PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1839, 27 August 1913, Page 4

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION.

IRRIGATION BILL.

THE PUBLIC TRUST OFFICE

STATE GUARANTEE.

COMMISSION'S FINDINGS DISCUSSED.

Tlio Houso of Representatives met at 2.30 p.m. Mr. J. 11. BRADNEY (Auckland West) gave notice to ask tho Minister for Railways whether ho would appoint a committee to inquire into the causes of the Now Lynn railway accident. Mr. E. H. CLARK (Chalmers) gave uotico to aslc the Government whether they would establish a wireless station at Port Chalmers, or-whether, failing this, they would subsidise tho equipment of the new tug at Port Chalmers witli a wireless plant. Tho Hon. A. L. liERDMAN (Attor-ney-General) gave notice of liis intention to introduce tho Water Supply Amendment Bill. IRRIGATION BILL. Tho Irrigation and AVater Supply Bill was introduced by Governor's Messago. The Hon. W. I'. MASSEY (Prime Minister) said tho Bill was an authorising Act providing for the raising of certain moneys to bo used for tho purpose of irrigating arid territories in some parts of Now Zealand, and especially in Central Otago. The Government would, under the Bill, bo empowered to raiso a sum not exceeding £100,000 at a rate not oxcceding JJ- per cent. Tlio Bill was read a first time.

PUBLIC TRUST OFFICE.

Mr. Russell: If tliev will attach it lo the report.

Mr. Hcrdman repeated that, as- he bad said oil the second reading of the Hill, tlio Hill had the entire approval of t-ho Public Trustee. Even- Clause 40, providing for secrecy, had been recommended by the Trustee, and the reason for tllio extra precaution was that the office was concerned with those things about which it was specially desirable to observe secrecy. Mr. Davey: Do you know of any eases of of ail important character baring leaked out of tlie office? Mr. Hcrdman: Oh, yes, 1 do. I know information has been leaking out of the offico. Commissioners and Evidence. Mr. G. W. Forbes asked tho Minister whether ho knew thart tho Commissioners wore going to take evidence confidentially. When the evidenco was not given, the value of tho report was much discounted. It seemed that a great deal of evidence of law societies and lawyers Ijad been taken, ami there was a strong suspicion abroad that too much weight had been attached to this evidence, and that an attempt bad been mado by the legal profession, to stranglo the Public Trust Office. Parliament bad a right to know "what game these societies wcro up to," and their evidence at least should not bo confidential. To keep tilie evidence secret and to suppress tiro Public Trustee's report was not giving the Public Trustee a square deal in that be could not reply to reflections upon bis administration of tlie office. "MODERN INSTANCES." CITED BY MR, HER-DiMAN. The Hon. A. L. Herdmaiij asked whether the honourable gentleman could point to any one. statement in tho report, of the Public Trust Commission reflecting upon tho Public Trust Office. Mr. Forbes: Yes. Shall I quote it? Mr. Hcrdman said that tho report showed that the office bad emerged from the ordeal with great The report presented by tho Commission must be regarded as highly _ gratifying by all thoso who took an interest in the Public Trust Office. As to tho question of-secrecy, every man in tho Land and Income Tax Department had' to sign a declaration on entering . the offico.

BILL IN COMMITTEE. CONFIDENTIAL EVIDENCE. At 2.50 p.m. the Houso went into Committee 011 the Public Trust Oflico Amendment Bill. Mr. A. 11. Hindmarsh asked tho Attorney-General to accept certain amendments to tlio Bill, to mako it possiblo for the Public Trustee, as executor of tho estate of a worker killed in tlio courso of his employment, to tako action for damages on behalf of tho relatives wider the Workers' Compensation Act. Sinco moneys payable under this Act were to bo received and disbursed by tho Public Trustee in overy case., 110 argued that the duty slionldJio put upon the Public Trustee of instituting proceedings for tho recovery of the moneys. Tlio Hon. A. L, Herdman said tho amendments were a very great departure from tho present law, and ho preferred not to givo any undertaking that lie would accept tho amendments. His own belief was that 110 serious obstacles were put in tho way of beneficiaries taking action under tlio Workors' Compensation Act, and that tlio procedure was not expensive. In. view of these facts, he preferred not to mako such a serious alteration in tho law without giving tho matter somo longer consideration.

An honourable) member: The Post Office ?

