® salaries fixed by the Commissioner. If 111 honourable gentlemen objected to any 0 of tho salaries fixed, they had their o remedy—they could vote against tho 0 Estimates. _ (Opposition jeors.) If 0 they dosired to prevent any member of tho Servico or the whole of them getting their salaries II they could voto .against tho Estimates. " The member for Awarua knew quite j; well that money _ could not be spont > until tho Appropriation Act was passed. r " That was the final Act in the Assembly 1 which authorised the Government to spend the money in the Estimates. Tho y classification list had beon laid on the j s tablo of tho House, and members had 1S then had an opportunity of discussing n any of its details. If members oppo- . site said that there was anything illegal •c or improper in tho procedure followed nl .the statement was absolutely wrong, enntriuy to fpet,' and not truo Bin to jo meat of tho law* ■ The position was

jsolutely clcar under the Public Scree Act. ■ Finally, Mr. Herdman paid lat no difficulty had arisen in any of 10 Australian States where similar gislation was in existence. Every icilit.y of criticising the salaries fixed r thfi Commissioners liad always been [forded in the Legislatures of these tatos. Mr. Myers: Is tho Public" Sorvico Act lorative or not at tho present timoP Mr. Herdman: Of course, it is. Mr. Myers: Then I think that will elp the Speaker. Mr. Colvin quoted from tho circular isued by tho Public Service Commisioner, a statement that ho would short- • mnko an announcement regarding the ilaries and allowances of cadets, and :iat meanwhile those who had been reviving £40 per annum would receive 50. . . , . A member: That is classification! THE SPEAKER'S RULINC. CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES UPHELD. Mr. Speaker now rose to rule. The first question I havo to decide," e said, "is what I havo to rule upon, understand from tho Chairman of ommittees that he stated clearly and istinctly that he ruled tho honourable lember for Avon, out of order on acaunt of irrelevance. I would like tho fhairman to state exactly how it was ut to the Committee." The Chairman: I put it—"The matter shall have to refer to Mr. Speaker is jat I ruled tho honourable gentleman ut of order on the ground of using inguage irrelevant to the question." Mr. Russell: As mover of the motion liat your ruling bo taken I say that liat statement is absolutely incorrect. Uproar.) . , J >. Mr. Speaker again asked how tho uestion. was put to the Committee. Mr. Russell said that the Chairman imply put it: "That the Speaker's rulig be taken." Mr. Fraser: Oh, no; certainly not I Mr. Russell: On the second occasion. Mr. Speaker (reading): "On account f language irrelevant to the question." Mr. Russell: That is what caused the proar. Mr. Speaker: A large number of memors of tho House have stated again ud again to mo that tho Chairman id u?o those words. Mr. Russell: Not to me, Bir. • Mr. Young: He did. Mr. Speaker: "I. want to know what have to rulo upon. Is it tho pleasure f tho Houso that I should rule upon he question relating to tho Public Serice? I shall givo that ruling to tho iest of my ability, but I don't think hat . ' Mr. Russell: Tho point I Taised was he right of the Houso to discuss Subection 2 of Clause 22. of the Public Servico Act, and I was reading that lauso at the time the Chairman stopped ae. . ' . ' Mr. Speaker: I am going to ask if it s the pleasure of the House that I hould rule upon this second question. Tho Primo Minister: What is the [uestion? / Mr. Speaker: The questions whether .Tie Public Service Commission can be liscussed on the Mines Department EsThe Prime Minister: What about the irst question ? The Other Point. Mr. Speaker: I ruled last night that t (tho first question)' was quite out of irdcr. I can't in any way interfere vith the Chairman's decision. Mr. Russell: I accent that. It was ;o raise the other point. Tho Primo Minister: , I think wo ihonld have your ruling, sir. Mr. Speaker: .1 havo listened very :arefully to tho points pub before me his evening, and I havo no lesitation in- saying that when the Mines Department Estimates arc under lisciission a member is- not at liberty tc liscuss the Public Service Commission, 'Hoar, hear. Thero is a class later or apon which tho Commission can be discussed. These were the Mines Estimates and not tho Public Servico Commissioner's Estimates. The clause pointud out to him read: "Shall bo determined by the Commissioner.' _ Ihe Government assured, him that this had nol been determined bv ihe Comnussioner Ho ruled that tho salaries fixed by th< Public Service Commission could not.bi discusscd, but only items on tho clasi that was being dealt with. A Belated Adjournment. It was now 10 p.m. and the Speakei said that tho usual half-hour adjourn ment would be taken. Ho would firsdeclare the Houso in Committee. Sir Joseph Ward said that the rulin; was a most important one and ho bowei to it. As, however, Parliament was tin protector of individual members of thi Public Service, ho wished to ask wha tho position would bo (in view of tin Speaker's ruling, which he accepted) o an officer of the Mines Department i his salary jvero reduced and it did no come before Parliament on the Esti mates. Mr. Spoakor said that the Estimate must be considered as they came befor the Houso. Any alteration.. mUBt b doalt with afterwards. Mines Inspector. When consideration of the Mines De partment Estimates was resumed a 10.30 p.m., Mr. T. E. Y. Seddon moved to r« duce an it-cm by £1 as an indicatio: that n retirod mines inspector al Hokitika should be replaced. Ho cor tended that the Department was ask ing one man to do two men's work. Th mining industry in Westland noeded tbo. fostered in every possible way am one inspector should not be asked tdo the whole of tho work from Col lingwood down to Hokitika. The motion was defeated on the voices Commissioners Again. Mr. Ell asked why cadets in th Mines. Department had had their sal aries increased from £40 to £50. Mr. Fraser said that tho Estimate carried tho ordinary scale increase. Mr. Ell contended that the Publi Servico Commissioner and not the Mir ister was responsible for tho increast He went on to road a circular issuo by tho Public Service Commissioner. The Chairman rulo dthat this wa irrelevant. To another question by Mr. Ell, th Minister said that tho increases ha been made in accordance with the rul in force for years past. They were th Government Estimates. Mr. Ct.' Witty said that tho Estimate might have been through hours befoi if the Minister had complied with th law. Mr. P. C. Webb suggested that th Government ought to pay mines inspet tors elected by the miners. These chec inspectors were a necessity, he said, b< cause the Government Inspectors di not carry out their work as diligent] as they 'should. It was, ho said, di; to tho laxity of the Government Inspectors that the Brunner minos were permitted to bo worked to destruction and flooded. , ' The first itom of the class, Mines Department £6355, was passed at 11 p.m. Tho next item was Geological Survey £5140. prospecting. Mr. W. D. S. Mac Donald urged that tho vote for geological survey should bo increased in order that new work, especially for further search for oil-fields, could 'bo undertaken. Dr. A. IC. Newman urged.that somo prospecting ought to be done in Wellington province, whore the resources in oil and natural gas were quite as good as ill any other part of New Zealand. There was good brown coal both on tho Manawatu and Wairarapa sides, and he bnliow) uatb.rupilo coal lwl beenfound in Wairvapa. Tlioro wm sold, too, m.

