WESTPORT INQUIRY.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1828, 14 August 1913, Page 9

WESTPORT INQUIRY.

SOME WARM INTERCHANGES. MINISTER ON OATH. EXAMINATION OF MR. ATMORE ANOTHER "CONVICTION." Tho Parliamentary Committee appointed to inquire into the charges made against tho Minister for Marine (the. Hon. F. M. B. Fisher) concerning the appointment of Mr. W. 1?. Simpson to the Westport Harbour Board resumed its sittings yesterday. Mr. E. P. Lee presided. Mr. M. Myers appeared as counsel for Mr. W. K. Simpson. When the Committee rose the preceding day a motion was under consideration that the two Justices of the Peace and tho constable at Karamea, who were mentioned in the course of Simpson's evidence, should be culled as witnesses. Tnis motion was discussed yesterday in committee. After discussion ' the motion, which was moved by Mr. Atmore, was withdrawn. THE MINISTER'S EVIDENCE. , UNAWARE OF THE CONVICTIONS. The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher, in evidence, admitted having said in the House that he was not aware of the convictions against Simpson when he made the appointment, ami that if the convictions were as alleged he did not think he was a proper man for the position. But, he said, his opinions had been somewhat modified owing to the nature of the charges, and the circumstances. It had come upon him us something of a shock to hear of tho convictions, and his astonishment had led to- his making the statement in the House. Now he thought Simpson was a perfectly proper person to be appointed, and a properly qualified person to sit on the board.

Mr.-Atmore: Do you consider he should stay on the board?

Mr. Fisher: That is a matter for his own judgment, lie is on, and 1 cau't'put him off. Mr. Fisher added that he would not advise the Government, to introduce special legislation to put him off in view of tho petitions and resolutions of local bodies in the district in Simpson's favour. ' Mr. Atmore: Are not the convictions as stated bv inc.r

Mr. Fisher: The convictions arc there, but I think they are modified bv evidence before this Committee. . Circumstances, he said, might alter the weight of conviotions very considerably; and he had received copies of resolutions passed by local bodies all over the West Coast expressing satisfaction witli Simpson's appointment.

Mr. Atmore: Do you think he 'was wrongfully convicted? Mr. Fisher: I am not prepared to express an opinion on the point because I have not heard both sides of the case.

Mr. Atmore: What inquiries did vou make before you made the appointment? Mr. Fisher said that it so happened that the day lie arrived at Karamea was the day on which Mr. Simpson was returned unopposed to.the County, Council for Ivaramea. Simpson was then recommended to him as a fit man for the position, and he had seemed a young, energetic, capable man. He (Mr. Fisher) had made no police inquiries. That. never had, been done in selecting men tor harbour boards or other public offices, and it never would be done.

Mr. Atmore: Don't you think that in apjiointing a man to an important public position, considering the onus of proof that lie is fit for the position is cast on tho .Minister and not on the Department, you should have made more inquiries? , Mr, Fisher: No. '-About Police Records. Mr. Atmore: Don't yoii think that if you had made inquiries you would have loulid out about the convictions? " Mr. Fisher said he would not search police records of prospective appointees to public positions. There were people, who, if their police records were known, would not be in Parliament.

Mr. Atmore: Perhaps so. There may be peoplo with South African experience who would not be in Parliament, either. Mr. Lee objected that all this was out of order. Mr. Fisher lirged that Mr. Atmoro should be allowed to put any questions lie chose, and to clear up the allegation that he (Mr. Fisher) had done something wrong in South Africa. The matter was not pursued further at this stage, however. •'

Mr. Fisher said lie was not going to ask Simpson, to resign, or to recommend tile Government to pass special legislation to remove him.

Mr: Atmore: Do you think he is a lit person to represent the Keform'Government on the Westport Harbour Board? Mr. "Fisher said Simpson did not represent the Keform Government, but tho people of New Zealand. The two men appointed were not political appointees in any sense of the word. "Do you suggest,'' he asked, "that at the time I appointed him 1 know he had these convictions?"

Mr. Atmore: I say I don't know whether you knew or not. If you say you don't know, I am prepared' to accept your word.

Mr. Fisher said it was impossible to say whether a man should be disqualified by convictions alone. Was there n difference, for instance, between Mr. Atmore's (jonviction and Simjison's, if it was only a matter of convictions?

Mr. Atmore said he hoped Mr. Fisher would bring out all he knew about his (Mr. Atmore's; political past, and he would tell the Co mm it too why, the Minister was not. known as Captain Fisher.'

Mr. Fisher went on with his evidence. He repeated that lie did not'know anything, about tire convictionswhen ho appointed Simpson.

Mr. Atmore: You won't say that'you could have known?

