PLURAL VOTING.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1847, 5 September 1913, Page 4

PLURAL VOTING.

A GISBORNE HARBOUR BILL. DIVIDED OPINIONS. Sir. W. D. S. JIACDONAI/D (Bay of .Plenty) moved oho second reading of the Gisborno Harbour Board' Empowering Bill, which authorised a loan of £200,000. Of that amount £125,000 is required to meet the cost of new harbour works and the balance to go towards paying off a former loan. Sir. H. G. ELL (Christehuroh South) objected to a provision inserted: by tho Local Bills Committeo that the number of votes ..to...be cast by a ratepayer"in the loan poll should depend upon tho amount of his property. As drafted l tho Bill, provided that each ratepayer should exorcise , one vote. Under tho amendment it is provided that ratepayers having property valued at less . than £1000 shall exercise one vote, that if the capital value of a ratepayer's property exceeds £1000 and does not exceed £2000 ho shall exercise two votes, and if it exceeds £2000 ho shall exercise three votes. Sir. Ell said that ho would not oppose tho Bill, but would divide the Committee on tho voting clause. ' ' A Necessary Safeguard. ' Sir.. G. V ; . PEAROE (Patea) said that tho plural voting provision was no new thing. It had been last year in the Slokau Harbour Bill, and was also to bo found in tho New Plymouth Harbour Bill. Tho House had beforo it five Harbour Bills asking for loans aggregating £856,000, and it was necessary that there should be some check. To permit the votes of irresponsible people to count equally with tnoso of ratepayers who would have to meet the cost of tho loan would give rise to a serious danger of reckless borrowing. Mr. Ell: It has been the law in England since 1837. ' - Sir. Pearce: I don't care;- it is not right. 1 - , Sir. E.'SI. I&TT (Ohristchurch North) attacked-the principle of plural voting. Ho hoped that when they camo to vote there would not bo a repetition of tho melancholy spectacle of the previous evening, when the party Whip was cracked and Prohibitionists and everybody olso followed tho Prime Slinister into tho lobby in support of a wrong and an evil thing. A Government member: Haven't yiou got over it-yot? , ; Sfr. R. M'CALLUSI (Wairau) sdso protested against the insertion of tho plural voting proposal in the Bill. Sir. H. -M. CAMPBELL (Hawke's Bay) congratulated the committee 'upon providing for plural voting. Tho election of members was ono thing, but in the case of a loan-poll those who had to pay the piper were entitled to a voto. Ho had spoken to thrc;e out of four members of the local body which ho represented, and all three .'favoured tho plural voting proposal. S[r. Isitt: If the.v (the Gisborne Harbour Board) wanted it, why didn't they put it in P Sfr. Campbell: Because 'tlley have been so used to the so-called Liberal tactics of the party that wo.s in power so long that tho suggestion that anything good could bo put into a Bill by anv Government did not appeal to them. Sir. G. W. FORBES (Eurunui) said that the plural voting proposal would naturally appeal .to a ln;rge landowner liko the" member who had. last spoken. Mr. Nov.vorthy: You ore not a small landowner! Sir. Forbes said tho',t,this was an instance in which the people who had started newspapers and done other things in order to got into power wore coming along for theilr pound'of flesh. Ho invited tho Primo Minister to get up and say a word f<Ar the small cockatoo. A Dli/Iding Line, Sir. G. LAURENSON (Lyttelton) said that this was a question which in one instant split the Liberals apart from the Conservatives. It was a question whether human beings on broad acres should determine 'how taxation was to be raised. Sir. H. J. Hi. OKEY (Taranaki) said that the man who had to pay should havo tho say. Tho clause aid not affect tho election of members. | SIR JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) nsk- , ed why ono man with two or moro votes I should have power to imposo a bflrden , on others who had only ono vote each. Ho objected to tho insertion of a provision in tho Bill which tho local body promoting St had not asked for. j A Committee's Right. ; Mr. G.. WITTY (Riccarton). contended that the Local Bills Committee had no right to insert a- provision which . the people of the district concerned did , not desire. . The, Bill had been adver*

