THE ESTIMATES.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1842, 30 August 1913, Page 6

THE ESTIMATES.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. ABOUT VENTILATION. Tho House went into Committee of Supply on the Estimates at 4.30 p.m. 'ino first it-ehrJiad already been passed, aiid the second item was "House of Representatives, £9250." Mr. 6. Witty -raised' the ' question of the insanitary ■ condition of Parliament Buildings, ami lie wished to know Whether the. ejection of the new building need <bo further delayed. - 'The Hon. F. M. B. 'Fisher,in.charge of tho JSstiniates, 1 said 'that .it was no easy matter to put tip new ' Parliament Buildings, and it could' not. be done in a few days. Some of the quantities had been taken out, and others wcro being taken out, «uid -the government', would os soon as possible let a contract for which tenders'iliad already been called;, He did not think the Government would bo wise in spQidi%" iriuch' money-on the' .ventilation or improvement of the preEent Chamber. Ho thought it. might bo, possible to have the new building fihished ready for the occupation of members in twelve months!' Mr. A. IL. Hiudmarsh said that tho Hon so needed ventilation above all things.' "Members were so delicate," especially "tlio' baldheaded ones," such "a set of old women" that they would not have the windows open;' 1 Members ;(lid "not ■like ventilation. Why could not the .windows be thrown open, as they were in all hospitals? 15 tho windows could not bo opened, the public should be excluded in order that some fresh air should be preserved in the Chamber. It seemed to him that there would be troublo in tho next Chamber,; no matter;; ihow palatial it might be, about ventila-'. t-ion. Mr. W. A. Veitch _ drow attention • to ono or two anomalies which ho considered were in existenco He thought members of Parliament should have the same concessions in regard to postage, telography diarges, ' and telephone charges as Ministers had, in order that raemoors^should notjie-put to unnecessary exponse in. carrying out their 'offc cial duties." - , The item.was passed at 5 p.m., after Mr. Parata had spoken in Maori about Bellamy's. On the item,; "General 4 expenses,' £23,710"Mr. G. V. Pearco urged that it was the practice to keep all the Parliament buildings over-heated. HANSARDS FREE. Mr. G;" Forbes'asked thai the number of copies of Hansard allowed to members should be increased, especially to country n\eml}ers;'-;many;of- whose' constituents' 'wire ' inadequately supplied with Parliamentary news. He'asked tliat the allowance of 75 copies per member bo increased to 100. Mr. W. A. Veitch supported this appeal. • Mr. G. J. Anderson argued that tho printing of Hansard might bo reduced very much if. debatos woro reported in the third person, and'spoeches Were condensed. All that was of concern to tho country cou'd certainly bo put into Hansard in much less space than it now occupied/all P o '* of speeches would bo made-by experienced reporters, and possibly in very much better English than somo members commonly used. Other members supported the request . for more cooies of Hansard*

.The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher said that members wcro asking for an unusually liberal concession in the matter of Hansard. Already members of the New Zealand Legislature were treated . incomparably more generously than members of any of the Australian Legislatures. I More Requests for Concessions. • Mr. G. Laurenson asked the Minister to consider the possibility of supplying typists, or some secretarial assistance to members during session, in order that they might cime with their voluminous correspondence during thp session. Tlie request was supported by Sir Walter Bucbauan, who said that in the Parliament of the United States stenographers woro placed at tlie services of members. There was no doubt, he thought, that members needed some i such assistance. Mr. H. G. Ell protested that- something should be done to re'icve the South Island members who had to pay steamer fare in order to visit Wellington 'ompublic business. Mr. Poland improved upon tho request with the suggestion that members travelling on public business,'such as looking at thevaripus public works in all, parts of tho ; country, should receive some allowance. Ministers received a big salary and 30s. ; a.day, and..members could barely live on their honorarium. He thought this was too great a disparity between representatives of the peoplo. Mr. G. Laurenson,' in support of this, said that if members of the-Houso had .'seen the route of the Midland Railway and of the Otago Central, neither of those railways would havo been started. • Mr. W. A. Veitch also thought mombers should havo more privileges and more Tights as compared with Minis-, tors. THE LIBRARY. SHOULD IT BE FREE? Mr. A.; H. Hindmarsh (Wellington South),urged that the public should receive more benefits from the Parliamentary library. 