THE ESTIMATES.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1848, 6 September 1913, Page 6

THE ESTIMATES.

NATIVE AFFAIRS. AN OPPOSITION PARTY MOVE, At 3.10 p.m. the House went into Committee of Supply on tho Estimates. The first class dealt with was Class V, Public Buildings, Domains, and Maintenance of Roads, £116,589. Mr. G. W. Russell suggested that it would bo wise if tho sections were moro split up in future so that detail items might he discussed. . ' , The Hon. W. Eraser promised to consider tho request. He pointed out that the. practice in vogue for years was being followed and that the vote dealt only with repairs and maintenance. Mr. C. Parata said that there was a great lack of fire-proof, accommodation for Native laud records. Mr. Eraser said that the hon. gentleman should bring tho matter before the Native Minister. • A Suggested Postponement. When Class VI, Native Department, £24,724, was called upon, Mr. G. Witty pointed out that three Native members were absent and suggested that the class should bo • postponed. Tho Hon. W. H. Horries said that tl/>re was nothing new in tho Estimates and that he did not consider it necessary to postpone their consideration, The Native members would have over) opportunity of discussing Nativo affairs when the Nativo Bill came down, Protest and Reply. Protests against tho Minister's decision wero made by Messrs. D. Buddo T. M. Wilford, H. G. Ell, G. W. Russell, C. Parata, and J. Payne. Emphasis was laid on the fact that Dr. Rancihiroa was absent assisting to combat th< Bmallpox epidemic and that Mr. Ngats wa/ ill and had illness in his family. The Hon. Dr. Pomaro said that tw< Nativo mombers woro present. If th< absent members had desired that th< Estimates should bo postponed, wouk i they not have forwarded a request oi i the subject?' Mr. Russell: They took it for grantee • that it would bG dono. i Dr. Pomare: You are only assuming; , You aro always assuming. > Mr. L. M. Isitt also protested ngains' [ tho Minister's decision. An Unreasonable Request. Mr. Herries said that if the N'ativi members who wero absent had givon no i tico that they wanted the Estimate: ' postponed he would have gladly done so - He had received no such notice. Ho wa ;' on intiinato terms and always had heel ■ with Sir Jas. Carroll and Mr. N«ata I It was bccauso ho know porfootl.v we) JUhat there waa nothina. in these E»ti

; mates that they could take exception to ; that- ho declined to postpone tliein. Ho i was bringing down a Native Land Court > and Maori Land Administration Bill and i these wero the heads of the principal I items on tho Estimates. The time to s discuss these matters would bo when the > Bill was before the House. What was going on "was merely "party business." ■ (Opiiosition denials.) If tho Opposition had succeeded, tho member for Christ- ■ church North would linvo gone out snig- ' goring and said: "Didn't wo do it well?" • Jlo (.Mr. Herries) had been long enoucli > in the House to know what party war- ■ faro was. ilo was not attempting in any • possible way to take advantage of mem- • bers who wero absent. There was no > question that could be asked on the Esi timates that he would not. bp glad to i answer privately. The report of the ' discussion on tho Nativo Estimates of i last year only occupied two columns of 1 Hansard. Ho denied absolutely that, • as Nativo Minister or as a private member, ho had ever done anything to tho detriment of tho Natives. Ho had stood up for them sometimes against members i of his own party. Tliero was nothing on tho Estimates that was of any de- > triment or could bo of any detriment to the Nativo peoplo. [ Mr. Witty denied that the Opposition had manoeuvred 1110 protest as a party ; move. Ho contended that tho Estimates ■ afforded the Native members their one ■ big opportunity of the year of having a proper discussion of Native affairs. A Native Abolitionist. i Mr. C. Parata. said that in his ■ experience the Native Department, in- ; stead of helping tho Natives to transact thoir business, put up all sorts > of obstructions. If the Department ; were abolished there would be a saving of £2000 a year. Much of the work I' could be dono by the Registrar of tho i Native Land Court and tho rest by ; the Justioo Department. As at pre- • sent constituted' tho Department was l useless cither to Native or pakeha. The Hon, W. H. Herries said that the Bill ho intended to bring down would modify the constitution of , the Native Land Boards and of the Native Land' Court. No one had yet beon appointed as chiof clork in succession to the late Mr. Gordon, whoso ; demiso ho very regretted. A chief clork would be appointed by the Public Servioe Commissioner. Mr. Wilford: Have you power to recommend? Mr. Herries: I don't know what powers I have. I don't suppose I can. ; Mr. W. D. S. • Mac Donald ex- , pressed, regret that tho Minister would , have no say iji tho matter though tho . acting-chief clerk (Mr. Pitt) were pass- ! Ed over and a man from somo other , Department appointed as chief clork. , Ho stated that he appreciated the consideration with which tho Minister had . v treated tho late .Mr. Gordon in granting him extended leave. Sir. J. A. Young sai® that if Mr. Parata's proposal to abolish the , Nativo, Department had como from a . Government member there would have been a howl about depriving tho Native , of his rights. He hoped that before , long . Nativo representatives would advocate tho abolition of special Nativo representation and tho blending of the two races as one pcoplo. Mr. H. G. Ell said that it was not . tho fault of mombe.'s on that side of tho Houso that tho Minister was in suoh- an abject position. t Mr.. Massey: You should not say such riide things! | Mr. Fisher: I'ou can't stuff in your . friends now. ' Mr. Ell said that {ho Minister was not in a position to do justice to a tried officer of his own Department, [ but would have to go, cap in hand, to L tho Commissioners. , Mr. Herries: Nothing of tho kind. [ Mr. Ell sai'd that tho Minister was not in a positi&i to tell the House that ; a tried .servant of the Department . w;ould bo appointed to tho vacant posi- . tion of chief clerk, but would .have to r consult an outside authority. Nativo Land Court. Mr. W. A. Veitcli said that the Na- ; tive Land Court Judges were, miserably . underpaid and should b'o granted increases. 5 Tho Minister: That will be done on [ the Supplementary Estimates, i Mr. Veitch said that it seemed to 3 him that tho salaries' of those in this . Department, from tho Judges downr ward, should bo largely increased. ! Mr. W. D. S.- Mac Donald said that he admitted that the Nativo Land Court . Judges'had received inadequate salaries 1 under tho last Administration, but great changes had taken placo in this country, and tliero had been increases all round. ; Mr. Witty asked whother tho Minj ister would indicate what increases it was proposed to grant to Native Land Court Judges. , Mr. Herries said that tho salaries put down in the Estimates were not r the classified salaries. They could not put down tho classified salaries until appeals had beon heard and the list completed. Mr. Wilford: When will that be? Mr. Horries: I hope it will be before the Supplementary Estimates come down, because increases will have to appear there. Wo have got to go by tho classification. 1 ,Mr. Russell: Then what is the good of passing tho Estimates? Parliament is becoming a farco. 1 Mr. Horries: Tho honourable gent-le- •' roan might as well say what is tho use I of passing the Railway Estimates, because that is. a classified Department. t As to tho Judges ho hoped that the 0 increases on the Estimates would satisfy honourable mombers. Mr. Wilford: They are worth £600 a year. . * ■ Mr. Herries: That may be, but I have [_ to look at the time a Judge has served. Landless Natives. a Regarding landless Natives in tho !! South Island, Mr. Herries said that his impression was that ho would have to appoint a Royal Commission to inquire 0 into tho question. Tho presont position was not satisfactory either to the Nativo or to tho pakeha, and he intended to have a full report upon the subject before bringing in legislation, which " lie would have to introduce next year, and before sotting apart land for the 0 landless Natives in the South Island. Appreciation and Salary. The Minister went- on to say that he , s wished to acknowledge tho good work j_ dono by the Judge 3of the Native Land t Department. Tho staff of Judges at prej sent is an excellent one. 'u have no fault to find with any of t'bein." He was j only too glad to be tho head of a Department in which'tho Judges were doing such good work. i- Reforms Required. 3 ' Mr. Parata said that two or three s " additional clerks wero required in tho l ~ Wellington office to bring the work up to date. He trusted the Minister would 10 do something in that direction. A lot ' a of timo was wasted by the Nativo Land Courts in sitting on applications that 0 had already beon disposed of. Arrange? 10 inent-s should be made to writo such |9 cases off. He had been at sittings where out of three hundred cases for in hearing nearly half had beon disposed of. Much time and money would bo saved if the Registrar wero empowered to search the records and strike out such cases. He urged that tho Regis-trai-at Wangamii should bo granted an increase of salary. Mr. Hemes said that the Registrar at Wanganui would receive an increase under the classification. His salary would re be raised to £290, with increases to o- £300. lie would he glad to confer with os Mr. Parata regarding tho elimination o. from tho Court lists of cases that had ;is already been disposed' of. >n Mr.'G. W. Russell (Avon) complaina. Ed that only one paper of any import,li oinji relating to Native Affairs hud boon >i"jL.tablod bo far tlut session,, and

