PUBLIC TRUST OFFICE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1827, 13 August 1913, Page 8

PUBLIC TRUST OFFICE.

REPLIES TO OPPOSITION CRITICS. THE NEW BILL. The Hoii. A. L. HIiRDiIAN moved the second reading c-i' tuo Public Trust (Jttice Amendment Bill. fie coiiiuiejidi'd the Uilil v> tlie House with <i gieat deal ol' pleasure, lis said, l'eehiig cena.ni that the uneiidments in tlie law would mid largely bo: tlit* usefulness of the Public Uruat Office, flame of the changes in the law ivere the outcome of the recent Commission, and partly the.y wore copies of certain'provisions in the English Act, which were found to work very well. Before joiiig on to speak.of the Bill, lis wisiied nrst of all to euy how it came about that i Commission was set up. had tieou making wild statements regarding ;lie investigatioji. that had taken place, iiul without any foundation at all untruthful observations had been circulated ibout that Commission, it having btoh suggested that tho legal profession in New iealaud, and that he in particular, appointed the Commission for the purpose jf bringing about -tho downfall of the Public Trust Office. No wilder, more ridiculous, sillier statements could liayo [icon made by un.y critics. The Commission was t'et up at the request and upon tho suggestion of Opposition members of the House. It would be remembered that the Commission set up by the Mackenzie jovernineut, to inquire into tho Public Service, had made some references in its •eport to the business methods of the Public Trust l Office. When that report ivas under consideration, a number o-f »entleme.Ti on the other side of tlie House lad expressed the opinion that this critic.sm. of the Public Trust Office should be 'ully , investigated and reported upon. Following tlio request made by thft=o licnnirable geu.tlouie.n, : and giving effect to. :ho, promise ho had made when the quesion was under consideration, n Commission was set up. And no two better men :ould have been found to perform the task ;han Messrs. Hosking and Macintosh —the >n<* a barrister of tho highest standing mil tho other a business man of experience. Tho BiOl was the of the inquiry conducted by those gentlemen, Mid the result of the observation • by tho Public Trustee of the working of the Pu liiae. Trust Office Act in England.' If ilici 1 Bill became law it would make the Public Trust Office much- more efficient than/it was to-da.v. Work would bo done more expeditiously, and greater protection would be given to those carrying an business with the Public Trustee, and generally the business of 'the office would managed roundly and well. Primarily the office existed to administer trusts ;afelv and with a minimum of expenses t-i beneficiaries. Wild statements had been made about the recent commission. The fact was (that their .report was of great ability, and of great usefulness. It showed that a complete investigation bad licen made into the- affairs of the Public Trust Office, and that tho officers had. emerged from it with flying ■ colours, and ivitli credit. A clause in the Bill nrovided that an addition should bo made to the Public I'rust- Board, of two business men,' one having "knowledge of country affairs, nnd ma with business exn'erience' in a city, l'lie functions of the Public. Trustee w6re ?o numerous and were increasing so rapidly, that he needed the assistance of. nen of business experience to advise him iu the administration of some of the jrnstfl in liis care. Provision was made rtso for the appointment of an advisory trustee to act' with 1 lie Public Trustee n certain cases; Mr. Herdnian traversed the provisions of the Bill, and explained ivhat would be the of 'Hiem. AH the new sections were designed, lie said, to obviate delays in administration, and n avoid expense to those doing business ivith the office. Mr. Nijata's Suspicions. The Hon. A. T. NGATA (Eastern Maori) said the honourable the Minister ivas to be congratulated on having introduced the Bill, but the Government was not to be congratulated oil its action in refusing to take 'the Iluuse into its conidenco as to the evidence, upon which tho_ ;'eccnt commission had based its findings. Ho suggested that tlie evidence ought to »a-laid; before a committee of tlie House Ijeforj) ..'tlu;. Bill was. advanced another stage.' There.was an impression that the government was not quito candid in regard to the Public Trust Office, and as i.!ie Public Trustee's report was not yet ijei'ore the House members had no means }f knowing whether that gentleman was jr was jiol: in conflict with the Minister's [iroposp.ls in the Bill. Mr. Herdman: The Public Trustee entirely ..approves of evory provision contained in tho' Hill. -.Mr. Ngata (accepted this assurance, rind proceeded to'aniplify the Minister's statement that the Public Trust Office had emerged from the recent inquiry by tlie 3ommis?ioners with (lying colours. He ivislicd to know what the Government intended to do witli regard to the recommendations uf the commission as to the ulministratiou of the AVest Coast Native itsstvos, and other Native reserves. It ivas even rimioured that the Cabinet was not quite a happy family on the matter if . West Coast Native'leases. Mr. Ma.st.ey: Your rumour is wrong. lis usual. Mr. Ngnla. saiil he could not sco how the member for Western Maori could continuo