1 Why, ho asked,' should not the public have the'same right to' use' the library during the session as well as tho recess as members of Parliament? Members' of Parliament had no right to set up a proprietary claim .to the.' library. Ho also urged that this library and tlie other libraries, such as the Victoria College and City Council libraries, should come _ to an arrange-' ment in regard to specialisation in .certain classes of books. Why should not the Parliamentary library specialise in ono branch of some scientific subject and tho other' libraries in other branches of t-ho same-subject? Not one of theso' libraries was' at present up to date in scientific subjects. The money was spent too widely, and the result was that there was a great deal of over-lapping. ; The Hon.. F. M. B. Fisher said that he did not think that Mr. Hindmarsh's views were shared by one other member of the House. (Hear, hear.) If -they allowed tJhe general public to take books put from the Parliamentary library during a session'Hhe result would often bo that when a member of Parliament wanted a book —say, during a debate—ho would be unable to get it because it had been taken out. Then as to mailing an arrangement with other libraries: Supposing that a member wanted a'book on a certain subject, was lie going to send to Victoria College for it? At present any reputablo person oould obtain recess privileges, whith included tho right to take out books, and if they desired for a particular purpose to take out a book they could do so through any member of Parliament. Tho Library Committee, he said, had been most liberal in its treatment of the public. • "Fudge, Absolute Fudge!" Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh did not agree with tho Minister. "Is ho so ignorant," he asked, "as to think that any book dealing with the higher branches of science would ever bo required in this House?" (Laughter.) He argued that facts. as they were showed that books of science were not used in the House. Fiction also might bo lent out. It was the merest- "fudge" to say that t'he library must bo closed to the public during, five months of tho year because books might bo needed by a member of' Parliament: ."Fudge, absolute fudge," he repeated with emphasis. . The Hon. F. 31. fi. Fisher said it could ruot. ba-contended, that tho.library was' not accessible. All tho books specified by Mr. Hindmarsh were obtainable by those who wanted them in the recess, and, for. the. session they were needed. The honoura.blo member had suggested that fiction should bo allowed, to go out. "Why," he sail, "if we allowed fiction to go out of the library the honourable gentleman would have nothing to make nis speeches out Of." _Mr. H. G. Ell said' the member for Wellington South- 'had , talked the "merest clap-trap" in order to get votes. They all_ knew he had been electioneering, talking ; to his constituents. For his own part ho was ono of those who read a good deal. 'Mr. Himdmarsh: I beg your pa.rdonl Mr. Ell: 1 read a good deal. Mir. Hindmarsh: You surprise me. .viMr. E!I ohallenged the statements of .j\lr.:.Hiiitlmarsh that certain books woro not required. Nor would it be possible to admit the public to the. library while member's used it, as thoy did, as a writing and working room.. Tilts other Towns.. : - Mr. G. J.- Anderson said that' if library privileges woro to bo given to the public there wcro other towns in Now Zealand bosides Wellington, and since the library was kept up at a cost to tho . general taxpayers of Now Zealand of £3000 a year,' tho people of these other towns should have the privileges. Mr.' G. M.' Thomson said that in tho' Science and Art Ball to come before tho Houso there was a proposal to establish. a science library, in wh ieh science books now in tho Parliamentary library could be kept. To this library the. public would bo admitted. Although there wore some seionco hooks in tho library which were not much used, there were many. in the library that were freely used.. Mr. H. G. Ell saidl tho library contained many books whioh were not required by members, books which really: belonged to a/ national collection. Ho suggested that when the new building was put up tlieso books should be put in a room apart, Tlie Hon. F. M. B. Fisher said that lion, members would have an opportun-, ity of going before tho Science and Art Committee, and. would then have an opportunity of' expressing their vic>vs as to what sections of tlie library .should bo retained for the' uso of members of Parliament*-'and what books / rouitl' bo. handed over to the national library. "Hypocrisy." Mr. 'A'. H. Hindmarsh said that Mr.