tised in the district and no ono had I come down to object to tho singlo vot- i ing provision. Tho Government wero more concerned about wealth than i about human beings. Tho Prime Min- : ister should get up and chastiso tho I member for • Patea for amending the . Hill in a backward' direction. : The Consistent Course. Mr. W. NOS WORTHY (Ashburton) said that the Bill was in chargo of the member for tho Bay of Plenty, who had last session supported a plural voting provision iu tho Mokau Harbour Board Bill. To bo consistent Mr. < Mac Donald should vote against tho • member for Christchurch South, and with the party that his colleagues termed tho Conservative party. He considered that plural voting was advisablo in connection with raising loans. Thoro was now a Bill beforo tho House for a Napier Harbour loan and soino of those ; ■supporting it had said that tho halfmillion already Bpent in harbour works at Napier had only provided a break- 1 v/ater to keep out shingle. Mr. Brown: Who said that? Mr. D. BUDDO (Kaiapoi) protested against "this growing ' custom of the Local Bills Committee of altering local Bills." (Laughter.) Ho contended that the true function of tho Committee was to see that Bills complied with tho Standing Orders. He condemned tho action of the Local Bills Committee in making an amendment in a Bill as unconstitutional. Ho did not ngreo that tho small landholder paying two pounds in rates was any less worthy, or less fit to bo trusted than tho man with big financial in- < tercsts. Every timo ho saw such an alteration in a local Bill made by tho Committee lie would opposo it. Tho local body should certainly bo allowed to promote a Bill which would suit their J own district. Never in .tho past had .' local bodies' Bill's been so seriously amended by a Committee. Protest Against Obstruction. i Tho Hon. W. P. MASSEY (Prime : Minister) referred tho honourable meih- : bor to the Standing Order, which seem- 1 ed to bo quite clear in giving tho Local ' Bills Committee power to suggest such | amendments as tho Committeo might ; think proper. This amendment was such an amendment as tho Committeo had been accustomed to make for many years. Ho was not going to say whe- ; thor ho approved of the amendment or ( not, but ho appealed to members not to obstruct the Bill farther. Did honourable members on tho other sido object to the Bill? Mr. Ell: No. Mr. Massey: Then lot the Bill go to its second, reading. Afterwards, ho continued, tbey could tako a division on ! this, clause, and the majority would, as always, determine tho question. At present he wished to assist the member for tho Bay of Plenty to got tho Bill through, and to ask members to let the Bill go to its second reading. Mr. J. V. BROWN (Napier) said' ho ( had risen to re{>ly to tho assertion that money had been wasted on tho Napior Harbour, and that tho harbour had been a failure. Ho declared, amid derisivo laughter from the Government benches, that tho harbour was not a failure. Ships drawing 25ft. Gin. could como up to the wharf, but tho reason why the deep draught ships did not como to tho wharf was that thoy had a contract with tho lightering Company which they could not break. 'Ho was opposed to tho property qualification for voters. The Beginning of Wrangle. Mr. H. ATMORE (Nelson) remarked upon the fact that Mr. Massey had not said how he would voto oil the Bill. He declared that the introduction of such a Tory proposal as that under roviow into a measure in charge of a Liberal member was '""an unparalleled act of political impertinence." Jlr. E. I'. Leo (Oamaru) said that tho last speaker wns recognised as an irresponsible speaker, who spoke without thinking, did not know what he was talking about, and did not tako tho trouble to acquaint himself with the facts beforo venturing, to lecture, tho House. Eh (Mr. Lee) pointed out that the Local Bills Committee had full right to miiko the alteration in tho Bill; Mr T. H. DAVEY (Christchurch East) said, that both the Prime Minister and Mr. Lee; whilo excusing the Local Bills Committee for making tho alteration; had carefully refrained from expressingtheir opinion on tho Dill. 1 For his part ho tho/oght that in those enlightened days it was wrong to say that because a man owned moro-land ho should have more votes. 