THE DEFENCE MINISTER.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1840, 28 August 1913, Page 4

THE DEFENCE MINISTER.

IMPERIAL AND LOCAL NEEDS.

THE 1909 AGREEMENT. Tho Hon. JAS. ALLEN said, that ho liacl nover attempted to deal with cither land or naval defence from a party standpoint. Ho was sorry -that ho could not deal freely as a private, member with tho -subject) raised by tho member for Awarua, but ho had to remember that ho was a niembor of Cabinet. On going to London Lo liad attended a meeting of tho Committeo of Imperial Defence. At tho first meeting of the Committeo which ho attended no was asked whether it would not be wise to discuss tho question first with tho Admiralty. Ho discussed it witli tho Admiralty five or six times. The matter was relegated to a second meeting of tho Committeo of Imperial Defence fivo or six days before ho left England. At that meeting an agreement was como to with which he was quite satisfied 011 behalf of New Zealand. Ho could not communicate tho linos of the agreement then. Tho lottor which ho received from tlio Admiralty as a 'result of that second meeting of tho Committeo of Imperial Defence was given to him at tho railway station as 110 was leaving London. It dealt with matters of important dot-ail which wero inseparable from tlio policy. Ho wrote to London on /tho subject while on his way t-o Canada. Tho Admiralty's reply to that letter had not yet been received. It was dispatched from London on. August 8, and should reach Wellington some timo next month. The Government lmd cabled Homo to ask tho purport of the letter, but had not yet received n reply. Tho letter dealt with matters of detail and until those details came to hand he could not givo, and the Government could not givo, tho House tho policy of tho Government. One Imperial Control. The maiu point in tlio 6peech of tho member for Awarua had been: ' 'Ono control for Imperial purposos." Ho was in entiro accord with that. (Hear, hear.) And he thought every member of tho House would agree. A member: You wero not always. Mr. Allen: I say that I havo always been in favour of one control for Imperial purposes and have never wavered from it for a moment. Ho continued that, on the main principle, he was agreed with Sir Joseph Ward, but in getting to the main principle there wap room for difference of opinion. Tho. lion, gentleman had alluded to the agreement of 1909. Under that agreement the British Admiralty undertook to placo three fleet units in Pacific seas, tlio Australian unit, tho China unit, and tlie East Indies unit. Tho Australian unit was to have been built and maintained b.v the Australians, except that the Mother Country was to contribute £250,000 a 'year towards its support for somo years. Wiien Australia came to meet- the position she decided that it was not fair to call upon the British taxpayer and let the Mother Country off the quarter of a million contribution. Australia had carried out her portion of tho agreement and more. She had built her fleet unit and was meeting its full cost. What had happened with-.regard to the other Eastern fleets? "Mav I ask this House a.nd this country, 5 ' said tho Minister, "where the China unit is, and whoro the East Indies unit is? The China unit was to be provided, with tho exception of tllic battleship New Zcnlantl, by the Mother Country, and she was to provide the whole of tho East Indies fleet." Sir' Joseph Ward: Neither by agreement- nor any suggestion from us. Mr. Allen: It was an agreement- at the timo by Australia, New Zealand, England, and others represented at tho coiiferouco!