Ull bad accused him of hypocrisy, a most insulting accusation. Sir. lill said that lie had used the term in t-ho political sense. If Mr. liindmarsh considered it insulting ho would withdraw it.

Mr.' Hindmarsh : There's the member for'Mataura said the same tiling! (Laughter.) He declared that ho was actuated by no other motive than a desiro to promote tho spread of knowledge. l>r. A. K. Newman said that the whole origin and purposo of tho library was that it should bo a Parliamentary library. All else was extraneous. Ouly £600 a year was available for literature, and if scientific works wore to be added Parliament would havo to add another £400 or £500 a year. During overy recess he was inundated with applications for permission to uso tlie library, and ho granted them all. He considered that tho library shoujd bo opened to tho general public during tho recess in the evening, as well as in the daytime. When more accommodation had been provided, tho general public might be admitted to some sections of tho library during tho session. Bellamy's License. Mr. L. M. Isitt raised tho question of tho right of Parliament to vote for or against the issue of a license to Bellamy's. Tho rule is that the vote must bo taken within 14 days of tho opening of a new Parliament, and no voto has been taken for the past nine years. Mr.'lsitt contended tliat members were being deprived of their rights in this' matter. Ho believed that the Primo Minister, when he first came to Parliament, voted for discontinuing tho license to Bellamy's. Mr. Massey: It is so long ago that I scarcely remember 1 _ Mr. Isitt said that at all events. Parliament should have an opportunity of voting in regard to tho license. The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher said that the cost of provisions consumed in Bellamy's w'as defrayed out of receipts. Thero was a voto of £900 on tlie Estimates for tho staff in Bellamy's. Receipt in Bellamy's did not balance the expenditure, and Parliament had to supplement the receipts by a vote. If Parliament objected to granting this voto the charges would have'to bo increased. As to Mr. Isitt's' question, thero had, been good reason • for Parliament not taking a vote upon Bellamy's license in 1906 (the year of Mr. Seddon's death), and 1909 was tho year of tho Dreadnought short session. The opportunity of taking a vote would no doubt como after the next general election. Mr. Isitt said that the Minister's answer was unsatisfactory. For nino years no voto had been taken upon Bellamy's license, and he .contended that tho law which had given riso to this state of affairs should bo altered. If members prized- this, privilego (Bellamy's) it stood in no Ho hoped the Minister would give somo satisfactory assurance, on t'ho subject. Mr. G. J. Anderson said that ho had not accused Mr. Hindmarsh of hypoorisy. Mr. Hindmarsh: Well, you should not talk as you did. Mr. Anderson said that ho would not ask Mr. Hindmarsh how ho should talk in tho House. Leader of the Opposition. Mr. 11. M. Campbell expressed' the opinion that the scale of charges in Bellamy's shotild' be raised to a paying point. Ho. considered that tho Leader of tho Opposition should receive a larger salary than an ordinary member. Mr.. G. Coates said that in his opinion tho Leader of the Opposition should receive a salary of £800 or £1000 a year. . .... ..; A member: What about, tho leader of the Labour party? Air. Coates said that it -would ho sufficient to recogniso two sections, the Government of the day and the dominant section opposed to them. Class 1, Legislative Departments: '£•34,472, was put through immediately after the House resumed at 10 p.m. The Night's Work. ■ . When the House resumed at 10 p.m. there were only 18 members in their places—fourteen Government members and four Oppositionists. Class 2, Departments of Finance, £6ti,6 : lti, was' put through in less than a quart.er of. an hour. Answering Mr. "Anderson, the Hon. Jas. Allen said that it was not intended to review the National Provident Fund legislation at present. Jilr. Anderson iiad urged that contribution to the fund should bo open to ail, irrespective of salary. Class 3, Post and Telegraph Department, £1,135,240, was po-stponed. Working Railways. Class 4, Working Railways, £2,931,250, gave riso to a good deal of discussion. < Mr. G. W. Russell asked the Minister what ho intended to do this year for the members of the first division. He congratulated tho Minister upon taking off the second Auckland-Wel-lington express. Tile train, he stated, must havo been run at a loss. Mr. V. H. Roed contended that tho second train should never havo