though presented a month ago, had not yet been printed. Mr. Horries said that he did not control the Printing Office. Mr. Russell said that tho present Government had purchased only'3l,ooo acres of Nativo land, as against 91,000 acres purchased by the Ward Government during its last year of office. • Surveyors and Settlement. Mr'. A. . M.' Myers asked the Prime Jlinistor whether it was true, as he had said previously, that there wero sufficient staff surveyors to carry on all the work necessary to enable lands to bo subdivided for settlement. Ho pointed out that the Under-Secretary for Native Affairs had remarked in his report that tliero were not sufficient surveyors available to deal ■ with the Native lands awaiting settlement. Tho Hon. W. F. Massey said that while there had been a scarcity of surveyors in the early part of last year, there was no such scarcity now. • The Native report was for tho financial year ending March 31 last. Ho referred to a paragraph in tho Lands Report, in which the Under-Secretary made a statement to the effect that the increase in area of the land opened for selection in the last few months of the financial year was mainly due to extra assistance being provided for tho necessary survey work. Undoubtedly when he came into office he found himself in a difficulty owing to a scarcity of surveyors. Ho had asked for an additional sum of money and the Houso granted £5000. His instructions to the head of the Survey Department wero not to bo parsimonious or cheeseparing, but he was to get tho surveyors if lie could. His information was that surveying had been going ahead at a satisfactory rate. Mr. W. D. S. Mac Donald said tho fact seemed to bo that all the extra surveyors wero monopolised by the Primo Minister's Departments, and he questioned very much whether there wero any additional surveyors working for tho Native Department surveying Native lands.' . Maori Dogs. Mr. G. V. Pearce considered that a mistake had been made in fclio law which took control of registration of dogs owned by Maoris from tho county councils and gavo it to the Maori councils. The result was that no registration fees wero being collected, and at every pa now there was a pack of mongrel curs which did damage among sheep in tho districts whero they wore. Tho Hon. W. H. Herries said ho admitted tliero might bo somo justification for what Mr. Pearco had said. Ho said also that he would bring under the notice of tho Minister in-clmrgo of Mnori councils tho statements made by membora that the councils woro not doing all that' was possible to make tho Maoris observo the ordinary rules of sanita- ; ticn. Tho class was passed unaltered. JUSTICE VOTE. THE COMJnSSIONTOS AGAIN. Tho next class, Justice Department, £428,146, was reached at 10.12 p.m. Mr. T. M. Wilford! said ho wished to bring under the notice of the Minister the appointment of certain men to be clerks of Court who had not passed any examinations. He mentioned tlio case of tho recently-appointed clerk of C<rart at Dannovirke, who -had entered the Service as a,bailiff, and then been appointed in 1906 clerk of tho Court at 1-teefton. As far as the lists showed this man had passed. 110 examinations, and l there were many, clerks in . Now Zealand who had started as cadets, and had passcd'examinations. These clerks wore now passed over, and they had no redress. Tho Hon. A. L. Herdman said that tho honourable gentleman's remarks made it quite clear that nothing improper had: been dono by the Comhiissioncrs. In 1906 tho man had been mado clerk of tho Court at Reefton, and thereby became a' member of tho Civil Service. Of course, ho would bo entitled to be recognised as such when the Public Service Commissioners took office. Nothing of the sort could happen in tho future under the regulations tho Commissioners had drawn up for tho control of tho Service. This limn, he was informed by tho UnderSecretary, had merely been transferred from ltcefton to Dannovirke, and ,nc ono had been superseded at all in the matter of promotion.. Mr. T. AI. Wilford suggested thai an increase in salary ought to be provided on tho Supplementary Estimates for the Registrar of the Supreme Courl at Wellington. This, gentleman received only tlio samo salary as th< Registrars at Auckland and Christ church, and, in addition', he had casi upon him all tho work of registration of tho Court of Appeal, which sat onJj in Wellington. Tho Hon. A. L. Herdman said th< increased salary could not be given ii tho Supplementary Estimates as suggested, but ho understood that bti< Commissioners, in their classification, had recogiiisod the deserts of tlio Registrar at YVellington, and allowed' him i higher status and a higher salary thai: the other Registrars. What Is tho Position? Mr. G. W. Russell asked to from tho Minister the exact position