Mr. Hmlni.in: Possibly in the fost Office also. In any case, what disability did it impose on anybody that ho should have to regard' official information coming into his possession as secret? Tho honourable gentleman perhaps did not like-it. Ho would perhaps prefer that these men .should bo allowed to wander about tho staeot giving information to anyone about the business of tho Public Trust Offieo. (Opposition dissent.) "A Specific Charge." Did the late Government, Mr. Herdman asked 1 , supply the House with infoinnation when they mado an investigation into the Land and ; Income Tax Department? Mr. Killer: And dismissed Mr. Hoyesl Mr. Herdman: Yes, and did not allow him to make tiny statement. Mr. Russell: That was a specific I ohnrge. | Mr. Herdman: It was an investigation into the working of the offieo, and whatever it was tho principle was precisely the same. Mr. Russell; No analogy. Mr. ITordman: Tho Government of which the honourable gentleman was a supporter refused to give information 011 that occasion. Mr. Russell: It was not a Department on trial then. It was 0110 man. Mr. Herdman said that tho reason, tho Commissioners had decided to treat the evidcnco confidentially was that tliov realised when, they undertook tho task that the only way to get a full disclosure as to tho working of this important .office was to intimate to the witnesses that their evidence would bo treated as confidential. That was the only way in which information could have been obtained. "Absurd nnd Ridiculous." Absurd and ridiculous statements had been made from time to time about the desire of the Government to benefit tho legal profession. There was no desire on tho part of the legal profession to eucroach upon tho business of the Public Trust Office, but he did not expcct tho member for Avon to believo this. It had been said by a distinguished lawyer, Lord Brougham, that a lawyer was a man who rescuod your estato from your enemy, and kept it for himself.' 'The member for Avon regarded every lawyer in the same cynical way. Mr. Kussell. "Would it surprise you to know that I never once mentioned that aspect of the matter? Mr. Herdman: Have you not? Mr. Russell: I may "do it now. Mr. Herdman said that tlio member for Wairau and others had commented adversely upon tho attitude of tho Government towards the Public Trust Offieo. Most of the work dono in tho offieo was legal in its character, and the oflico had to get the best legal assistance in tho country to get that work properly done. There was no suggestion that tho legal work of the office would bo interfered with in any way, but at present considerable delay took placo owing to the fact that legal work arising at places so-distant as Jnvereargill or tho_ West Coast had to bo sent up to Wellington. Tho evidenco was clear upon tho point that tho legal work would have to bo decentralised. Last year the Ilouso passed a Bill providing that greater powers should bo conferred upon the deputy trustees at Ohristclmrdh, Auckland, and Dunedin. These powers had now been delegated and tho deputies had power to administer estates up to £'1000 in value. Ho proposed that the deputies should bo permitted, if the necessity arose, to have some of the legal work dono in their respective centres, with a view to expediting nialtors only. It was vit.il to tho success of tlh! Public Trust.Oflico that this logal work should bo dono well. Tho making of wills, tho administration of trusts, etc.. involved legal work of tho most difficult kind. It was therefore necessary that the Public Trust Offieo should ha ve i he best legal aw,istaneo obtainable. ''The best lawyer," said tho Minister, "will keep you out of litigation, an indifferent lawyer will get you into litigation, and a bad lawyer will never lei you out of litigation." All this talk about the legal friends of tho Government should stop and cease once for all.

Mr. R. M'Callum gave notico that 110 proposed to move to strike out tho clause providing for tho employment of outside solicitors by tho Public Trustee. Ho had 110 objection to the work of big estates being dono by outsido solicitors, but tlio work of small estates should bo. kept strictly within the office. /