come, off. He had travelled in it on a number of occasions, when it included fourteen carriages, and had been unablo to get a seat in a smoking-carriage. The second express had not been sufficiently advertised by the Department, but ho was satisfied that if the returns were properly gono into it .would-bo'shown that the running of the train had paid.Manawatu Trains. Mr. W. H. D. Bell asked what the Minister's policy was in regard to running suburban trains. When . Mr. Myers was Minister for Railways ho had adopted tho policy of running the trains first in the expectation that tho traffic would follow. Ho urged that better facilities for workers travelling should be granted on the Manawatu line. Residents in tho Hutt Valley had been very much better treated ,by tho Railway Department than residents along tho Manawatu line, ever since the latter railway- was taken over by tho Government. •, Pending the construction of tho projected central railway station in Wellington, suburban trains should be brought into the Lambton Station. Such express trains as como down the Wairarapa line should, if necessary, bo dealt with at- Thorndon. Suburban passengers suffered much greater inconvenience from being landed a mile outside tho town than did' thoso coming from a long distance, who always had some luggage with thorn, and had, in any case, to'charter a conveyance on leaving the train. Siding accommodation would ultimately havo to be provided for all trains arriving at tho central station, and the sidings might as well be provided now.. Shelter,at Lambton. Sir Walter Buchanan ventilated a complaint about lack of sheltered platform accommodation at Lambton Station. Repeated complaints had been made to the Department on tho subject, lie stated, ,but they were waiting for some far-distant futuro, and tho Minister should look into tho matter, and have it i;emedicd. A station worthy of tho traffic was in tho far-distant future. ■ Tho'Minister: Oh, no. Ho added that tho verandah accommodation at Lambton had been increased. Sir Walter Buchanan said that the arriving Wairarapa trains were run past tho shelter. "Cross Injustice." Dr. A. Iv. Newman supported what, had been said by tho nictnbor for the Suburbs. Ho declared that tho peoplo of the suburbs along tho Manawatu line wero being treated with gross injustice, . If tho Minister told his engmoors that tha trains must be run in

to Lambton under pain of dismissal, it would soon' bo done. Year after year complaints on this subject had gone unheeded. On any wet morning eighty or a hundred girls wore landed at Thorndon,' and had to walk tho 'remaining distanco, although rails were laid all tho way. It was a very serious tiling for tlie Wellington members that the "small miscrablo thing" they asked oil behalf bf those suburban residents should bo refused year after year. Another injustice to the siinnirban residents was that they were charged for tho whole distance, although they had to walk over the last part of it.

Mr. W. H. D. Bell, returning presently to the charge, contended that tho suburban residents interested had effectively jdisposed of the objections of the Department to running Manawatu suburban trains to Lambton Station. The Manawatu residents had not been fairly treated by the Hailway Department officials. One of tho first questions that would be addressed t-o the now General Manager of Railways was as to whether these trains could be run to Lambton station. Tho fact that Manawatu residents had to pay fares for a milo beyond the distance over whiclj thoy were carried was not so galling as tho fact that wero set down a male short of the placo to which tliev should be. carried. So long as matters were irn their present unsatisfactory stato.it was not to be expected that workers would tako up their residence alon2 the Jlanawatu lino. A MINISTERIAL STATEMENT. PROSPECTS OF RELIEF. Tils Hon. W. H.' Herries said that he hoped to satisfy the First Division. Ho was bringing down amending legislation, a new Bill and a new schedule, and hoped to satisfy the members of the First Division. He had endeavoured last year to satisfy the members of the Second Division. That in one way answered the objections that had been ■raised by various members .regarding accommodation for the public. Emnloyoos First. As a new Minister for Railways, 'he deemed it his' duty first of all to try to satisfy his employees. Ho considered that he should try to make them a contented body and satisfy their wants, and then endeavour to deal with tlie outside public. It would cost a good lot to satisfy all tlie demands of the employees, and until this had been done ho did not sea