'One of the Loaders. 'Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said tho committeo had done a .monstrous thing in amending tho Bill by deleting a Libera). clauso and putting in one that was a Tory proposal. It was all tho work of "the pinchbeck autocrat" who was chairman of tho Local Bills Committeo. He hoped that next session or tho session after tho Liberal party would be on tho Treasury benches, and then lie hoped that the franchise in tho country dis•tricts would bo made the same as it' had alroady boon made in tho towns. He accused tho Primo Minister'of "blundering incapacity" in the. conduct of tho business of tho House. Never before had tho Upper House been in such a position with no work to do. Tho Houso had been eleven!, weeks in session, and what had been done? A Public Nuisdncc. The Hon. A. L. HERDMAN said the honourablo gentleman was becoming a public nuisanco insido and outside of the House. Insido he blocked tho business <jt" the country, and outsido in a part of the town where tho sun' shinos and tho trees grow ho (Mr. Herdman) understood front some of his constituents that very often the member for Avon often went about quoting; the Bard of Avon,to tho trees on the hill. It had been said that the Government had not furnished tho Upper House with business, and that t-iio Lower Houso had dono no business. Tho fact was that Parliament had done more work this year than, it' had ever dono before at such a stage in any previous session of his experience. A committeo of the Upper llouse was at present considering one of the most important constitutional reforms over submitted to tho Legislature of this country—tho reform of tho Upper House. Now ' that Chamber had a fortnight's- ■ work on hand. And tho committees of tho Houaf! had moro work to do than in -many years previously. Also a numbor of Bills'had passed all stages. Timo and again tho Opposition had blockcd tho business of tho country, and one night they kept the Houso up until 8 a.m. to prevent tho Government passing a Bill that was to assist the old people of this country. Hour after hour, led, or misled, by tho member for Avon, tho Opposition tried to block that Bill from going on tho Statute Book. Mr. Hordman named a number of other Bills which wero awaiting consideration in further support or his statement that both Houses had ample work ahead of them. Last, but not least; was the Defamation Bill which would put tho law on tiio subject in a more satisfactory state than it had ever been before. Committeo Inquiries. Mr. Herdman was proceeding to reply to some Opposition interjections nbout tho committeo inquiries now in progress when Mr. Colvin raised a point of older. Mr. SPEAKER ruled that tho- Minister was within his rights in replying to the member for Avon. Mr. Herdman said that the reason for theso committees being.set up was that Opposition members had raised trumpery tin-pot charges and had resorted to abuse and 'insinuation. They would now bo given a chance to substantiate thoir statements.. The timo .would como when it would be seen how childish and

frivolous and utterly baseless theso I charges were. 1 Mr. Laurenson raised a point of or- \ der. Ho said that ho had sat listen- f ing to a tirade of abuse. Iho Minister < had not yet touched tho Bill beforo tho f Houso. "If we havo to listen to his abuse," ho remarked fiercely, "some ot 1 us will deal witlr him!" 1 The SPEAKER said as iio had done pre- i viously that tho Minister Was replying I to tho member for Avon. He asked < tho Minister, however, not to dwell any 1 further upon theso matters. j Mr. Herdman faid iliat ho would obey tho ruling with a great deal of f pleasure a'nd would deal no further with the baseless charges made against tho ] Government by tho member for. Avon. ( 1 ( A i Question of Principle. < He contended that tho Local Bills J Committee clearly had power to mako ' tho amendment it had made in tho Bill • beforo tho Houso. It was a pure question of