FINANCIAL DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1833, 20 August 1913, Page 8

FINANCIAL DEBATE.

' OPPOSITION WORK. NAVAL POLICY. - Mr. J. C. THOMSON (Wallace) resumed ■ the debate on. the Budget at 3.10 p.m., wlien it seemed in imminent , danr ger of -breaking down. The Speaker was putting Hie question: "That the House go into Committoo of - Supply," whan Mr. Thomson roso to his feet. After• alluding to the naval-position in ©aiiada, he' predicted that any Government in this country which went to tho polls, oai the question, of a local navy would, never get back to the Treasury benches. , He ridiculed the idea of a local navy as preposterous, paid .accused the Minister for Defence of having ohanged his attitude in the matter., On his way Hornet the member , for Wallace stated, Mr. Allen ' had "said that the time had come when New Zealand-should have''its-own ships', manned by its own men ] and paid, for with its own- money. Coming out again, he had struck a different note. The Government's proposals for the reform of the Upper Houso, Mr: Thomson stated, tended in tho direction of creating a Second Chamber that would dominate the Lower House. He blamed the Government for not taking the Houso into its confidence in regard to the pending legislation affect. in'g the Bank ,of- -New Zealand. Tho State, he contended, should-not relax its present control over the bank. Important Bills which he had mentioned should have been already before the House, and he hoped that tho Government would not hold them back until the latter end of tho session,, when it-, would'be 'impossible to deal with tharn properly.. There was notliing in the 'Budget about economy. The report of the Public Service Commissioners should have been, before, tho House during the Financial Debate, so that members could see where eeonoriiie3 might be effected. In spite of what, had been said on the . subject in the past-by members of the Government, not-.'.one penny of' expenditure upon the.-High Commissioner's office- was.! being saved. Instead, • ' the Government was poivriri'g .'out money like .watci, in London. Dfefende expenditure'had got out otluuid, and liad run away with this country. The Pfjihinion was. spending <£800.000 upon naval and military defence—it only spent .KSOOjOOO more'on education, arid could not do^' justice to its teachers. There was extravagance and f.normous waste in conniectu/ft with the " Dofenoe Department. Yet the. Government had not'.come dowii with one proposal .to relieve this country ogany defence taxation. lie, pqliticsil lMuence, statin'gf 'enep'it consisted in-members-of- Parliament giving "characters" to those whe,deserved to get them. The' Prime Minister and the Minister, for Hail way's, Mi - . Thomson stated;- had voted, -when in Opposition, for the Electivo Executive. Ho blamed them for not introducing this system now. Instead, they were'setting up boards and commissioners to serve them as bailors. -.

•Gains on to speak about the Government's land policy, 'Mr. Thomson accused the Prime Minister of inconsistency in having denounced the renewable lease and yet sbanding- pledged to maintain nine million , acres of leasehold endowments. When speaking at Winton. lie stated,, the Prime Minister had, '.oonsqiously or unconsciously, misled tho people, and -led tJhein to,believe.that he intended- to'alienate -endowments.. ..Sir Joseph ''Ward -had been, condemned by those who, were now Ministers for. saying in. America:, "Our policy is to out what the people want and then'givo.it to them." He noticed, however, that in his speeches in the South Island some months ago the Minister for . Railways had said, timo after timo: "I am'travelling round to insect the .railways of tho Dominion,' and find out' what tho people want." "Ho did not say," said Mr. Tliomson,' "that he. would give ■ it, because he know-3 that is impossible." Before taking office, the member lor .'Wallace continued, the Prime Minister liad said that the only way to bring down, tho cost of'living was to reduce taxation. Did the Primo Minister believe this now ? NEARLY OVER. MR. WITTY KEEPS DEBATE GOING. Wlhen Mr. Thomson concluded, after speaking for a iull hour, tho Speaker got as far as putting the question as to call for the "Ayes." No one rose on tho Government side, but at the last moment Mr. G. . WITTY (lticc:irto'i) rcse to carry onthe debate. He expressed surprise ai? tho attitude taken up by the Government.' Four ex-Miriistors, ha said, had spoken on fclie Opposition side, a.nd only two Ministers had replied. No one on the Government side had kid the courage to reply'to tho member for Girey. • This was not oreditablo to the 'lion.. gentlemen on tho Government /side.- Were they afraid, or what was wrong ? He inferred that the Government members bad been told to sit tight. Tho Prime Minister: That is not so.