that ho could meet suoh demands as had been' mado by tlie members for Wellington Suburbs and Wellington East. To accedo to tho demands for .workers' trains and for running trains into Lambton station would cost a considerable amount of money. It would cost about £3000 or £4000 to do what the member for Suburbs had suggested. Ho hoped' next year .to bring in a Bill' to borrow sufficient to increase tho accommodation in Auokland, Wellington, Palmerston, Timaru, Invtrcargill, and Ohriatcliuroh. Ho hoped to bring in a Bill that would satisfy tho demands in respect of these important stations and others a3 welly which he did not remember at tho moment. They would havo to do this to meet requirements. Dr. Newman: It could bo done tomorrow. Mr. Herries: Then some other place would ilir.vo to be left.' The expenditure .for tho year is mapped out. Clamour for Concessions., • Mr. J'. A. Hanan asked the Minister to state the intentions of tlie Government in regard to the suggestion offered last year by tho Opposition that children under five years of age should be Carried on the railways free. Mr. J. H. Bradncy said he hoped tho Minister would reinstate tho sccond express to Auckland; but he was careful to add that ho did not ask that tho train bo run at a loss. Ho did not believe in running ■trains for fun. Ho thought, too, that the second. through train should bo run to a slower timetable and should stop at more way stations. 'Mr. H. Poland wished to know what tho Department would do to step tho risk of life at railway level crossings. ' Mr. W. A. Veitch asked when, tho Minister proposed to bring down tho new regulations, and 'whether thcywould materially improve service conditions in tho Government railways. He urgpd especially that tho division harrier to promotion in tlis service' ought to bo raised. He. would like also to seo tho casual labourers put on a better footing. There were too many "permanent casuals" .in the service, and they ought to bo definitely put upon tho permanent staff. He could not see why the dining-car men and tho sleep-.ing-car attendants, should not be put on to the staff. Mr. V. H. Reed asked'what tho intentions of thO Government were in regard to' the trial of motor trains in New Zealand. Mr. Herries 4-aid that there were two on order for the Government. Mr. Wilkinson complained of the need for a dining-car on the New Plymouth express between Aramoho and, say, Hawera. He thought also that farmers visiting State farms should bo granted reduced fares. Mr. 11. G. Ell thought that workers arriving in towns at 9 a.m. should have tho samo privileges in regard to workers' tickets as thoso arriving at 8 a.m. The nine o'clock workers, he said, wero not paid more wages than the eight o'clock workers, and they needed the concession at least as much as artisans and other workers commencing their day an hour earlier. First Duty to Staff. Tho Hon. W. 11. Herries said, in reply to the question about concessions to children, that he had laid down his policy, vtli ich was first to look to tho needs of bis staff. (Hear, hear.) The new regulations and tho Bill to bo brought down would cost the Department £00,000 or £70,000 a year, but it would give the employees similar concessions to those given to Civil Servants by the Public Service Commissioners. It would give the railway employees "a good big lift," and this he must do before reducing fares and freights. (Hear, hoar.) This necessity to raise the pay, of railway' servants was a legacy from previous Governments, but it was necessary to havo a contented -staff to achieve the best- results in the sorvicc. Ho was prepared to reduce tho amount earned by tho railways from £4 per cent, to £3 los., but ho hoped that next year it would not get below that. If ho followed out the proposal of tho member for Ohinemuri in regard to level crossings, there would not be any monev for road and railway construction. * Ho was getting a report on what the officers of the Department considered dangerous crossings, and ho hoped to install a system of alarm bells at the crossings. Also he was going to ask the local bodies to assist him, as the Southland County Council had dono, by putting up disc danger signals at some distance, say ten chains, away from the crossings. If he could arrange with tho local bodies to do this work on a pound for pound basis it would bo done. Mr. G. Witty asked tho. Minister not to forget tho Second Division of the servico in his reforms, for there wero several anomalies in that branch. Mr. Herries: They have a petition beforo the House now. Lambton Station. Sir Walter'Buchanan pressed tho Minister to answer his previous question as to whether something could not be done for Wairarapa passengers leaving and coming into Wellington Station, who were subjected to discomfort owing to tho trains' being berthed both at arrival and departure at places on the platform where there was no shelter. Ho complained nlso that clie.eaa from, tho WairaraDa factories was im-