to associate himself with a party which,had nl-ways stood for Ihe policy of sriving to lessees tlio freehold of their holdings, in ml with a Government which, it was said, was likely to bring down a liill this year to grant'.the freehold of their holdings to tho present lessees of flip West Coast Native reserves. There was a miggestion also that some clauses in the Bill, and some paragraphs in the renort of tho commission, were aimed at reducing tho activities of _ Mm Public' Trust 1 Office, and to do this in the interests of the legal profession, members of which were known to be hostile to the office. Good In Parts. Mr. T. JI. WILPOR.D (Ilutt) said that tho Bill was in many respects u good one. He 'complimented tho Attorney-General upon Clause 15, providing for the protection of mortgages held by tho Public. Trustee, and also upon the provision for tho inexpensive administration of small estates. Home -'portions of the Bill, however, were more open.to criticism, nnd as a whole it was of such a complex character that it should, have been sent ill the lirsfc i.iaco to the Statutes Revision Committee. Mr. Wilford went on to remark that the House would do. well _ to waicli. carefully ,any legislation, dealing with State institutions, introduced by the Attorney-General. Tlio honourable gentleman did not easily change his mind. Ho (Mr. Herdman) was consistent, and had expressed the opinion that State control was Hie worst possible form of control. The Attorney-'.! 3ner.il had also stated that the Arbitration Act had done

'■.•calculable harm ami that no great harm would be done if it were repealed. Mr. Wilfunl went on lo elaborate a con-\ tentien tli.it, although 'iiio Public Trust Office was known as the cemetery of the k'gal pwfeision, same clauses of the Bill before tlio Ilouse'wouhi ultimately benefit the members of that prole-iiou. He con'temled that excessive powers were cmii'erred, i>y the Hill, upon advisory trustees, as against the I'ulilie Trustee. These powers, lie contended, would enable (he, advisory trustee.* to. force the Public Trustee into expensive litigation. This would make work for 'elm legal profession. Clause 11, providing that a private estate 'might bo investigated and audited by the Public Trustee upon (lie application of a beneficiary, would lead to litigation iu tlio Supreme Court in a degree impossible to imagine. Solicitors proverbially were bad accountants. Mr. Jjuick: Tliey are bad politicians! Mr. Wilford: The honourable gen-tle--1 man's remark needs no answer, as usual, lie contended I hat the investigation proposed should be carried out by an accountant". He enumerated other clauses of the Bill,.which, in his opinion, would make work for lawyers. 'J'he Public Trust Office, lie continued, was understaffed, underpaid, and over-worked. Haying this last session he had been met with a howl of derision from members 011 tlio other side of the House, but the Public Trust Commission bad borne out his contention. Tlio 31 mister had given nu indication as to whether or not he intended to give effect to the recommendation of the commission that a Native Trustee should be appointed. Mr. Wili'ord al s o complained that the Minister had withheld the annual report of the Public Trusiee, which would presumably deal exhaustively with the report of the Public Trust Commission. The report .should have been tabled before this Bill was introduced. A Delayed Report. Mr. W. D. S. .UACDONALD (Bay of Plenty) said that it seamed rather peculiar vliat a report from tlio PubSc Trustee, which would be of great value to ©very member of the Mouse ill discussing tins Bill, was not accessible. Although they had the assurance of ths Minister that the 'Public Trustee was entirely in accord with every clause of this Bill, still there was a certain amount of unrest in the minds of members oil that sidia of the Houss, and a fee-ling that something-was being withheld, liven at this stage they would be glad ii the Bill were, referred to a committee in order that its further progress mighi be. stayc-d until the report tiad been received. After dealing with some features of the report of the Public Trust Commission, Mr. Macdonald criticised the degjartd intention of the Minister to read oiily extracts from the evidence givtin before tho Commission. Much of the evidence was not confidential-, anil should be laid before the House. Ife hoped that the Public Trustee's rejiort wound be brought down before the 13iil passed through its final A Double-Barrelled Protest. Mr. E. M'CALLUM (Wairau) pro-tested against the refusal of the Minister to refer the Bill to the Statutes Revision Committee, a ml his further refusal to reposo confidence in the members of the House. Tho Bill undoubtedly gave facilities for the expenditure of money on legal work. It had certainly opened the flocd-gates in this direction. He saw no objection to money being squandered in law so long as it came out of the pockets . of the wealthy, but where the ostates were small tlio whole 'of the legal work should be done iu the office. He suggested to tho Minister that he should differentiate, iu this matter, between' large and .small estates. Sections 25 and 26 were dangeroils in that they extended much too far' the relief of the Public Trustee from responsibility. No private trustees would be so relieved. These