Mr. Witty went on to contend that the prosperity of the country was not duo to tile Government, and that the Government had not brought in .any legislation worth speaking about. In spite of tho ' Bill brought in by 'the Government kst year, less Nativo land was'being placed upon the market than formerly. Political patronage, he nsserted, was more rampant than it had over been. Tho Simpson case, the Garldck case, these were political patronage of tho very worst kind. Mr. Herries: You can't say that with a serious face!

,"Mr. Witty said that the appointment of Captain Northcrott as -Resident Commissioner of tho Cook Islands was an improper, appointment. ' Tho Prime Minister: Why?

Mr. Witty: He had been retired on a pension of -CJOD per annum. I'ko-Prime Minister: And he lost his .■pension! A Government member: It only cost the couutry .CiiOO a year; , Mr. Witty: Nothing of the kind. Ho lias got to have somebody to assist him, and it' costs .£SOO a year or something like that besides. lam not saying anything against tho man. Mr. Mas'sey: Yes, you are! Sundry Accusations, Mr. Witty continued that the Minister for Finance had said in Dunedin that this country was leading a cleaner financial life than its predecessors. Yet two Committees were sitting now to whitewash tho men. who had. nindo tho state, 'meiit. No amount of washing, however, would mako them anything but what they were: Tories, £ind mon who would put their own friends into positions. The Government had got into power by means of' falsehood, invective, innuendo,' preaching niching," and raising sectarian cries. It- wax true that the late Administration had been, undermined—by rats. Present]y tho rats would havo their tails cut oil. .The! Minister for Marino had said that he -would not join a freehold Ministry. After twelve months "at the pigeonholes" the Government had found nothing.. They would not leave office with as- clean, a record as their predecessors. Some'of the casuals at I'etone, he said, had received notico that there would be a reduction,

Mr. Herrie3: No. Mr. Witty: It was recalled. Mr. Bussell: AYas notico ever given? Mr. Witty: I understand it was given. Mr. Ilerries: No, only a reduction of hands. Mr. Witty went on to make a number of accusations against tho Government. Was it a square deal, he asked, to put only men of the right colour on land boards and other local bodies? Mr. Massey: That is not correct. Mr.. Witty said that thousands of men had been iumed off tho co-operative works. Mr. Massey: That is not correct. Mr. Wittj- blamed the Prime Minister and Minister for Finance for coming in a special train from Auckland, when they refused to carry children on the railways free. Was it a square deal, ho continued, that somo of those in the public employ should be told what newspapers they ought to take? Mr. Massey: What is that? Mr. Witty said that ho had repeated his remark twice. The lion, gentleman would see it in "Hansard." He next asked whether it was a square deal that Mr. Jone3 (Reform Party organiser) should have said on the-Coast! that "the tunnel would be stopped." 'He added that Mr. .Tones got .£6OO a year. Mr. Bussell: That is .£550 more than he is worth. Mr. Witty said that the freehold policy of the Government was robbery. Mr. M'Callum: Corruption. Mr. Witty presently said that the Government should take a lesson from the Grey election. Mr. Massey: Hear, hear. Where was the Opposition candidate there? An Alleged Bet. Mr. Witty said that somo gentlemen on the Government side had lost "a good bit of money by that transaction." Mr. "M'Callum: Yes, ±200. Mr. .Campbell: What, a bet? - Mr. M'Callum: Yes. Mr. Witty said that the Prime Minister in 1908 had offered to stay for three months- in order to put tbrmjgh a Local Government Bill. 'All that they were told on this subject in the Budget was that a Bill would be circulated that session. He went on to deal in a similar strain with other aspects of the Government's policy. The Government, he stated, had been" guilty of extravagance in defence expenditure. air. Alien: Name one increase. Mr. Witty: There have been increases all round. Mr. Allen: Name one. Mr. Witty said that school-children had to suffer on account of the extravagant . expenditure lipon. defence. He blamed tho Government for stopping rail-' way construction in' Canterbury, but <said they had not stopped it in the north, where their own people wore. Mr. Leo: They'are going on with Otira! Mr. Witty said that' the Government proposals in regard to the salaries of teachers represented an insult to the teachers. , Mr. Fisher: Who landed them where they are? , ■ Mr. Witty:. You are not landing them out, anyhow.'' ' ANOTHER OPPOSITIONIST. ME. SIDEY ON FINANCE. The Speaker was again calling for the "Ayes" alter Mr. Witty sat down, before another speaker rose. Finally Mr. Mancler (Government) and Mr; Sidey (Opposition) roso simultaneously, anil, as by one consent both of them satuown again; The Speaker called Mr. Siitey (who sits bceklo tho central gangway, whereas Mr. Marnier sits on the extreme right of tho House). Both members expressed a wish to give way. When Mr. Mander retained his seat he was adjured, from, the Opposition benches, to "play fair." Finally Mr. Sidey was left to cany on tho debate. . Mr. T. K. SXDEY (.Dunedin South) said that he was, surprised at the attitudo of Government members. \Mr. Forbes:.They, are scared! Mr. Sidey went on to: state that the Budget, disappointed him. He -.accused Ministers and Government members ot harbouring a spirit of pessimism which the state of the Consolidated l'und did not warrant, ~ ... . Mr. Kussell "(pompously): lliey have inherited a splendid heritage. Mr. Sidey: They have indeed! '■ Mr. Sidey contended that the Govern-ment,-in its financial'administration, was doing exactly tho same tilings as it had blamed its political opponents for when they were in oilice. Mr;Bussell: Hear! hear! Only worse! Mr. Sidey criticised tho table on Page 8 of -the Budget, showing the financial position of the Dominion when the Government took office, and said that, he 'had drawn up » similar table showing the position at March 31, 1013. It. gave: Balance of loan money, <£1,812,303; loan, money to come in, <£1,050,000: total, ,£2,852,308. Liabilities totalled_-E2,524,322, leaving a credit btilance of <£'327,626. The liabilities did not include <1'325,800, tho amount of tho Midland llailway commitmertt, written off during the. year. This table certainly showed a much larger amount in hand than the one in the Budget, but this was not surprising, in view of tho fact.that tho Government had borrowed during the year something like six millions. Was it any. credit to the Government, when settlers wore crying out for money, to have some .£650,0u0 in tho Advances to, Settlers Account which had not been loaned out? Mr. Sidey twitted the Government with borrowing huge sums. He' did not think, he said, that .the House would object to tho Government raising the amount, of loan money proposed. The Opposition criticism of tho Government's borrowing was based upon a contention that the Government was now doing exactly what it