perfectly protected against weather and smoke, being only loosely covered by tarpaulins. On .another occasion lie had seen a trainload of cheese standing to tho lee-side of a sheep train. He had seen boxes of cheeso in London disfigured by the fat being molted out of tho cheese, and blame for this lay at tho door of tho Hailwa.v Department. He hoped the Minister would sco that this grave defect was remedied. Tho merchants ill London had told him that last season there 'had been a loss t-o tho country of £150,000 through damage caused to cheeso in transit. -Mr. 0. \V. Russell declared that tho advertising on Wellington Station, particularly tho whisky advertisement at the entrance, was disgraceful, and highly discreditable to the country. He asked tho Minister whether ho could see 'his way to permit old railway servants to exercise the few small privileges they enjoyed as members of tho service. He also wanted to kmow what was to bo the position of Mr. Hiley as General Manager of the" Railways. For his own part ho would not accept tho position that Sir. Hiley would bo responsible to_ Parliament - : he (Mr. Russell) woukT insist upon holding the Minister responsible. Mr. W. A. Veit-ch said it would be possible for the new manager to cut down maintenance,.in such good repair were the bridges, permanent, way, and rolling stock, and so show a profit. Mr. Horrces; He would have to get a new Minister for Railways. Mr. Veitch: I sincerely hope so. Offensive Acivertisemonts. Dr. A. K. Newman said that it was infra dig to placard the Wellington railway station with advertisements, many of which were offensive to 'the people who used the station. Ho did not object to the advertisements on tho Jwardings, but nono should be posted on the station itself. Tho Government should not allow it any more than the British Government would permit advertising on an ironclad. A Late-Hour Incident. Mr. R. M'Galium was greeted with roars of laughter when ho . roso and said: "I db beg the Committee-to put an end to this debate." He ' fiorcely denied an accusation that ho had been asleep all nigjhfc, and said that ho had' been asleep for only ten minutes. 110 accused Wellington members of electionowing and wasting time. Mr. R. W. Smith: What are you doing now ? (Loud laughter.) _ _ . Mr. M'Oallum commended tho Minister for his successful management of the railways. - . The New Station. The Hon. W. He-rries, in reply to Sir Waltc-r Buchanan's ' complaint about Lambton station, said that tho platform verandahs had been considerably extended within tho last six months. Sir Walter Buchanan: No use at all. Mr. Homos saiid that he was afraid tho honourable gentleman would have to wait for tho new station. He hoped that within the next tw r o years a new station ajid a -new platform would bo provided. It did not seem worth whilo to spend a lot of money, on a station which was to.be pulled down within tho next two years. Sir Walter Buchanan said that ho did not want any money spent on the platform. Ho wanted the trains stopped opposite the verandahs. ■ The Minister promised to look into the matter. Ho said that ho would himself visit the station and see where the trains drow up. Ho was not going to go into tho question of whether it was wise to appoint a General Manager, but ho could assuro the House that tho General Manager would not be a Commissioner, but would bo responsible to tho .Minister. ... As to advertisements at railways stations, ho was not aware of anything objectionable in tho advertisements, but ho would communicate- with the Department, and if they , were objcctionablo ho would communicate with the contractor. They did not want objectionable advertisements, and if, without loss, they could have them removed tho Department would do it.. At the samo time, tha country expected the railways to pay, and if the Department could mako money as other did, Jio did not' see why they should not do it out of advertisements. He would look at the advertisement for himself, and if it was objectionable, and ho could remove it, ho would do bo. In reply to Sir* Walter Buchanan, said he would do his best t& seo that rio damage was dono to cheeso in transit. At 1.50, the class. Vorking railways £2,931,250 was passed, and progress was reported. * Tho Houso rose at 1.51 a.m.