Mr. T. jr. Wilford spoke of flic clauso providing for tlie appointment of an advisory trustee. Ho pointed out that whilo "tlio testator, the settler, and tlio creator, of tho trust" could appoint an advisory trustee, a beneficiary could not do so without a motion in tho Supremo Court. He did not think any obstaclo should bo put in tho way of beneficiaries appointing advisory trustees. Ho disapproved of tho provision by which tho Public. Trustee was empowered to employ outside solicitors. IJ" asked tho Minister to state tho reason for inserting Clause 40: ".Every member oi : the staff of tlio Public Trust Office , and every member of tho Office Board' shall bo bound to secrecy by declaration in tho prescribed form." Was it because of the recommendations of the Commissioners? Ho had understood that all Civil Servants worn bound to_ secrecy. Why, then, tlio need for this special provision in respect to tho Public Trust Office? . Recent Commission's Findings. Mr. G. W. Russell complained of the lack of infoimation supplied to the House about the Public Trust Office, especially ; n regard to tho recent ltoyal Commission. The findings of tho commission were given, but none of the evidence, whereas in the report of a previous commission inquiring into tlio Public Trust Office whilo a Liberal Government was in power in 1891, all tho evidence was supplied to Parliament. Xor had tho Public Trustee's report supplied to tho Government, in wliich presumably thero was somo criticism of the Commissioners' findings, been tabled in tho House. _ Tho Minister point-blank refused to give tho information, "relying on his bruto majority and his dumb dopes to see him through.'' Mr. Guthrie: They're all right. Mr. Russell: I daro say that suits the Chief Government Whip. That's about his idea of tlio rights of Parliament and tho Government of tho country Mr. Rhodes: Wo learned it in a good school. Mr. Russell—to sit quiet and do nothing, while groat constitutional' questions are being discussed, whilo the rights of tho people, tho rights of Parliament aro being trampled upon by an autocratic Ministry which got into nower by saving that 110 information should he withheld from tho people. This, Mr. Russell concluded, was not a square deal. Keeping Faith. The Hon. A. L. Herdman' said it was apparent lliat- the prc.sont Government were giving the neople a squaro deal and not the misdeal given them by the previous Government. Ho was asked to hand over to the House the evidence taken before the Commissioners. But ho had already told tho House that wiien the evidence was given it was given 011 the understanding that it was to he confidential. In the face of the undertaking of the Commissioners to the witnesses, that their eonfidei'ee would be respected,' he would consider it a breach of faith to make the evidence public. If tho member for Avon would not accept his statement that the evidence was to he confidential (and Mr. Russell s'.iil he would not) lie would get a letter from ihe Commissioners, signed and attested as a legal document. Would i hat satisfy the honourable gentlemen? Mr. Russell: I will aeeepl the teller wilhcnil the atlesl-lion. Mr. ITerdnian: Then you will accept I a letter from tho Commissioners?

Was tlio Evidence Confidential? .Mi'. Wilionl said that lie luid luider--111si;I 1 lu- lion. In say tlmi Uio evidence given to tlio Commissioners was understood bj tlicw to bo conlidcn-

tial. He ventured to contradict tho hon. gentleman, and to say that tho evidence given to the Commissioners was not confidential. He referred to page 12 of t'lie report of the, Commission, and contended Mat not only did tho Commissioners not say t'hat tho evidence was confidential; they assumed, in tho report presented to Parliament, that members of tho Ilouso would seo tho cvidenco. On page 12 they'said: "The view expressed by us, as will bo seen from the evidence "

Mr. Herd man: Who was tho commission addressed to?

Mr. Wilford: Tho lion, gentleman can read tho front of it as well as 1 can. ile read: "Presented to both Houses of Parliament by command of his Excellency tho Governor." If the .Minister had correctly stated tho position, he, added, tile paragraph on Pago 12 would have read: "The viow expressed'by us as will not bo seen from tho evidence "

out. They provide respectively that tho Public Trustee may act on written statements or declarations as to matters of pedigree or relationship, and that ho may tnko professional advice and act on credible information as to matters of fact. Mr. M'Callum contended that these clauses wore against the public interest, and that it was illogical to grant greater safeguards to the. Public Trustee than 'to private trustees. Mr. llerdman said tlhat anyone wronged by the Public Trustee would have a claim against the State.. Tho Public Trustee was in a different position from a private trustee, and should be fully protected. Similar clauses had worked very well in England. _ 1 Mr. .M'Callnm repeated his objection's, and said that the sting of tihe proposal ■was in its tail. It was proposed to make it retrospective, covering everything that had been done for tho Avo years. .Had tlio report of the Public Trusteo, which was supposed to have been sent back, contained something which explained tho inclusion of theso clause® 'in t.ho Hill ?