had formerly criticised its opponents for doing. The same remark applied to Opposition criticisms 'of the Government's expenditure. In ■ his closing remarks, Mr. Sidey predicted that the time would come when, the occupants of the Opposition benches would formulate a policy. REFORMERS, NOT TORIES. BANK OF NEW ZEALAND CONTROVERSY. Mr. P. MANDER (Marsden) said ho thought tho .Government lad dono a very . good thing in appointing Public Servioe Commissioners, in order V) destroy political influence in tho Service.' It , would 110 longer bo possible for members 'of Parliament to pull tho political strings to get young people appointed to the Civil Service over the heads of othera more deserving. This had been done in the past. "I am speaking by tho book when I' say this," he said, "because I have done it myself. And when my own influence was not good enough, ■ I had gone to a Government supporter, who was a, friend of mine, and succeeded that way." Among other good reforms tho Government was to introduco legislation for electoral reform.

Mr. Russell: For this House? Mr. Mandor: Yes. Mr. Russell: This session? Mr. Massev: Yes. Mr. Russell: What is tho reform? No reply was forthcoming, and Mr. Russell said, "You talked it, over at tho caucus 011 Saturday, didn't yon?" Mr. Mander assured Mr. Russell that tile .Opposition would find that the.legislation proposed was such that they would havo to support it. He defended the Government from the old reproach that tiiey hail ever been opposed to tho old' ago pensions scheme. Ho also thought the Government had not bran friendly to the Largo land-owners, bait had'simply refused-to be unjust to men who had- been good settlers in this try in its euitiei' days. It would bo unfiair to put oil . the large laind-owners a buinstinsj-up' tax, when thley could not nil get rid of their land at once. The Government 'had done the proper thins in imposing such a tax as would jjivc tho large holders due notice that, their lamb were required for do'-KtT .settlement. Another reason for refraining from putting on a oruel. tax was. that ninieh of the land• held in large.blocks was not fit for close settlement..- Ho approved of tho Government's pension _ proposals, and hi? mentioned as one which would bo welcomed, tho reciprocity arrangement with Australia.. ■ Mr. Witty: It will new bo carried out.. L Mr. Marnier: It is the intention at Witty: You know the road that i« navrd with ?<>od intentions? Mr. Mansey: That's the rciid the honourable gentleman is going! Mr. Marnier numbered in aM 2-1 reforms premised by 'the Government before they took office, and of these 1G had .bean alreadv .put into effect. In the face of this was it possible to pay that the Gor- , wcia old yi&t wot,