Mr. Fisher said he 'would not say anything of the sort. He had interviewed several people at Karamea about Simpson, and not one of them had said any-* thing about them. Probably they were not people who were accustomed to delving into Police Court records. He would never ask for the police record of any man before appointing liim' to a. public position. He did hot agree that a conviction recorded should be sufficient to debar a man from appointment in the Public Service. Any number of men in the Public Service now had convictions recorded against them. Convictions Need Not Disqualify. To Mr. Bradney: He did not think a man with a record like Simpson's need necessarily be debarred from a public office. His opinion of tho convictions had been very considerably modified by tho evidence ho had heard. Simpson's case was very different from that of a limn who had served a term of imprisonment for burglary. He did not hold that the appointment was a disgrace to tlie Government. "If 1 had known of these convictions against Simpson," lie said, "I would not havo appointed him, but in view of tho evidence of the people in the district subsequently, I don't know; that I would not. have treated Simpson unfairly in refusing to appoint him." To Mr. Isitt: He was compelled to attach some importance to the petition of the local people, and to resolution* of local bodies on the Wtst Coast, _ even distant from Karamea, sympathising with Simpson. It was impossible to suppose that these resolutions and petitions were all the result of pressure. He did not crec that n conviction against a man sfiould hold him down and disqualify him from public life for all time, whatever the nature of the conviction. Nominations in the Past. To Mr. Colvin: Kniamta. had a tiotl, by which il. coukl trails direct with Welli'r.ijlon, but it was a matter of opinion whuther other parts of tho district trading through Westport had not a bettor right to be represented nil tho Wesport Harbour Board. As member for the district. Mr. Cslvin had not made a recommendation; if ho had it would have been considered. :Mr. Colvin: You never asked me. ■ Mr. Fisher: I thought you would send in vour nominations as you did Wore. llr. Colvin'i I was always asked.

Mr. Fisher: .There is no rccoril of your having been asked, but there is a record of your liaviuy; nominated the whole board, lie u<Ulc*d that he did not know that the Keform League in Westport had nominated two members lor election to the board, or that tho two men were Messrs. Munro and Gillen. lie had never heard t;luit Mr. Munro was chairman of tho lieform League in Westport. lie could not say who first recommended Simpson, because. all the recommendations wore verba 1 !. The first heard of Simpson was at Little Wanganui. Mr. lMunro had never recommended Simpson. Why Change was Necessary. 'i'o Mr. Stathani: lie had never heard a word against. Simpson's character, althougn he madte inquiries from representative people on.this point. It was not the custom to get a police report concerning (i man to Ire appointed to a public position. He had lollowed the usual course. He knew nothing of the convictions against Simpson; if ho had known he •would .prolxiuly have looked out for another man witin a oltan sheet and appointed him. 'Mr. Atmore had never mentioned anything about the charges before mentioning them in the House, and even yet he lmu never had a single protest irom tho West Ccnst, by letter or otliea-wise, against the appointment. He felt that he was justified in removing two members from tliie board. When he rotiinied irom Australia the business of the board was at a deadlock. The boaixl had met twice, and on each occasion one half of tho board had walked out and left the other half without a quorum. To Mr. Scott: Ho lmd never heard of any objection being raised on behalf of other parts of tho Butler district against the appointment of a Karamea nfan to tho board. To Mr. Lee: It was -not a fact that lie had nominated Simpson and Gillon in order t.hat Mr. Munro might be elected chairman. Tho board (had met before the appointments were made, and if members could have agreed they would have elected a chairman. Press comments ill both papers in tile Buller district hod been quite favourable to the appointments. Certainly t'liey had not been adverse. Ho would be very glad to put the reports before the committee. To Mr. Bradney: He did not think that the recommendations of a member for tho district should take precedence over all other nominations, because that would lead to political boards everywhere. To Mr. Atmore: It had never been suggested to him, and it had noveir been contemplated by him, that he should' contest the BuJier seat at tho next election.

A Personal Question. Mr. Atmore: I am going to ask tou a personal question. l)id you make a suggestion that there was anything in my past that should dJeLar mo irom election to Parliament?. Mr. Fisher: No, I didn't. I knew you had a conviction. That's all: Mr. Atmore: Are you aware what it Mr. Fisher: Not exactly. I (hink it was something about signing an electoral form. Mr. Atmore: Do you know the circumstances? Mr. Fisher: No. Mr. Atmore: Do you know what the lino was? Do you know that it was only a -shilling? He went on to explain that lie had witnessed tho signature of a daughter signing for her mother, an old woman who could not do it for, herscli, and that his opponent at the election had held bock the matter for three months un'til just on tho eve of the election. Mr. Atmore asked finally: "Did you ever have any convictions against you in South Africa?". Mr. Fisher: I have never had a conviction of any kind in my life. Mr. Isitt, protested .that this mallei' should not be opened rip. Mr. l/oo said that he did not think any further pursuance of tho subject would serve any useful purpose, and he asked thai: the matter be nllowed to drop. Mr. Atmore: If I had been had up before a military court Mr. Lee: I will, rule this matter out of order. Mr. Atmore: Very well. Mr. Fisher insisted oil making some statement in reply to Mr'. Atmore's final insinuation. Mr. FMhcr said that: in tho whole course of his career, civil or military, he had never had' any charges made against him in any tribunal of any kind. He had never had any charge •made against him in .South Africa, nor had he over been befqro a military board there. Mr. Atmore: Have you the right to wear a military uniform here?