Mr. G. W. Forbos said that the report of tlio Commission cast sorious rcllcctions upon the Public Trustee, and that tlio Minister bad not allowed that official to say ono word in his defence. They wcro told that a report bad been sent in by tho Public Trustee, and had been suppressed. Ho did not know wliothcr this was true or not. Would tlio country say under these circumstances that tho Public Trust Offico was getting a square deal? Mr. Fisher: What sort of square deal did you give to Mr. Hoyos? Mr. Forbes angrily protested that tho Minister should not dig into past history. Various Other Crltlds. Mr. A. H. Hindinarsli defended tho Minister from the reproach that ho was seeking by this measure to benefit tho legal profession. Ho 'was suro that the Minister was acting in tho public interest. In fact, the Minister bad in some cases run counter to tho interests of tlio legal profession. Tho Hon. J. A. Millar did not think it was fair that money loss occasioned by licgligorico or misfeasance of any officer should bo charged to profit and loss, as was proposed ill tlio Bill. The officers of the Public Trust should bo put on tho samo footing as other officers of tho Public Service. An officer should either be required to enter into a fidelity bond on entering tho offico, or there should bo established a guarantee fund, m connection with tho offico. Of other provisions in the Bill 110 approved entirely, but ho thought the business of the branch offices in the centres away from Wellington would bo just as well expedited at less expense by tho employment of a solicitor on tho staff at these offices as by the employment of outsido solicitors. Mr. W. A. Voitcli said lie did not propose to imputo unworthy motives to the Minister, but .ho thought it would be a calamity to the people if the legal work of tho Public Trust Office were curtailed. Mr. Herdman: There is absolutely 110 intention of doing anything of tho kind. Mr. Ve.itcli said lie hoped the Minister would not only not reduce the legal work of the oflico, but extend it considerably. Not Quite Satisfied. Dr. A. K. Newman said ho had not been satisfied with the administration of' tho Public Trust Offico for several | years. Tho office had been understaffed, and the staff had been over-worked. This did not mako for the best results. But tho Minister seemed to say that tlio report exonerated tho Public Trustee. In this opinion ho did not concur, hi tho administration of tho Taranaki Nativo leases the Public Trusteo had not kept an even keel, but had leaned in favour of the whites as against tho Natives. Also the charge of 7J per cent, for tho collcction of Nativo rents was extortionate. Outside of tho House thcro was a strong feeling that the Minister proposed to give legal business of tho Public Trust Ofßeo to outsido lawyers, at the expense of peoplo putting their estates into the Public Trust Office. And it seemed) to him, that in two or three clauses of tho Bill the Minister was taking power to give business to outside lawyers. He believed that more reproductive investments could be found for tho capital of small estates. Certainly better rates than J} per cent, could bo got by a privato trusteo who had his wits about him, and if tlio Public Trustee did not do so, business would be diverted from tho offico. Ho approved of tho Bill. Mr. Russell Indignant. Mr. G. W. Russell resumed tho discussion on tho non-production of tho evidence taken by tho Commissioners. If the evidence had been really confidential tlio Minister should not have seen it, and ho argued that as a member of Parliament ho (Mr. Russell) hadisas good a right as tho Minister to look at tho evidence. Mr. Herdman: I wish I could lay tho evidence on the table. Mr. Russell argued again that tho Public Trustee had not been given' a square deal in that the- suppression of his report denied him his right of reply to the criticisms of the Commissioners. The Minister had, in denying that Oio wished to hand out legal business to outsido lawyers, directed his remarks to liipi, although ho (Mr. RusSell} had never referred to tho matter at all. 11l spite of this some "hireling scribe" would doubtless chronicle that he had. "There is a factory being established in these buildings," lie said, "aud i don't think it is far from tho Minis-. ter'.s room—which exists for the purposo of totally misrepresenting tho position and attitude of members of the Opposition, and myself in particular." The short titlo of tho Bill was agreed to at 1.50, after two hours' debate. The Lay Members. ■ In reply to Mr. Wilford tho Minister said that tho Government had not yet considered whom they should appoint as the "two persons not holding any offico in tho Public Service, to bo appointed by tho Govornor-in-Council" 011 tho Public Trust Office Board. No applications would bo called, and the successful appointeo would not ho selected by ballot, ho declared amidst laughter. Mr. Russell wanted to know whether the appointment was intended for Mr. David Jonos, when ho ceased to ho an efficient organiser for the Reform party. Mr. R. M'Callum moved to striko out tho authority to appoint two outside business men as members of tlio Public Trust Offico Board and to provide that Civil Servants should bo appointed in their stead. The proposal in the Bill, ho said, would simplv mean throwing away £500 a year'and would enable tho Government to confer fa. vours unon some of its friends. Tlio Minister defended the appointment of lay members on. tho board on the ground that their business experience would bo of tho utmost value, and asked tlio Houso to reject tho amendment. Mr. M'Callum called for a division, but did not press tho matter and tho amendment was finally negatived on tlio voices. Native Trust. Mr, Ngata asked whether the provision in Clauso 11, entitling a beneficiary in a trust estate to liavo its affairs investigated by a solicitor or accountant actint; under tllie instructions of the, Public Trustee, would apply to Native trust estates. Tho Maoris, ho stated, wished to liavo tho benefit of this provision. Mr. Herdman said that he thought the clause would apply to Native trust estates, but ihe did not adopt a suggestion by Mr. Ngata that a new subclause should be embodied making it clear that the scope of the clause extended to these estates . Tlio Trustee's Liability. Mr. M'Callum asked the Minister Why Clauses 25 and 2G should not be struck