ol Parliament and tho Government in regard to the voting of increased oalaries on tho. Estimates. Would tlio men concorned get tho increases, or was there a higher power than Parliament, tht Commissioners, who would say that thej were not to .'have this money? Tho Hon. A. L. Herdman said thai not only would the men interested "et the increases voted, but they would alsc get something more. Mr. Russell asked who would assess the increases on the Supplementary Estimates. Would the Minister and Parlia ment sav who wore to get increases, oi would tlio Commissioners order wlx should get increases? Mr. T. M. Wilford asked whether th< Commissioners could veto any aniouni voted by l Parliament, or reduce or in crease tho amounts voted by Parliament. The Hon. A. L. Herdman said In thought the member for Avon woult have known the Public Service Act wel enough to know that the Commissioners had tho power to classify tho Ser ; vice, and Parliament would be askec to pass tlio salaries assessed by tliem As to Mr. Wilford's question, Parliament had supreme authority, and coult do anything. Mr. T. M. Wilford said that the Com missioners had really the last word, i> that they could cut salaries down i: they cliose. Only increases appeare: on tho Supplementary Estimates; aboilreductions Parliament would have notli ing to say. If Parliament voted a mai - a salary rf £500 would tho Commis i sioners have power to reduco his salar; to £490? The plain fact was that tin Commissioners could over-rido Parlia Mr. R. M'Callnm moved that tho iten - Supreme Court £10,068 be reduced b; • £1 aa an indication that the Registra of the Supremo Court at Wellingtoi should receive an increased salary lie cause of his holding tho position o , Registrar of tho Appeal Court. Commissioners and tlio Government. Tho Hon. A. L. Herdman said that i ■ Parliament voted a salary higher tha i that allotted by the Commissioners, th man concerned would assuredly get th > higher rate. Tlio money would bo pni • if necessary out of unauthorised expend I lure. On'the general question, he sai i tliero liovor was a greater boon to th i people of New Zealand than the passin i of the Public Scrvico Act. Ho believe I that when the list- was finally settle and the Service settled down to worlj tho Service would settle down as i Ue >tr, Chairman hire stopped the Mir JuW S(B out oi order ia tocußiin

I the general question apart from the vote under discussion. .Mr. G. W. Russell asked whether the Commissioners had power to order the t Government to pay higher salaries. ) Mr. Massoy: The Government controls 1 ) all finance. Mr. .Russell then declared that it was evident that over and above tlio Commissioners lay tho power of the Government. That being so, the whole , Public Sqrvico Act was void.' How was 5 political influenco abolished when the 3 Government need not, give the salaries | the Commissioners' fixed ? Tho Act had, _ lie said, created a farcical position. 'Die ' Minister had got the Government- into a tangle, and there would havo to bo now I legislation this session to clear up the ? mess created. Mr. 11. G. Ell said also that the de--5 cisiou of Parliament in regard to sal- , aries of Civil Servants was Gubject to review by paid officials, an outside and irresponsible authority. • Tho amendment was lost and ' the 5 item passed.' ' r 3 The Webster Claims. 1 Dr. A. K. Newman asked what was * the position ill regard to the Webster " claims. , The Hon. A. L. Herdman said tliat ' after a very great deal of negotiation bcr tween tho United States Government " and tho British Government, both par--1 ties had determined to refer tho mat--6 tor in dispute to a court known as the 1 Pecuniary Claims Tribunal to sit in j Wellington next year. Tho Solicitor- ' General had instructed counsel at the Foreign Office, and the case was all propared. Q Troe Planting. The Hon. D. Buddo suggested that I tho prisoners ought to bo employed in L planting trees at places not so inacces--0 sible and in heavier land. The Hon. A. L. Herdman said the 0 camp at Hanmer was going to bo broken up shortly because it was better for the 0 Prisons Department to have the men in a bigger, better organised camps. This 6 need not mean that tree-planting would stop ■ in tho South Island, but it would bo left to tho Forestry Department in future. J In the Prlsonß. ,f Mr. P. C. Webb urged that a proper y system of classification should tie instituted in the Dominion gaols. He stated that youths convicted of slight t offences were at present compelled to t . herd with criminals of the worst type, p and that tho prisons, instead of being places of reform, wore places of denioral- [. isation. Police Examinations. . 