Mr. Fisher: I have. Mr. Atmore:-Have yon the right to the title of captain? Mr. Fisher: I have . . . I>nt J have dropped it'over since I came back from South Africa.

MR. ATMORE. OPINIONS AND EVIDENCE. Mr. Atmore was then sworn, and lie proceeded to niako a statement: "1 believe," ho said, "that when a Government nominee is placed on any public body that 'the public have a right to expect that the man shall have a clean record, and I submit that the record.of convictions put in by the Justice Department clearly 1 '" establishes tho fact that tho man Simpson, representing the alleged Reform Cabinet on the Westport Harbour Board, had not a clean record." Mr. Statham here raised a point of order—that Mr. Atmore w-as not giving evidence, but stating opinions. Mr. Lee upheld the point, and Mr. Atmore was examined as the other witnesses had been. Common Knowledge. Mr. Fisher examined Mr. Atmore on tho statement made by him that Simpson's convictions were "common knowledge." Where, ho asked, did Mr. Atmore get this common'knowledge irom? Mr. Atmore: I got tlie information about the license first from Motueka. Mr. Fisher: From some person in Motueka ? Mr. Atmore: Yes. Mr. Fisher: Who was it? • Mr. Atmore: That isn't necessary, is it? Mr. Fisher: All right. When did you get the information? Mr. Atmore: I knew of the license being objected to, and three .Nelson lawyers being employed at the time it happened before the Licensing Committee. He explained, however, that ho did not know of tho convictions in Karamea and Westport at that time. He thought ilie had got the information, from paper reports of the proceedings Ixforo the Licensing Committee. ■ Mr. Fisher: Will you swear there was a report in the Nelson papers of the proceedings? Mr.' Atmore: I think so. •.

Mr. Fisher: You have no distinct recollection of seeing it in the papers?—because I have been unable to find it. Mr. Atmore: I would not swear that I have, but I reckon I have. Mr. Fisher: You say those convictions were a matter of common knowledge? Mr. Atmore: I say it is a matter of common knowledge on tho Coast. Mr. Fisher: Did it occur to you that you should adviso me as to his character? Mr. Atmoro: No. Mr. Fisher: When did it occur to you that you should bring it up? Mr. Atmore: Two or three days before I did so. Mr. Fisher: How was that? Mr. Atmore: Because it was brought homo to me that this was tho same Simpson who was refused his license. Mr. Fisher: Who brought it home to you ? | Mr. Atmoro: That is not nccessary.

Mr. Fisher: It didn't ocour to you to bring this matter before tho Minister? Mr. Atmore: I didn't know he was appointed. As soon as I knew, I thought it was time to make a protest. Mr. Fisher: Was it brought under your notioe in Wellington? Mr. Atmore: It was brought, under my notice in Nelson. Mr. Fisher: Yon won t tell us who it was that brought it under your notice? Mr. Atmore: No, I don't consider it is a vital point. Another Statement. To Mr. llradne.v: He accepted) the Minister's statement now that he did not know of Simpson's convictions when he made the appointment. At the time he spoke in the Uouso he did not know whether tho Minister knew nr did not know of the convictions, and he had left ■the matter open. Mr. Bradney: How do you reconcile that statement, with your statement to me iu the House that the Minister did know? Mr. Atmore: t didn't, make that statement. Mr. Bradney: You made the statement to me in the House on the left of the Sneaker ona night,

Mr. Atmore: I never made the statement to yon or to anybody else. Ignorance No Excuso. To Mr. Statham: His object; in making llio statement nils .not to damage Simpson. Jle would have been well satislied it' the (jovernnient had retrieved their errors and removed him from the board. To .Mr. Leo: He must accept the Minister's statement that at the time the appointment was made he knew nothing ot the convictions, but he (Mr. Atmore) held that the Minister should have known, and that he was equally culpablo tor his lack of knowledge. It was really immaterial whether the Minister knew or not; the offence was that a man with these convictions had been appointed, lie know of no objections on the Coast to Simpson's appointment to the board, but lie was not in close touch with the district. Tf he had known all the facts as he knew them now lie would still have made tho same statement in the Ilouse. Questions About "Disguest."