Mr. Herdman said that ho was informed that tho clause was copied from the Imperial Act. In two cases in tho past the true next of kin had turned up after tho Public Trustee had acted upon statutory declarations, and theso persons Hind been compensated out of tho funds of tllie office. If any such eases ocourred in, future, tflic persons concerned would bo compensated' either out of tho funds of the office or from tho funds of the Stato. Mr. I).- Bwldo objected strongly to any reduction in the responsibility of tho Public Trustee. "The Test to Apply." Mr. Russell said that the test to apply to this clafiso would bo: Was 1 tho Minister prepared to confer similar powers in the administration of private trusts? Tho scope of the clause was so wide as to cover everything. If tho clause became law the position would bo tlmt if a person in Scotland, say, mado a false declaration and an estate was divided up amongst tho wrong persons, there was to be no relief. And tills was to apply to, all transactions from the establishment of tho Public Trust. He urged tho Government to defer the clause,' and if thcro was a need to deal with epccilio cases to deal with them in specilio clauses in a Washing-up Hill. Wrong and Right. Mr. Herdman said 110 wanted to point out that if money wcro paid out to tho wrong person and tho right person came along afterwards 110 would liavo to bo compensated by tho Stato. Mr. llussell: What is tho clause wanted for, then? Mr. Hcrdnian said that it had happened in tho history of tho Public Trust Offico that in two or tlirco cases tho Public Trusteo, quito inadvertently, and acting upon a statutory declaration or a birth certilicatc, had paid out money to persons who were not entitled to reccivo it, the true benefioiary turning up afterwards. In theso eases tho true beneficiary had been paid out of tho funds of tho'Public Trust Oflico. This must happen in the case of tho Public Trustee and liis position was different from that of a private trusteo. In 9C| cases out of a hundred a privato trustee know who the beneficiaries were. The Public Trusteo often had enormous difficulty in discovering beneficiaries, 110 wanted to proteot tho Public Trusteo himself. Tho Stato would have to meet claims where moneys wcro paid ill the first instauco to the wrong persons. Facts About Tho Clause. Mr. E. P. Lee said that in that casa ho did not seo t'lio need for tho clause. Tho Stato would never lcavo the Public Trusteo to personally meet claims. Tho effect of tho clause would bo to protect the Public Trust funds. Ho pointed out to the. Opposition, however, that if the clauso were struck out tho Public Trusteo would be thrown into tho position that when there was any doubt ho would have to refer tho matter to the Supremo Court. There tho parties would fight tho matter to tlio bitter end—a state of affairs'that would bo very satisfactory to the lawyers. An Important Diflorence. Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh said that ho could not understand tlio opposition to tho clauso. A privato trustee could refuse to accept a trust if ho wished to do so. The Public Trustee had to accept any trust and was bound to mako mistakes sometimes. It was therefore necessary that 110 should bo protected when ho made a bona-lido mistake. If small estates wcro to bo satisfactorily administered thcro must be somo such, protective clauso as this. Mr. , Russell said . that lio took the position to bo that wlien money from an estate was paid to a wrong person and tho right person turned up afterwards, tlio latter would bo reimbursed out of tlio common fund of the Publio Trust Office. Mr. Herdman: Yes. Mr. ltusscll asked wliothcr the sumo position would obtain if tho clauso under discussion became law. Tho question was passed over at the time, but when Mr. Davey repeated it somo timo later the Minister replied iu tho affirmative. The Retrospective Provision. Mr. M'Callum said that in tho Imperial Act tlio clauso was in tlio part referring to'custodian trustees. It had been taken out and mado general in tlio Bill beforo tlio House. Tlio retrospective provision did not appear in tho English Act. The Minister must take tho responsibility of having misled tho House in this matter. , Mr. Hcrdnian: Nothing of tlio kind. Mr. Forbes said that tho Minister had misled the House in refereiico to this, ami a previous Bill. Mr. llerdman: What was tliat. J Mr. Forbes: Tho Police Offences Act. Von -told us that a clause was a copy from the English Act, and it was nothing of tho sort! 1 "Wild Statemonts." Tlio Hon. A. L. Herdman said ho wished to reply to tho "wild statements" of tho member for Wairau and tho member for Hurumii, 'What ho had said when -the section was beforo tho Houso was that it was based 011 a. station of the Imperial Act. Aitor quoting tho clause in the Imperial Act ho «aid: "For the honourable gentleman to sav that I was misleading tlio Houso is absolutely contrary to act.The clauso in this Bill was exactly tho samo in principle as that 111 the lUlglisli Act. It was equally contrary to fact to say that lie had misled tlio Houso in regard to the 1 olico Ollciiccs Act The section 111 the Bill before tlio Houso was needed for the efficient management of tlio Public Trust Office. The Public Trusteo had now moneys m hie hands, which were being claimed by persons who, ho was morally certain, wcro tlio persons properly entitled to them, but lie wished to be protected before 110 paid tho money over. "You will be having a Court of Chancery here presently," 110 said, "if you accept tlio advico of the lion, member for Wairau. The hon. gentleman wants to lock thousands and thousands of pounds up iu the hands of the 1 nunc Trustee, and establish an old Court or Cha -cery, like we used to road about in Dickens's novels. What we want to establish—what wo, the Liberal Gpvernnicnt of tho colony, who wish to give a square deal, want to db—(Cries of dissent and "Hoar, hear") —and what the lion, member for Wairau docs not want, us to do —is to seo that when we got a thousand pounds, and we are morallv certain who is entitled to it, we shall pav it over. What objection is there to protection? 'iho lion, member wants the Public Trustee put in the same position as a private trusteo. 1 don t undcistand the lion, gentleman : lie is an impossible sort ol person. Ins method of reasoning nobody could understand,. ... If lie is not. i'u encmv of the Pub*