clauses v.e.uld militate against the faith .and confidence, that the. public had in the Public Trust Oflico. He was glad that a Minister' was being retained on the Board-, but considered that the Minister for Justice, instead of the Minister for Finance, might act upon the! Board. Small Estates. Dr. A. K. -NEWMAN (Wellington 'East) urged that,'as matters stood, small estates were penalised. They got a low rate of interest, and the charges were high. As oltcn as possible the money of the widow and orphan should be withheld from investment in ordinary debentures at low interest, iluch feeling had been raised outside by ii lcar that the Minister intended to keep the legal charges high. The Minister should give this a denial, lie. approved the constitution of tho board, and particularly the .inclusion of outside business men. This' should have an important effect in connection with investments. He again urged the Minister to give a wider range of investments in the case of small estates. Such estates should'get at. least one per cent, more interest than they now did, anel one per cent, nicdnt a great deal to many people of small means, A Popular Institution, Mr. J. IIANAN (lnvercargiil) said that any attempt to curtail the operations of the Public Trust Office would be unpopular, ana would encourage u demand lor a Stale legal bureau. This institution had emerged irom a searching ordeal very creditably. Mr. Hunan put on record a* return of tlio amount of legal work done ,by the Public Trust Office, explaining that he did so in order thatif this work were cut down in the future tho people outside might be aware of it. Any attempt of .the kind, he was natiiilied, would lead to a public outcry. Ho advocated extension oi the operations of the Public Trust Office in small towns and country districts, and endorsed the view that the Bill should be referred to the Statutes Revision Committee. Regarding the evidenco 'given before the Commission, he urged that caution should be exercised in accepting sudi evidenco confidentially. One objection was that innocent men were liable to be injured by. such evidence. "Self-Abnegation." Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) objected to the Hill as hasty legislation,, and on the g-roiuid that it would benefit the legal profession, and ac;t to the detriment of viie public. Mr. 0. LAUIiENSON (Lyttelton) joined the other hostile critics of the Bill in objecting to the absence of the report of the Publics Trustee. It was an extraordinary tiling that the report of the Public Trust Commission practically damned the institution for extending its operalions. He did not know Mr. Macintosh or Mr. Hosking, but would guarantee that they were both Tories of the good old-fashioned type, who objected to the State interfering with privato enterprise. Before the House was called upon to vote on this Hill, every available piece of information should be laid before members. lie believed that the time would come when there would be free law in this country, and strongly dissented from tho remarks of the Commission regarding tlie legal work of the Department. , Mr. J. ROBERTSON (Otaki) said that if tho Minister wanted to put an end to wild statements nbout the Public Irust Office ho should afford tho fullest possible information, to tho country. He advocated tho establishment of a legal bureau in which the officers would give free legal advice in regard to other matters than the administration ot estates. Ho twitted the Government with having raised tho bo"Y of Socialism, and now fouling itself compelled, willy-nilly to put Socialistic legislation on the Statute Hook. MR. HERDMAN RETORTS, "MALIGNANT SI,ANDERS" REFUTED. The Hon. A. L. HERDMAN, in replying. vigorously denounced the line of criticism adopted by Opposition members. Not one statement had over been inado by himself or any other Minister of the Crown, he said, that was in any way derogatory to the Public Trust Office. No statement hint over been made by any Minister from which it could bo inferred that tilt? proper legal work of the Public Trust Office was in any way to be interfered with. If tlie Government, wanted any vindication of its position or a vindication of its desiro to sco tho Public Trust Oflico flourish and prosper, it was the Bill before Hie House—the most liberal measure dealing with tho Public Trust Oflico that had ever been introduced. 'Plus Bill had been drafted by the Public Trustee under his directions and drafted with tho approval of the legal branch of the Public Trust Office. This beiu" =o the arguments used r,»ainst his Bill "that nierht must fall to the ground, i Ever since the delivery of the C-ommis-

■■ion's, report attempts had been made by members oil the other side of the House mid by newspapers under their control to 6how that nil nttaek was being made by the members of the Government upon this institution. It had been suggestiM that .Mr. Bell, who was in the Upper Hou«e, iiiitl himself as Attorney-lieneral, hud deliberately made up (heir minds to conspire to bring this institution to the ground. No more wild statement, 110 more malignant slander, could ever have been perpetrated by anybody in public life inside or outside of that Chamber. Tlk: member for Lyttelton had attacked tiie Coinuiissieu and so hud a Christchurch gentleman named M'Culkiugli.