Mr. Myers, as counsel for Mr. AY. 1!. Simpson, -next examined Mr. Atmore. 110 asked Mr. Atmore whether lie spoke in the House because of the convictions, or because the appointment lfad occasioned disgust wherever knowledge of the facts had reached.

Mr. Atmore: 1 stated that tho Reform Government had been blatantly asserting that they never made improper appointments or appointments ot improper men, and tho matter of Simpson's conviotions occurred to me, and 1 g(ivo it as a reply to their .unceasing statements. Mr. Myers: You mado this statement of fact, that tho appointment had occasioned disgust wherever the knowledge of it had reached ? Where had it occasioned disgust—of your own knowledge? Mr. Atmore: I have had hundreds and hundreds of congratulations sinco it has been exposed.

Mr. Myers: That is not an answer to my question. ... I repeat tho question. . . . Will you pleaso tell mo where, of your knowledge, at tho time you made that statement of fact, this appointment had occasioned disgust?

Mr. Atmore: Didn't, it disgust you when you heard it ? <'

Mr. Myers: Tlmt is not an answer to my question. And you must not crosscxaniine me. . . . You made a statement of fact, and I want to know what jour justification was.

Mr. At more: My knowledge of human nature.

Mr. Mver9: Where, of your knowledge, did this appointment occasion disgust? , •

Mr. Atraore: I take the people who tell me about it. I have been congratulated by hundreds for exposing it. Mr. Myers: That is since. How many peoplo gavo you the information? Mr. Atmore-. That is quite immaterial. Mr. Myers repeated his question, and Mr. Atmoro was directed to answer it. Mr. Atmore: I don't know liow many. Mr. Myers: How many people had told you up till the time you mado this state-ment-in the House? Mr. Atmore: Several. Mr. Myers: Can you say how many? Mr.-Atmore: Several. Mr. Myers: About how many? Were there two or three, or how many? Mr. Atmore: Several. , - Mr. Myers: Is that the best answer you can give? Mr. Atmore: That is the only answer I intend to give you. Mr. M.vers: Then you will decline to give me a better answer than "several"? T asl> you whether two or more people told you, and you decline to say more than "several." Mr. Atmore: Yes. "Vindictiveness," Mr. Myers: Do you decline to say who these p'copie are? Mr. Atmore: I do, because there is such a lot of vindictiveness about that it would not pay the people. T'hcre is such a lot of pressure being brought through politics since the present Uovernment eame into power that it would not bo safe. Mr. Myers: Isn't that what Mr. Simpson is complaining about—vindictiveness? Mr. Atmore: I never heard him complnin of vindictiveness. lie complained of conspiracy. ■: ~ - > Mr. Myers: Did you not yourself say in answering Mr. Simpson that Mr. Simpson's suggestion of conspiracy was absurd? _ , ' Mr. Atmore: Yes. Mr. Myers: Very well. Now, I want to ask you will you decline to tell- me who gave you the information on which you spoke in the House? Mr. Atmore: I do. Mr. Myers: Will you tell me whether the information was given orally or in writing? Mr. Atmore: Orally. Mr. Myers: Will you bo prepared to tell me tho address of the person, who told you? Mr. Atmore: Don't ask foolish questions. Mr. Myers: Will you tell me in what town or place the person who gavo von the information lives? Mr. Atmore: I will give you nothing that tends to identify tho person, because it would not 'bo fair. After further questioning, he stated—lt did not come from ICaramoa. Made No Inquiries.. Mr. Mvers: How can you say that? Mr. AtniOTi?: Because 1. know tho person well. , Mr. Myers: And yet you will giro us no information from ivhitfh to trace tho source of the information? Mr. Atmore: No. Mir. Myers: And yet you pledged your word to a statement of faot that this appointment of Mr. Simpson occasioned disgust wherever it was known? Mr. Atmore replied that ho had spoken of faots. Mr, Myers: Havo yon had any communication from people in the lvwramea district expressing disgust? Mr. Atmore: 1 have already said tliat my information did not come from Ivarnmea. Ho added that lie had made no inquiries in the Kuramea district Hoarding the reputation of Mr. Simpson with the peoplo of his own district. Mr. Myers: Does it not occur to you that the'best test of whether people are disgusted or not is to ascertain, tine, views of the people in the district wiiwe tho man lives . " Mr. Atmore: I can't see liow that a (foots the question at all. Mr. Myers: Who know him, and know the circumstances under which lue was convicted ? Mr. Atmore: That doeih't affect the question in my opinion. The convictions stand. This concluded the hearing of evidence. The committee sat in cnincra to deliberate later in the afternoon.