lie Trust Office he will vote for the clause, and if he is an enemy of it he will vote against it." > After some further discussion, Mr, Herdman said that Clauso' 25 wWld eatable tho Publio Trustee to accept proofs that ho would' not accopt at tQio present tamo, and would make it possible to administer estates more .expeditiously. The Effect of the Clause. Mr. Statham said that he knew of ' some oases in winch the Public Trustee was at present afraid to pay out money in the absGJico of sufficient proof. He could see that tho object of tho clause was to facilitate -business' and to reduce litigation. There was no doubt in his mind, however, that the effect of the clause would be to completely exonerate tho Publio Trust Office and the Government from any obligation to pay the money from an, estate to the right person if it had. once been paidi to a wrong ' pea-soak The P-uiblio.. I Trustee should ho required to talce/ an indemnity from beneficiaries to whom ho mado : payments. ; , Mr.. Ell said that the effect of the clause would be to relax the care which had been taken by tho' Public Trust Office in past years. . Mr. AV. A. Ycitdh and Mr. A. _ H. Hindmarsh thought the clause contained a' sensible and l reasonable proposal, tout ■Mr. Voitch thouj&t it should apply only .to small estates, not exceeding,. &ay,' £500 in value. ■ ■ Amendments Accepted, The Hon. A. L. Herdman said ho was prepared) to accept the suggestion of tho member for Wanganui—that the clause should not apply to estates exceeding £600 in value—audi also the suggestion of tlio member for Wairau, that the clause should not bo made retrospective. Mr. Russell -said that' he wanted a clear statement, as to what wo-uldi happen even in these estates of £500 or less if money had been paid-out to tho wrong person. Would the right claimant bo paid) if he came along afterWards? Tho Minister did not seem to have mado any decided statement on the subject. Government members: Yes, he has. Mr. Herdman: Again and again.' In Case of Mistake. Mr. Russell asked where the law was that would compel tho. trustee to pay , Over to tho right person if he had once paid it already to tho wrong person. Mr. Herries: How are you going to gee tho law until you get to tlie I'rivy Council? Tho Hon. A. L. Herdman said that there had at times been in the hands of the Public Trustee 1 thousands of pounds which he could pay out if ho 6 .were freed from liability. The method , adopted in the past was that when a 1 payment was wrongfully, paid, and t-he ; rightful owner turned up later, a vote < .was taken on the Estimates' for - the ■ payment. There had been in the his- ; tory of the Public Trust Oifice very few payments to the wrong people, and in \ every- case tho payments had been voted on tho'Estimates, to tho right-people. The Hon. D. Buddo said he did not ' favour any limit of any kind, and lie thought tho 'Public Trust Office, a pro-fit-earning institution, did not meed any protection at all against mistake. Mr. E.-P. Leo pointed out . that : Clause 24, under which the Publie 1 Trustee could apply to. tho Supreme i Court for a direction as to how to distribute moneys in his hands, was already passed .by the House. It was ' possible for the Supremo, Court to make a mistake, a rightful owiler coui: not then -recover against the Public i Trustee. i