principle. Mombers on tho Government sido of tho Houso believed that when a loan was to bo raised by tho local authority, tho people who had to pay the interest and sinking fund •should havo a propoiidorauoo of power in say in;; whethor tho loan should bo floated. There wa3 no analogy between this and tho election of a member of Parliament. So far as tho election of memberq of Parliament was concorned, wealth should nover bo taken into consideration, but it was otherwise in tho caso of a Local Bill which proposed, porliaps, that a sum of £200,000 or £500,000 should bo raised. Mr. J. HANAN (Invercargill) contended that the possession of property should not confer any additional voting power. ( Ho went on to complain that tho ulti- f mato result of tho state of affairs in j tho House would bo "legislation by ex- ; haustion." Ho accused the Prime Minister of making shuffling replies to deputations. • , A Night Out. ' i The Hon. W. H. HERRIES said it seemed thoy were to havo a night out. j Ho was sorry for the member for tho j Bay of Plenty, whoso Bill was being / bloated. The member for Avon had ( dono more to block his Bill than any- . one elso in the House. Ho believed , altogether in the county franchise in , this country, and ho believed in tho now . ckuiso in this Bill. It had been said 1 that the Local Bills Committeo nover , altered Bills. What rubbish members ■ talked! The record of tho Local Bills • Committee over a long period would , show that thoy had frequently altered Bills, and dono so rightly, on important points. Tho question of the franchise had often been raised in reference to ; local Bills, and the honourablo member , for Patea and' the committee had done : nothing new, on this occasion. If it was wrong on tho part of tho member for Patea to alter a Bill, before the • Looal Bills Committee, what-about mom- , hers, including tho member for Lyttel- , ton, who had done it under tho Continuous Ministry? Somo of them had cut Bills about until tliey were scarcely recognisable. Ho invitod tho Opposition to ceaso their policy of practical obstruction, and asked tho Houso to jndgo tho Government by tho Statute Book when it was completed. A Charge Denied. Mr. G. V. PEARCE (Patea) said that ho had. been misrepresented in being called a Tory, mid in being accused ot originating tho plural voting clauso in Committeo. In faco of protests and points of order by tho Opposition, Mr. Pearce read a quotation from Hansard showing that a plural voting clauso lyas embodied in the Now Plymouth Harbour Bill of 1008, and that thoso who voted for tho clauso included Sir J. .Ward, Sir Jas. Carroll, and Mr. M'Gowaiv. At thia stage Mr. Pcarco was stopped by tho Speaker. Ho oxplained that he wanted to point out who tho Tories were, but was not allowed to proceed. SIR JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) said that the member for Patea had created a wrong impression about a chargo that had not been mado. ■ What' had been said was tliat tho Chairman of the Committeo was responsible for putting this I clause in tho Bill, not that hie originated it. ' Mr. SPEAKER said that tho dhargo had boon anado. Mr. C. K. WILSON (Taumanuiui) said that the accusation against Mr. Poaroo of boing a Tory was a.bsurd. There was no greater Liberal in tho Houso. Sir Jas. Carroll, Sir J. Ward, and Mr. Mac Donald had supported this plural voting clauso over and over riga-iii. Now tho House was told "that the Tories had done it." An interesting Division. Mr. J. H. ESCOTT (Pabiatua) .read tho division list upon the plural voting clause in tho New Plymouth Harbour Board Bill of 1908. Tho "ayes" (for the clause) numbered 34, and wero: Aitken, E. G. Allen, J. Allen, Buddo, Carroll, Chappie. Dillon. Duncan, Field, Graham, Hall, Hardy, Herries, Izard, Kidd, Lang, Lewis, M'Gowan, M'Nab, 1 M'Phersou, Major, Malcolm, Mander, Massey, Millar, Reid, Remington, Rhodes, Ross, Symes, Thomson, Ward. ' Tellers': T. Mackenzie, Okey. Tho "noes" (23) were: Arnold, Barber, Barclay, Colvin, Davey, Fishor, Gray, Hanan, Hojuisby, Izard, Laurenson, Kgata, Parata, Poland, Poole, Sed,don, Sidey, Stallworthv. Steward, Tanner, Wood. Tellers: Ell, Hogg. _ Pairs: For: Alison, Bollard. Against: Hogan and Lawry. Mr.. Isitt: Izard voted for both sides, according to that! Mr.,Escott: Well, he is here on both ,The Mover Replies. Mr. W. D. S. MACDONALD (in reply) said tho Bill was promoted by the Harbour Board, a body which represented'air shados of opinion, and which included among its members many of tho bigßest ■ landholders of the district. Tho Bill had been ndvertised, and its contents wero well known. Ho expected after tho long debate that ho would be inundated with telegrams to delete tho clause. It was not expected that under tho Bill there would bo any rato struck at all. becauso tho Harbour Board had cnifow«ients and rcvenuo sufficient to' pay all the interest and sinking fund. Doubtless tho property of tho ratepayers would bo pledged as security for'tho loan, but in actual fact ho one need fear that there would be any special harbour rates struck. Ho admitted.at.'once that the new clause was inserted in tho Bill at tho instance of the member for Patea, and ho had then anticipated trouble in getting tho Bill through, but ho was not so much concorned about the franchiso as about tho Bill generally. Tho socond reading was carried on tho voices. WANCANUI BILL. THE SAME TROUBLESOME CLAUSE. Mr. W. A. VEITCH (Wanganui) moved the socond reading of the Wanganui Harbour Board Bill, which originally proposed that £250.000 should be raised in two lots of £125,000 each. Ail amendment proposed reduced the sum to £150,000 with which the promoters of the Bill had agreed to nvoid difficulty. The alteration of the qualification' for voters had been made in this Bill as in the Gisbome Bill. Ho hoped there would not bo such a long discussion upon it as there had been on tho Gisbornc Bill. Ho referred to the chango in the schedule, which was now satisfactory to tho promoters of tho Bill and those opposed to it. In fact, tho promoters of tho JRill approved of all the amendments mado in tho Bill by the Local Bills Committee except the insertion of the clause referring to plural voting. Tho harbour, lie. said, was in a thoroughly prosperous condition. The people of Waiigrmui had agreed to rate themselves at double tho rates to bo levied upon those outside. The rating area had been considerably reduced, and now the urea would comprise only thoso lands that would be increased in value \

by tho development of the harbour. Ho was opposed to tho principlo of plural voting, and tho board's own proposal to givo every ratepayer ono voto had been arrived at alter very careful considera''Tl'r. R. W. SMITH (Waimarino) said this was tho third occasion on which the Bill had conic beforo Parliament, and the fact that those who had promoted tlio Bill had reduced tho rating area considerably showed that tho objection to it ou previous occasions had been justified. Now ho was well satisfied with the rating area as set out in tho schedule. v Mr. G. V. PEARCE (Patea) said tho Bill had been beforo the Local Billb Committeo for thrco weoks, iuki after compromiso the rating area had been reduced, but it was still unfair. .Some land near Wanganui, which was excluded, should bo included, but in tho Bill a clauso permitting diflorcjitinl duos being charged against goods handled for peoplo in this area was inserted. Ho thought it fair that tlio clauso should be left in tho Bill, otherwise a rich district would escapo charges on account of tho harbour. Speaking of tho franchise clause, ho drew attention to tho fact that authority would bo given undor Bills this year to borrow close on a mil-' lion on Jiarbour works. This must affect, the country's credit, and tho question became a bigger ono than 0110 merely affecting local Bills. Many of tlio harbours, too, had been unsuccessful. For thoso reasons somo check ought to bo put on reckless borrowing, and the best check that could bo put on was to givo tlio peoplo who found tho monoy the extra voting power. Nor was it right to say that this principlo was inaugurated by tho members on tho Government side. It had already been included in tho Now Plymouth Harbour Bill under tlio late Government. Sbmo Objections. Mr. D. H. GUTHEIE (Oraua) said that tho objections which ho had had on previous occasions to tho Bill wore to a