.Sir Jdsopli Ward: Tho honotirablo gentleman knows that i absolutely dissented lirom tlio Australian proposal. Mr. Allen: I know tiiat tlio nonourablo gentleman dissented from the Australian local navy. It has to be determined what a local navy is. Australia and Now Zealand 'had carried out their part of tho agreement-, 'l'lio Mother Country did' not think that the battleship New Zealand was given quito unreservedly, because when she mado tlio first arrangement sho placed that ship in tho China seas as llagship on tlio China unit. If sho considered the battle-, ship an unconditional gift, why had sho consulted tho New Zealand Government bei'oro diverting tho battleship to another station? A member: As a matter of courtesy. Mr. Allen: As a matter of common courtesy. Mr. It. W. Smith: Which you don't know much about. Mr. Buick: This is a non-party debate. Tho Primo Minister: Caji't expect anything bettor. Mr. Allen said that he accepted the view that tlio British Admiralty was entitled to placo the battleship where sho liked. Tho Government liad conceded this. Mr. ltussell: Which Government? Bo fair, Mr. Allen said that he was ready to credit tho Mackenzie Government with anything it had done, but ho spoko for his own Government, which had unreservedly placed tlio battleship at tho disposal of tho Mother Country. Mr. Allen said that tho ship was counted now on the list of British ships, aiid tho First Lord of the Admiralty had admitted that if tho ship had not been built, or if it wero now destroyed, it would ho replaced by the British taxpayer. If an Australian Ship wero destroyed tliero would bo no need for tho Admiralty to replaco her by another ship. Tho Australian vessels wero supplemental to tho programme. Under the 1909 agreement tho battleship New Zealand was supplemental to the ordinary British programme. Local Navies. He did not advocate a local navy for local purposes. Ho had told the House, ho had told the country, told tho Committee of Imperial Defence, and tho peoplo of Australia that there was one condition that must bo part of any naval policy—there must be for Imperial purposes an Imperial fleet, under ono Imporial control. Ho did not believe Australians had the idea that their navy was for their own purposes and not at the'disposal of tho Admiralty when the Admiralty wanted it. He believed Australians wero willing that their fleet should be at tho disposal of tho Admiralty when it was required for Imperial purposes. Ho was sorry that fie was to a certain extent tongue-tied. Ho would liko to ho able to go into the whole question in tho fullest possiblo detail, and ho firmly 'believed that before tho end of tho present session tho Government would bo able to submit their proposals for tho naval defence of Now Zealand. It was all very Well to try "to tie ourselves up in an echo of jingoism." j Mr. Russell: What do you mean by that? Mr. Allen: lam going to explain what I mean. It is all very well for somo peoplo to think that we can sit down and think wo arc safe under the conditions prevailing at tho present day. Mr. Payne: Then you don't trust the British Home Office. Mr. Yonng: Oh, shut up! Shut up I Mr. Allen: But thero are those who can roaliso what the position was fifteen or twenty j'ears. ago compared with tho present. They will know that tho position of tho Mother Country with regard to.naval defence was entirely different then from what it .is to-day. A fewyears ago the Mother Country had to withdraw tho hulk of her ships from the Pacific and tho bulk of her ships from tho Mediterranean,,- and, to concentrate them in the North Sea. That created a different situation from that in which tho British Admiralty practically controlled every sea. That is not so to-day, . and tho Admiralty know it perfectly well. The lion, gentleman had said, ho continued; that tho Admiralty favoured ono Imperial Navy for Imperial purposes, but the Admiralty also said it was for every Dominion to. say how it should do its sliaro towards maintaining this Imperial Fleet.

Committed to Nothing. Thcwjhad apparently been a misunderstanding in the minds of hon. members about local navies, and tho Government's intentions. Nothing would bo done by tho Government, and nothing had been dono by him to commit th<* country to any tiugo cost whatever. Tho hon. gentleman had not been quite fair in "hinting, and leading tho country to -, believe, that tho Government were likely to commit tho country to a lrago expenditure for a local navy. Sir. Joseph Ward: That was my opinion. Mr. .Allen: It is the hon. gentleman's opinion, and coming from a prominent gentleman it goes forth to the country, and tho country believes it. I admit that if this country had to go in for a policy of building Dreadnoughts, sho would bo launched into an expenditure which sho could not carry, but I do want tho hon. gentleman to think this question out for himself. Ho Has been thinking out ono side of it only. Ho has been seeing that year by year, month by month, these ships arc becoming out of date, somo of thorn even beforo they actually como off tho stocks. ,1 don't support the building of any of thoso huge battleships. I am going to ask the hon. gentleman whether he has carried his mind evon farther than tho question of the building of Dreadnoughts. Continuing, ho admitted that the Mother Country must have tlieso huge war machines, because her policy must bo an aggressive one; sho must seek out and dlestfoy the enemy. That would not be the policy of this country in the Pacific.