Mr. R. M'Callum said ha would offer 110 further objection, to the clause if the Minister itoiilc! accept the following proviso: "That if any sum of money is wrongfully paid, the Consolidated Fund should be liable to pay the full amount to tho rightful owner." , The Hon. Yv". IT'. Herries said that the Consolidated Fiind' should not lio liable, but rather the Common Fund of the office., Ho argued that the clause .would help poor beneficiaries by facilitating quick settlements. The members ou the other side were* working against the poor people. ,It must not be supposed as they seemed to suggest that the Public Trustee would pay out to the first man who came along, butthe Public Trustee should not be required to hunt the world over in search for rightful heirs when he was morally sure that tho rightful heirs were those applying. All this advertising for heirs cost money, and tho small estates for poor peoplo were dissipated. < The Stato Guarantee.. When the discussion was continued after the supper adjournment Mr. HerdKan denied absolutely tho validity of a Contention .by Mr. Ell, that ail attempt, .was being madq to interfere in any way with the State guarantee under which tho Public Trust Offico works. Mr. Hindmarsh -expressed surprise at the line of argument adopted by Mr. Ell. The question of the guarantee, ho Stated, was not involved. Mr. Russell said that the Opposition would no longer object to the clause if it were made clear that a claimant would not forfeit his claim by reason of the fact, that payment had Deen made to the wrong person. The position now was that in tho case of thertch man tho Public Trustee remained liable, but that in the case of the poor (nan the liability was to be terminated. Labour Support. Mr. W. A. Veitch strongly supported the clause, and admitted that lie was at a loss to understand tho Opposition for dt. In this case tho Labour section would support the Government, as they always would in any proposal of which they could approvo, just as they 'Iffould fight the Government tooth'» and Hail on any proposal of which they could not approve. In some, further passages that 'took placo between Mr. Veitch and Mr. Ell, the first-named stated that tho member for Christchurch South liad. made matters as clear as mud.

Mr. Buddo was presently on his feet confessing .that lie had been on both sules of the fence, and now found himself on the middle. He was inclined to think that the liability should apply to estates of a lower valuo than £500 •instead of to estates of a greater valuo. Mr. J. Payne supported the position Itakeu by Mr. Voitcli.

Tho Minister's amendment to , limit the application of the clause to ' estates of £500 or less in value was carried bv 41 votes, to 19.

Mr. G. W. Russell then . moved an amendment to add a proviso that in no case should tho Public Trustee bo relieved of !\ny liability that would bo put upon a private'trustee. The Hon. A. L. Herdman said that to insert tho proviso would make tho Jvholo thing absolutely ridiculous.

Mr. T. 31. AVilford said he hoped tho Jnember for Avon would not persist with his amendment, which would ma-ko fhe clause contradictory in itself. Mt. D. Bnddo hoped that tho member for Avon would press his amendment to a division.

Tho amendment was defeated by 44 ,votes to 16, and tho clause as amended jvas carried.

The next fifteen clauses w'ero passed ■unchallenged, but at Clause <10, relating to binding members of the board and tho staff to secrecy, tho Hon. A. T. Nfzata! moved that the. clauso be made to apply also to agents of tho Public Trustee. The amendment was accepted by the Minister, and was carried on the voices. The Hon. A. L. Herdman .moved to cxchidn moneys lost by misfeasance from those to bo charged to profit and' loss. Tho amendment was carried on 'the voices. Mr. R. M'Callum moved an amendment to strike out of the last clause all refCTonco to the employment of ontsido solicitors. The amendment was lost on tho voices. Legal Bureau idea. Mr. W. A. .Vcitcli moved to add a

proviso to tihe clause under which it might bo made possible for people of moderato means to consult the lawyers in the Public Trust; Office and get legal advico from tliom.