largo extent removed, but ho was far from being in a position of saying that ho was satisfied 1 with the Bill. Tho clauso to which ho took special exception was that providing for differential chargos against certain areas. By these charges the board would drive to other ports certain trado which .ought to go to Wanganui. However, although not quite satisticd, ho would vote for tho second reading of the Bill, and try in committeo to havo the differential charge clause deleted. Mr. J. H. BRADNEY (Auckland West) said tho reproach that too much money was being spent 011 harbours was not deserved as applied to tho harbour of Wanganui. Thoro was a good deal of money had been spent already, but spent very effectively. Mr. A. E. GLOVER (Auckland Central) spoko in support of tlio one-nian-one-vote. principlo, and against the franchiso clauso ih tho Bill. Mr. H. J. H. OKEY (Taranaki) was also opposed to tho differential dues clause, which, 110 alleged, would bo detrimental to tho back-blocks sottlers who had successfully objected to being rated for tho harbour. SIR JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) explained why the Government of which no li.ul been head voted for tho plural voting clauso. in tho Now Plymouth Harbour Bill. Tho-reason was that tho district asked for tho clause, and if tho clauso had not been allowed tho Bill would have been' dropped. If this proposal was to bo put into all Bills of this character, why should not the Government oomo down with a Bill mnking this principlo of general application? For his own part 110 was opposed to plural voting as was prescribed in this Bill. The Bill Defended. Mr. E. P. LEE (Oamaru) defended tlio clauso in tlio Bill providing for differential dues. It was. only, fair, ho urged, that tho outlying portions of the district should pay in somo way for tho benefits derived from tho uso of tho harbour. Mr. F. H. SMITH (Waitaki) supported tho plural voting provision and said that even where proporty-holdors woro permitted to cxcrciso as many as three votes tho small peoplo- held tho voting power. Ho contendod that it was only fair that responsible ratepayers should havo greater voting power than unattached singlo men who might go away from tho place in bad times. 'Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) said that if tho Government Whip had only restrained tho member for Patea' "all this trouble" would havo been saved. Mr. Pearce: "You arc always in trouble." The Outer Districts. Mr. E. NEWMAN (Kangitikoi) denied tho validity of a oontontion that residents in tho outlying districts had used their influenco in tlio Houso to havo their districts excluded from tho Wanganui harbour rating nrea, when in equity thoy should have been included. The fact was that a largo part of tho area which it was fonnorlyproposed to include in tho Wanganui Harbour district was not served by tho Wanganui Harbour at all, but found a natural port at Wellington and at Foxtoii. In Committeo 110 would vote against tho differential duos clauso. THE PRIME MINISTER. LOCAL BILLS AND PARTY CAPITAL. Tho PRIME MINISTER said that, speaking generally, 110 was in favour of tlio Bill beforo tho House. When a local Bill camo along from any locality 110 took it for granted that tho peoplo of that locality know their own businoss best, and that unless something in tho Bill was seriously objectionable from tho point of view of tho country, it should bo allowed to proceed. That was tho position ho took up, not only in reference to this local Bill, hut in referonco to others before Parliament. As to tho division upon tho Now Plymouth Har-; bour Bill, which had been read out by Mr. Escott, he was not ashamed of his voto on that occasion, and would vote in the samo way now. ' Waste of Timo. He wished to protest most emphatically against local Bills being mado tlio subject of party attack or used as material for party purposos. Ho had been in tho House for many years, and had nover until that night seen local Bills used for party purposos. It was an unfair thing to do, and vory unfair to tho member in chargo of tho Bill. Mr. Ell: Your chairman put the clauso in; he is responsible. Mr. Massey: That has nothing to do