0 Mr. T. M. Wilford attacked the sys- ® tern of police examinations, and declared rl that it bore very hardly upon old flixl capable members of the force, although E it inflicted less hardship upon tho s younger men who had of late years been drafted into' the Police Force in largo numbers. The Hon. A. L. Herdman said that some elementary knowledgo was necessary to efficient service in the Police Force. He did not want to bo unkind or to. impose any hardship upon members of tho force, bui' in some cases >) constables in charge had been found incompetent becaUE© they lacked the. d necessary elementary knowledge. Tho i- system of examinations could not bear o hardly upon old-mep, becauso if a man d was over fifty he could not sit for o promotion to tho rank of sergeant, if As to questions which Mr. Wilford had ti asked about tho police coach, Mr. Rob'i ert Darroch, tho Minister stated that t Mr. Darroch was discharging his duties 1 d satisfactorily. He did not know whe- ! > ther Mr. Darroch was "farming out" 'V any portion of tho work of coaching. Papers in tho examinations for promos tion would bo set by Mr. Darroch. 0 Mr. Wilford said there were good j' policemen in the service who knew theirbusiness thoroughly, but who were quite uneducated, and who were un- ° able in consequence to pass cxainina--1 tl< Mr. H. G. Ell also asked that the examination restrictions bo relaxed for a older mCn in the force. Tho younger men and tlio new entrants should b© • s asked to pass an examination. (1 Mr. J. Robertson questioned the i- highor expenditure oil police last p year, which (ho was informed by tho, is Minister) was-duo to bodies of polico r- 'having beeii moved at times last year, d He declared that the sending of police 10 to Huiitly had done no good, and might 10 Ilavo caused trouble. _ Mr. P. C. Webb, Mr. J. Payne, and it Mr. J. Robertson discussed tho Waihi > and Huntley, strike troubles. rt Six Days a Week. B ' Messrs. Payne and Robertson raised 10 tho question of a six-day week for policc- + men. , , , ... 31 Tho Minister said that tho adoption 111I 11 of a six-day week would involve eniployy ing about 150 more constables, at a cost of about £30,000 a year. 1C Mr. Veiteh strongly. urged tho Minin ister to consider tho question of grantf" ing a six-day week. The Minister said that ho heartily :1 ' o freed that policemen should have a s " six-day week if tho country could afford a 'it but ho did not feol justified in pro--11 {losing tho necessary expenditure that session. Tho class was passed without amendment at 1.12 a.m. w Tho next class in order was Internal Affairs, one of the biggest of all classes in tho Estimates, and the Opposition !S protested against its being taken at such a late hour. In the end tho Primo Min;'s ister agreed not to proceed with Inle tornal Affairs, and' to tako Customs, sy Marine and Harbours, and Inspection of Machinery Departments, tlio estimate for which was £149,007. io The Oil Industry. , B Mr. Qkey stressed the dfcsirability of 'j. continuing the rebate of Customs duty LI upon oil-bearing machinery. , r Mr. Fisher said that the concession was going to cost tho country about £7000 a year. Tlio difficulty was that a 16 demand for similar rebates might be made by other industries. He hoped n . that tho oil industry would prove to a _ bo worth supporting. The Hlnemoa. ' Id Mr. W. H. D. Bell said he understood ill the Hinomoa was becoming unfit for ii- service, and ho asked whether tho Govr- eminent were taking any action. :d The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher said nod. thing would be done this year, but in a- the near futuro something would have Id to be done. Ho had had two examinations made of the; vessel, and ho was n- satisfied that the Hinemoa could not in last very much longer. Indeed, now she if was not too safe in a bad sea when sho was loaded. Something would have to it bo dono to replace her in the futuro. A Ii- special report had been, ordered, and m when it came in the Government would s- havo to consider its futuro action, ry Tlio Class was passed unamended, io Progress was roported, and tlio Houso a- rose at 2.22 a.m. m ( ' W According to the Government vetcrar inarian, Mr. C. J. Roakcs, tho second ,n series of experiments in connection c " with tho "bush sickness," from which °f a largo area of the North Island suffers, is going on in a most promising manner. Ho stated to an Auckland "Herald" representative that tho preif sent series of experiments was being an carried out entirely on the Government's J lO furni3, whereas the first experiments had been carried out on scattered areas, 'j" It would bo somo time, ho added, bo1'- fere the actual results of the experi>iu ments now being carried on would bo he ascertainable. The British Labour party, in addition e( j to tho forty seats for which they havo ,i. representatives ill the House of Commons, Jiavo secured candidates in twelve other constituencies—Jarrow, West Wolverhampton, Preston, Wiran, Leigh, West Hi- Hull, Crowe, Midlothian. Ports-mouth, H£.l_Xor)t, But Bristol, and fit, Holqm.