wero rdfcrogresaivo? If the Opposition. i did so, the people in the country, who M-oro quite capable of judging of the truth of it for themselves, wouM sinrply ■laiigli at them. It would be impossible for a Tory Government to hold office inthis country, lior did ho think Tory i members could over bo returned under our universal franc'lii.-*'. "What," ho at-ked., "is keeping the moderate Liberalminded men apart in this House? Is it the interests of party or the interests of the country? I venture to say, Mr. Speaker,' that it is not the latter." Ho urged us the best system lev getting rid of the perpstual party war the election of the Executive by members of the House. The moderates would then bo united, and the extremists on. either sido would have to fornl parties of their own. Referring to the problem of liayaldefEiira he was opposed to the idea of New Zealand attempting to establish a local navy, and he did not think the Government would bring clown any proposal of the kind. A littlo count it like New Zealand could not afford to keep up a navy adequate to defend its shores, and he believed we must, for many years to come, rely on the Imperial Navy for our protection. "It is an unfair thing," ho said, speaking of the Bank of New Zealand, "for the Government to force their way into the Bank of New Zealand and demand a larger interest than they are entitled to by the number of shares they own. If the Bank of New Zealand are ready to pay off the million guarantee the bank should be allowed to do it,.and the Government should not refuso to accept that money and, demand four directors against two on the other side. If tho Government want the Bank of New Zealand, let them buy it out altogether. I don't thinjc the prosperity of the bank since the Government went into it is altogether 011 account of the Government management." Ho argued that the Government had -been paid for all it had done for the bank. Mr. Ell: "What about the risks the taxpayers ran ? ' . Mr. Mander: They ran a lot of Tisk! Mr. Witty: They did at the time. MR. ISITT AND THE BREWERS. THE COOK ISLANDS.' Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) referred to an earlier period in the debatei when the member for Napier had quoted the share-list of The Dominion. The member for Matauva (who spoke next in the debate) had, aujnitted, air. lsitt stated, tlittt the Eeforni party was associated with-.the large land-owners of the Dominion. Following upon this, however, the member for Mataura had sought to establish that the "Now Zealand Times" was connected with the brewers as The Dominion was associated'with tho largo landholders. He was prepared to admit that the share-list of the "Neve. Zealand Times" contained a disproportionate* number of brewers, but did the member for Mataura or anybody else contend that the "New Zealand Times" was identified in the same way with tho brewing industry as The Dominion, was with the large landholders? . Mr. Anderson: Yes. Mr. Isitt: Then, sir, if he talks in that 'way he does not know what 110 is talking about. No one could get. away from the fact that'the brewers helped both parties. {No.) They were utterly regards less of-political parties. He could give any 'number of brewers and wine and spirit merchants in the Dominion who lire enthusiastic supporters of the Reform party. The brewers were , not identified with Liberalism as against Conservatism; as tho Conservatives were supported by the land monopolists. He went on' to remark that-if a man stopped out of a party .until he could find one that contained 110 brewers lie would stop out for '' a- very - long time. "The whole, force, of tho brewing industry wins against mo in the last election," • declared Mr. Isitt. It ,was simply. id'lo for the member for Mataura or anyone to protend that tho brewers were identified with either the Liberals or the Couir sorvatives as the land monopolists were identified everywhere with tho 'party that na.id: "We are not Conservatories;• are Liberals ami Reformers.' " 'Tiro Brimc Minister: The biggest landowner in Parliament is .your J.eader! Mr. Isitt: It is the exception that proves the rule! (Laughter.) And- if you a.ro referring to my friend and ineimW for Avon he is mo doubt quite prepared to chan&e his landed area' with Mr. Hunter or Sir Walter Buchanan, and I mi not sure that he wwudd not swop with the Prime Minister himeelf. Oppositionists: Hot, hear. . : Referring to what Mr. Escott had saadl about tho presomt administration of the Oopk Islands, Sir. Isitt said that lie had information from a millibar of people on tho islands which, if it were carrect, showed that there -was ho justification for tho fulsome oompliroeiiits filtered by tllio' member for Pahiatua. Mr. Isitt asked whether it was a fact that until Mr. Northcroft.readied the islands the administration was in charge of ail official who • hod been. Associated with a policeman in a matter that was not to his credit, and amounted to practically compounding a felony. He was informal that, but for the action of the captain of the steamer who conveyed tho man in question to French territory, the matter 'would not have been report™! to the Government. ■ He did not wish to tniognify tho iiwvfctetr, but this did not seem to have been a ; proper official to leave in charge of tho islands. If eucli action had been taken by the Ward A<l- - it would have been severely criticised. . . ~ Mr. Isitt went on to criticise generally the appointment of Mr. Northcroft, and drew attention to the fact that he had fallen out with Servant Holmes, ju charge of tho Native police. . Did the Minister know of Sergeant nolmos's resignation until Sergeant Holmes arrived in AVellington? There was 110 answer, Jin'd a member remarked .twice: "Silence." Dr Pomare: I will reply in-time. . Mr. Isitt said the position of Sergeant Holmes on tho islands was a most important one, seeing that his • duty would be to suppress tho bush-beer drinking that was tho scourge of the Islands. Certainly it was not a. position for a man who had failed to make good' in the New Zealand police. He would like to ask the Government to ask Dr. Pomare whether ho dared to say that the man appointed was a satisfactory man for his position? What was his record in tho force? Why was he last suspended from the force? And, why did he resign? If these questions could bo satisfactorily answered, then he would like to ask Dr. Pomare whether it was not a fact that lie did not know of tho appointment until after it had been made? He was informed, ho continued, that tash-beer drinking was still a rampant evil on tho islands, and he was also informed' that on a recent Sunday, in the village of Aorangi, nearly' every male inhabitant was drunk. . Keaumins after the supper adjournment, Mr. Isitt said he hoped Ills speech would not bo taken as an attack on Mr. Northoroft, in whoso integrity he had the utmost confidence. He repeated, however, his question, Why the man appointed to succeed Sergeant Holmes was to appointed without reference to Dr. l'omare, tho Minister in charge of the islands? And his reason for asking this question was beoa,use ho was quite sure that it was a very bad appointment Dismissing ths Budget generally he said it was so non-committal that there was very little in it to criticise. He accused the Minister for Finance of having juggled with figures in. some of his tables in the Budget, and with having been none too careful in having sought to puit the most favourable possible construction on things to suit his Government. The ad-je-tive he would apply to the Budget would be "cowardly.' He condemned the Government for having failed to bring in the reforms they had promised. ■ "I never saw a cleverer bit of sidestepping in my life,' said Mr. Isitt, speaking of Mr. Masses reply to the deputation which waited upon linn on the B'ble-in-scliools- question. "He never answered the deputation at all, and