with it. Tho proper timo to discuss tho clauso was when tho Bill camo up in Committee of tho whole House. Ho did not object to tho member for Christchurch South raising tho point, but ho objected to tho Bill being used for party material. Mr. Davey: Very few did that. Mr. Massey: Very few indeed, and I believo that Mr. Davey, the member for Christchurch East, would be one of tho very last to do it. Regarding tho waste of timo that had taken place, although he had always been in favour of eany closing, that waste of timo would have to be made up. They had come to that stage of the session at which, if an hour or two was wasted in tho early part of the evening, tho House would have.to sit long enough to mako up tlio wasted timo. Ho was prepared that night to place enough business before tho House to keep it going for tho next two months. Mr. Ell: And wo will do it. Mr. Massey: I am glad to hear from tlio hon. gentleman that ho will work, l-lo has never objected to work or to late sitting. "Thoro is a Bill in my jiand now," continued the Prime Minister, "that will keop the House going for a fortnight. It is the-Land Bill." Mr. Brown: How many clauses? Mr. Massey: About 60, and very important clruscs at that. I am not going to discuss them now. It will bo uitro-

duced when I think tho proper tilno lias arrived. When I think tlmt tho proper tinio Jias eomo to put forward any policy it will bo put lorward and not before. j\lr. fill: That is your prerogative. Mr. Brown: Don't threaten. Mr. Alnissey: 1 nm not threatening, that is tho position 1 propose to take up. Tho Prime .Minister said that lio believed Wanganui had a great future in front of it. Ho believed that when tlio Bill was placed upon tho Statute-hook-as ho behoved! it would' bo before it would ho a very great advantage to tho people of tho rising and progressive town of Wanganui. Going into Hansard. Mr. G. WITi'Y (Riccarton) defended tho discussion upon tlio second reading of tho Bill on tho ground that if it had been reserved for tho Committeo stage it would not have gono into Hansard. Mr. IU as soy: What docs that matter? Mr. Witty: It matters'a great deal. It was not a waste of tinio .to di6cuss the matter, because it would' havo to bo discussed at one stago or another. There wero important principles in these Bills wiiiich had to be treated properly. Mr. G. W. RUSSI3LL (Avon) did not ngreo.with tho proposal for differential dues in Wanganui. Ho thought it would bo bettor for the rating area to bo increased, and' one rate maintained 1 . Ho sutaiitted that tho conn try would 'have developed moro rapidly if much of tho money spent on harbours had been spent in opening up tho back-blocks. At present there was £6,000,000 borrowed for harbour purposes, and it'was a question for tlio country to Bay how iar it Should continue this wild' raco for harbours. On the West Coast of tho North Island alone three ports, New Plymouth, Wanganui, and Patca, had borrowed £411,000. Wanganui now wanted an exthi £150,000. Ho prodicted that tlio tinio was coming when a Local Government Board would havo to bo established to report upon proposed dis; trict borrowings. Ultimately, ho held, tlio exporting centres would bo confined to tho four cities, for tho day of the small steamer was gone. Steamers of To-morrow. SIR WALTER BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) said he wished to endorse what Mr. Russell had said about the effect of tho increase in the size of tho interocean steamers trading to our coasts. Ho considered, as ho had always considered, that tlio freights of our produco inward mid outward were greatly enhanced by tlio tinio tho stealers spent in running from port to port up and down tho coasts. The 'Samo freights wero charged at Wellington or Auckland as at Waitara, so that tho largo centres suffered at the expense of the smaller. It would be well if H could be arranged that steamers could discharge a full load and take in a full load at ono port, for t'he_ saving of expense would make reduction in freights possible. ' It would be a bad day for Wanganui if the steamers ceased to call iii the roadstead; and ho did not think that in this generation or next tlio port of Wanganui