Protection, Not Aggression. "But," he said, "if I understand anything about the position in tho Pacific, it is this—there is never in our minds tho idea of aggression, no idea of lauding upon tho shores of any other country for aggressivo purposes. It is sheer madness to think of tho landing of . Now Zealanders upon tho coasts of China or Japan, for example. Laigo battleships would bo necessary for these' purposes. Our policy is to protect our own shores and our own trade routes, and it is open to question—l received hints of it in the Mother Country—whether tho battleship is tho last word that cau bo said in regard to- naval defence. Wo should be mad, I think, realising that our policy is ono ;iot of aggression but of protection, to launch out in expenditure on these machines of naval warfare. Is it not conceivable that tliero is a naval machine yet to bo produced' very much less costly than tho battleship, which will serve our purposes to protect our shores and sea routes better than very great battiesxiips ? That- question has yet to be solved. . . You may bo cortain the Government has not committed this country to any wild expenditure on naval defence. I know tho honourable gentleman wants to draw me, but I am not going to be drawn to-night." Defenco and Nationhood. But. ho went on to say, we must not rely upon other peoplo doing worl: wo should be doing for ourselves. Other nations who had paid others to do their fighting for them had failed to create a national spirit, and had come to grief, as any country which followed such a policy inevitably must. And lie firmly believed New Zealanders were prepared to do their duty towards their own country and Imperial defenco when thev were asked to do it. There were tlifßcu.Hiu-1 nbgut. tho on? control in Dava] (klcnEOjL diflisulties J.'V'ch tha._

honourable gentleman had seen himself. Tho honourable gentloman had sought to solve those difficulties' by establishing ono Imperial Parliament. Though that might be tlio ideal in tho long distant futuro, thero wcro intermediate stages in which this country might have somo little sliaro in framing tlio policy of Imperial Defence. Our nationhood would dio within us if wo allowed tlio Mother Country solely t-o control our expenditure and our men, having no say ourselves in this control, and nothing to do with it. "'"The day must come," ho said, "when wo shall have somo share in what is being done, somo responsibility moro than wo havo to-day. That must appear to bo so to thoso who look to New Zealand to hecome a great nation. lam sorry I havo had to speak reservedly. I can only assure the honourable gentleman that it would havo given mo tho greatest pleasure to speak unreservedly, and to say all that I would liko to havo said about naval policy." (Applause.) THE MEMBER FOR AVON. CONCERNING ARRANGEMENTS MADE. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said the honourable gentloman had still left tho Houso uninformed as to what arrangements lie had made with tho Brir tisli Admiralty at Home, while tho scheme that ho had arranged had been submittod to tho members of tho Ministry soon after his arrival. It was not remarkable that certain of tlio loading newspapers were somewhat concerned and anxious as to what tho scheme was. It was impossible that thero should still ho such a divergence of opinion between tho Admiralty and the Government that the broad outlines of tho scheme could not bo mado known to the. House. Sinco tho honourable gentleman had become Minister for Defence ho had become obsessed with the idea of emulating Australia in naval dofonce. It was idle to deny it. Tlio Minister had in Australia mado speeches in which he went far towards approving the Australian scheme. Mr. Allen: I did not. Mr. Russell sayl ho would not like to contradict tho honourablo gentleman. Ho pointed out however that wo had need for all our resources for development work, for which tho country cried ceaselessly. And already we had committed ourselves to largoly increased expenditure, amounting in all to nearly £800,000 a year on account of defence. The Minister had however committed tho country to an expenditure of moro than £100,000 on naval defonco, in that ho had altered tho form of our expenditure.

Mr. Massey: Ho has committed the country to nothing. Mr. Russell said that Mr. Allen had, by altering tho form of our contribution of £100,000, practically committed tho country to tho payment of moro than this sum annually in futuro. It might happen .under Mr. Allen's altered plan that wo might pay £500,000 a year to tho Admiralty. His own idea was that we should adhere to tho historic policy of this country—one fleet, cne flag, and ono Admiralty. Tho effect of tlio Ministers action, on tho other hand, might bo to strain tho allegianco of our people to the British flag. Mr. Allen: I think that is a very unfair tiling to 6ay. Mr. Fis'hor: It's just like him. Mr. Russell said tho Minister had discredited tho largo battleships on which tho Navy mostly relied. Mr. Allen: I did nothing of the sort. Mr. Russell said ho would like to see Now Zealand spend money on naval defenco, on torpedo boats, destroyers, and harbour defences, provided a corresponding reduction was mado in tho cost of our land defences. Our present expenditure on defence was enough to make! us pauso. i