thev all wont away thinking he had. Mr. Massey, he continued, had said emphatically "that he was in favour of'the secular system, but had carefully avoided all mention of whether he was in favour of tho referendum or not MR. J. PAYNE'S PLEDGES. . ONE' IN WRITING. 1 Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) replied to some, remarks about the Grey Lynn election which had been made, earlier in the debate, by Mr. Anderson, member for Mataura. ' He denied that he had been pledged in any way to the Reform party. Ho stated that, the Premier, after the election, sent for him and spoke to liini in the stria of a joung maidwi to her

departing lover: "If you don't marry mo I'll throw myself over tho end of tho wharf." (Laughter.) Mr. Payne continued that the Prime Minister's exact words oil that occasion were: "I want to know, Payne, you are making mo look such a fool." Mr. Massey: Do you remember your written pledge to me? Mr. Payne: Have you got a written pledge from me? , ■ Mr. Massey: 1 have. Ho promised to produce it on the morrow. Mr. I'avne asked whether the pledge bad been' obtained at the meeting which lie had mentioned. He next asked: "Had vou anv right to have a pledge from me?' ' Mr. Massev: You sent it to me. Mr. Payne: I can't tell you what ~I think about vou in the House. He went oil to deal with his own platform and to criticise the policy of tlie Government. Advocating the institution of the initiative and tho referendum and- the recall (of representatives), he stated that he was the onlv member of the House who was subject 'to recall by his constituents. Ilis resignation was'in the hands of his committee at Grey Lynn, and couid be sent in if lie failed to keep any of his pledges. The debate was adjourned, on the motion of Mr. A. Harris, and the House roso ait 11.25 p.m. -