The Hon. A. L. Herdman said' lis was soriy lie could not accept tho proposal of the honourable gentleman. Tlio work wlricih tho_ Public Trust Office had to do was quite enough without constituting a legal bureau as well. It was w<3l to remember that gratuitous work oould'not be d'bno by the office without reducing the profits on- the common fund in which moneys of beneficiaries wero iaivosted. If a-legal bureau was to bo sot up, it moist bo a separate institution and not an adjunct to the Public Trust Office.

i Mr. Veitcli did not press his amend- • merit, awl it-was declared'lost, i Mr. G. Forbes moral to add a new clause giving the Publio Trustee ; power to have all tlio ordinary i legal Vorlc of tlie office done by staff barristers and solicitors, and to engage the services- of outside' barristers or for special business. Tho Hon. A. L. Herdman said tlio Public Trustee had already all the powers which tihe clause proposed to confer upon liiiii. It was useless, and ho could not therefore accopt tlio clause. The clause was defeated on the voices. Important Proposal. Mr. A. H. Hindmarsh moved a new . clauso to give effect to his proposal, made earlier in the debate, that tlie . Public Trustee, upon whom-was imposed the duty of receiving and disbursing tlio compensation paid in respect of the death of' a worker by -accident, should also bo required to undertake tho duty of collecting tho\moneys. • Tho Hon. A. L. Herdman said he was prepared to admit that somo such .amendment as that proposed should bo put into tho Bill. However, the amendment was one of very great importance, and he did not care to put it in the Bill without duo consideration. Ho would suggest that the amendment might properly be put into/an amendment of tho Workers' Compensation Act, which would como bofore the House this session. He would suggest that Mr. Hindmarsh Jiold over his amendment, and that Mr. Hindmarsh discuss it with' luim._ Ho would, then premise to submit it to Cabinet, and if his colleagues approved he would introduce it into the Bill in tho Upper House, or possibly into tho amendment of the Workers' Compensation Act. Mr. Hindmarsh accepted the Ministor's suggestion, and withdrew liis amendment. Mr. G. W. Russell moved to add a new clause making it obligatory upon the Public Trustee to prepare a report every year on the work of-the Public. Trust Office, such report to bo transmitted to the Minister and laid by him on tho table of the House within fourteen' days of tho opening of Parliament. The clauso was agreed to on the voices. PENSIONS BILL. INCREASING, THE BENEFITS. The Pensions Bill was reached at four minutes before midnight. Six clauses of this Bill, which is mainly a consolidating measure, had already been passed by the Committee of the House. ' Mr. W. A. Veitcli made a suggestion to the Minister in charge of the Bill (the Hon. F. M. B. Fisher) that the term within which imprisonment 'prior to the attainment of pensions ajo would disqualify an applicant bo reduced from 12 years to six years. Tlie Minister said that the change would havo affected only 18 applicants for pensions since the Old Age Pension Aot was first passed. Ho was therefore willing to accept the amendment. The Primo Minister, however, raised - a point o! order that tho amendment was an-appropriation, and his contention was upheld b'y tho Chairman.

Protests were, raised by Mr. Young "and Mr. Veitch against the heavy penalty—loss of' pension—imposed on an old man for being unlucky enough to bo arrested for drunkenness. The .Minister said "Eho matter was covered by a new chuso which ho proposed to add to the Bill.

Mr. P. C. Webb urged the Minister to increase tho age up to which allowance would bo made to widows for children, from 14 to 16 years, and that no exception should bo made against'illegitimate children. The Minister said he could not accept tho proposal relating to i illegitimate children, and tho other proposal, being-an appropriation, could not be moved in Committee. . Many clauses wero passed without discussion, and a number of re-drafted clauses wero inserted. Progress was reported on the Public Trust Office- Amendment Bill and the Pensions Bill at 0:50 a.m. BLUFF HARBOIft? BILL. When tho House resumed, Sir Joseph Ward gave notice to introduce the Bluff Harbour Board Empowering Bill. ' Tho House rose at 0.52 a.m.