the Kainianawas, which had been quite •unprospectad. Marble was to bo found in many placos, and there wero manganese deposits too. Ho hoped the Government would spend 891110 money 111 prospecting the Wellington district. Tho HOll. W. Fraser reminded Mr. Mac Donald that the country round Gisborno had been well tested, but the country beyond that needed surveying. Ho would iiko to see a bigger staff for geological survoy, and to seo moro camps established, but wo could not afford to do mora in New Zealand than necessary. After all, tho crying need in New Zealaild was for roads and bridges, and until that demand could bo satisfied not much moro could be at- • tempted in tho way of geological sur- rj %< The HOll. A. T. Ngata expressed satisfaction tliat tho country north of Gisborne, which was reported to bo oilbearing, was boing prospeoted. On tho item Miscellaneous Services, £22 355 Mr. 11. J. H. Okey complaihed of tho 1 reduction of ttie bonus on mineral oil. 1 Tho Hon. W. Fraser said tliero was ( no intention on tho part of tho Govern- £ ment to go back on any promise mado by their predecessors, but tho amount set forth in the Estimates was lower t than usijal because it was thought this j would bo all that would be claimed by ] way of bonus this year. , ] Miners' Complaint. 1 Tho mombors representing mining • districts raised another discussion on j tho subject of pneumoconiosis.- Mr. 5 IV C. Webb stated that ono of tho , greatest factors tending to produco this ] complaint was the contract system in ■ mines. He had seen strong men reduced in a few years to walking skele- 1 tons. Ho had seen contractors f° rc ® ; men back to work before the dust had , time to settle. Tho greatest cause or miners' complaint was tho contract system. 'It would be an act of humanity on tho part of the present Government , to bring in a Bill which would entitle the victiniß of miners' complaint to compensation under the Workers Compensation Act. In its later stages the complaint developed into a fonn or consumption and became infectious. it. had been known to spread from individuals to wholo families. Mr. T. W. Rhodes (Thames) said that unless something was dono the diseaso would spread to an enormous extent. Moro should bo done for tho people who wero already suffering trom tho disease. Ho know of cases in which peoplo had been laid aside from work by miners' complaint; and yet nail not been compensated ■to any appreciablo extent. . 1 ano Tho Minos Vote was passed at U.ZA 3 'liio Committee then proceededl to Department of Internal Affairs. £331,303. Several members contended that tho Government Statistician w-as quately paid with a salary of £385 por annum. sNot to bB Drawn. ' On the item, !'Electoral, £5351''— Mr. G. Witty said he thought thiß was a proper occasion for tho Pr'KO Minister to declare liiS intentions with regard to electoral reform. • Mr. Malcolm ruled that questions if policy could not , be discussed on the Estimates. , ," . M r . Massoy: I've been ruled out ot order. (Laughter.) Mr. Witty did not press the question further. Immigrants. Mr. A. H. Hin'dmarsh moved that/the vote High Commissioner's office, £8854, loe Toduced by £1 as a protest agaiiist tlie Government's policy or assisted immigration. He said the country was over-peopled already. . Mr. G. Witty .said it was not fair to ' bring in a lot of peoplo to reduce wages while the cost of living remained high._ Mr. A'. E. Glover objected-to immigrants getting preference in employment OVO-* local workers. ; Mr. C. A. Wilkinson urged the Minister to speed up tho Department, to i introduce moro peoplo of. tho right kind into New Zealand—young peoplo who would leave tho cities and go out into tho country. It was quite apparent to him that the mon and women arriving here now wero not the kind of peoplo wo required. Mr. G. J. Anderson said that it was . absurd and ridiculous to talk about this > country being ovcr-neonlod. It wanted > a population of three or four millions. i Mr. W. A. Veitch said that he believed that Now Zealand was capable , assimilating a very largo population, but the present immigration system was un- . satisfactory. Many peoplo who camo to ; New Zealand in the first instance drifti ed to Australia. Tliero was a lack of ' facilities for the man without capital to , get on to the land in New Zealand., j The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher said he was assured that a shipload of agri--3 miltuml labourers could bo placed hero. ? Work could be found for anv man who was prepared to go into tho country I and work. I (Left sitting.) t ' ======