would bo fit for largo steamers. _ Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Egmont) approved of tlio Bill, anil of tlio harbour ! scheme. Ho did not tliink it was correct to say that the of steamers was increasing as rapidly as was proposed. Ho was not going to vote to retain tho franchise chiuso introduced bv tlio Local Bills Committeo. Mr. W. A. VEITCH, in reply, said that there would bo no engineering; difficulty in tho way of getting, 40ft. of water in tho harbour at Wanganui, and tho works now proposed would give a depth of 30ft. It was only a matter of conserving tho water to create a scour to shift tho sand. Tho difficulty now was not to got tho slnps nij for there was already 2Qft. of wator, but tho money was ,7ieeded to make a basin in which vessels could turn. Ho said • tho differential charges were not provided for in the interests of tho town, . but .in tlio ■ interests of those parts of the country included in the ratme nroa. Tho second reading was agreed to on tho voices at 11.30. TIMARU HARBOUR. Mr. J. CRAIGIE (Timaru),moved the second reading of the Timaru Harbour Board Empowering Bill. He oxplaincd that tho Bill was not a borrowing olio, but was intended to empower the board to make provision for tlio repayment or somo former loans. Tho harbour, he ■ said, was an extremoly successful artificial harbour, perhaps tho most successful in tho world, and tho district was so rich and tho revenue so good .that tlio rate levied was only three-sixteenths of a penny. Under the Bill the board would-be permitted to establish sinking funds to, ropay the loans of £360,0U0, which had boon very woll-spent money indeed. ; . „„ The second reading was agreed to-oil tho voices. SMALLER BILLS, i Tho Wcstport Public Parks Vesting Bill (Mr. J. Colvin) and Tho Springs County Council Reclamation and Empowering Bill (tho Hon. R. H. Rhodes) wero read a second liino without debate. MAGISTRATE'S COURT BILL. Tho Hon. A. L. HERDMAN moved that tho amendments made by tho Legislative Council in the Magistrate S Court Amendment Bill bo agreed to. Mr. T. M. WILFURD (Hutt) asked tlio Jlinistcr to inquire into t'lio appointment, of tho clerk of court at jUannevirke, tho appointee having entered tho service as a bailiff, and entered the servico as a clerk later than several other ' clerks awaiting promotion, who had entered in tho regular way as cadets. . Ihe appointment had been made by tho Public Service Commissioners. Mr. HEADMAN promised to inquire into tho case. The second reading was agreed to. BANK OF NEW ZEALAND. Tho Bank of No:v Zealand BiU'(tko Hon. J. Allen) was read a second tjmo pro forma, and referred to tho Public Accounts Committeo. | IRRIGATION. Tlio Hon. W. F. MASSEY (for tlio Hon. J. Allen) moved the second reading of tlio Irrigation and Water Supply Bill. He explained that tho Bill, though new in name, was really an old friend, which had for several years'previously appeared in tho Appropriation I Bill. The effect of tho Bill would bo to give tho Government power to borrow £100,000 lor irrigation, mostly in Central Otago. Tlio Bill found general support, and was read a second time on the voices. LAND DRAINACE. The Hon. W. F, MASSEY moved tho . second reading of the Land Drainage Amendment Bill. Ho explained tlio effcct of the Bill, which was to give land drainage hoards power to levy a higher rate than six farthings in tho pound, to permit of differential rates • being charged on different lands, according to the measure of benefits conferred upon the land by the drainage operations, and to give tho boards power, with certain safeguards, to extend tho boundaries of their districts. Mr. G. Witty, the Hon. D. Buddo, and Mr. T. IT.'Dave v. Mr. C. A. Wilkinson, and Mr. J. A. Young all agreed that the Bill would bo a good measure with amendments. The second reading was agreed to. AUCKLAND HALF-HOLIDAY. Tlio Auckland Weekly Half-Holiday Bill (tlio Hon. W. 1". Masscy) was read a second lime pro forma, and referred to the Labour Bills Committee. The House rose at 0.28 n.m. Particulars ef a splendid dairy farm of 2)5 acres, well watered, gras?«d, subdivided, and otherwise improved, is advertised for sale by Mr. W. Garrett, of Aucklnud.