Slanderous Statements. Tho latter had not only made slanderous slatc'.enls, but statements that weie deliberately untruthlul. Mr. M'Cnllough had said that he (Mr. Herdnian) and LUr. Bell luul gone down to Dunedin to interview .Mr. Uosking before the Commission was set up, a statement that was unite untrue. Then the same person had raid that .Mr. Macintosh was a co-director with himself 011 a newspaper in this city: Not only had Mr. Macintosh never • been a director 011 this 'newspaper, lie had never even been a shareholder. *Subseiiuently Mr. M'C'ullongh had made a statement, he thought at the Unity Conference, that tiie, two commissioners, in making their report, carried out the wishes of Ministers and obeyed their instructions with the result that the report was antagonistic to the institution. His reply to this was that he could not have selected two better men for tho work that they had done. The hon. member for Lyttclton was unworthy to unloose the shoes of these gentlemen. They were men of high reputation in public life. He dared any gentleman in the legal profession to rise up and say one word against Mr. Hosking, of Dunedin. He dared any gentleman in tho House to say one word against tlio character, ability, and experience of .Mr. Macintosh. This gentleman was formerly general manager of the Bank ol' New Zealand. Ho had had x more to do with bringing the bank safely through its difficulties in its troublous days than any other gentleman who had been connected with that institution. Not only luid he been general manager of tho Bank of New Zealand, but later 011 110 was chosen by the New South Wales Government as the Public Servico Commissioner to control the Savings Bank ill that .State. After he had performed his duties satisfactorily over there, he came back to this country, and at the. present time was the superintending director of 0110 of the biggost institutions in this country—Messrs. Dalgety and Co. "And 110 man," declared Mr. Herdman, with emphasis, "daro say a word against his character, integrity, or ability." Mr. Laurenson: Who is attacking him? Mr. Herdman: Attacks have been made by you, and by hundreds of people outside. Every circunistanco and every fact that the Government could in honour submit t> tho House, the Minister continued, had boon placed before members. Certain evidence was given in confidence—under a real of confidence—but lie could quite understand that tho honourable gentlemen on tiie other sido of the House would say: "Break tho seal of confidence and' throw honour to the wind." He could quite understand that—it was .exactly what the honourable gentlemen opposite would do. The Real Enemies. Who were really the enemies of the Public Trust Office—the peupto wlio genuuiay desircd to mt-rsd'u'ce legislation wlucn woi(id put en. ttij Statute Bosk an Act to make too administration of tne office in- . limu'ly moro liberal than it had ever been in the past, or the peopite wlio- by limit, suggestion, or slander endeavoured to suggest tnat an attack was being uia<i!? on to institution? If any damage Had been done to tho office, it luul come abctu: by the suggestions inado by lion, gentlemen on tha other slue of the house, by tluiir inventions, and their insinuation.-:, not only inside tiie House, but outside 01 it. From his knowiudge of the inner workings of tiie office, tie c-ould .-ay that 110 one was mare anxious to bring aixuit a better condition oi affairs in the institution than the Public Trustee himself, and t.ha Deputy Trustee; and he bekwtd they would give him credit for desiring to bnng 111 ltgis:auon to make for its betterment. If any harm had b»n done, to t'Jio office it had not bcn'ii done by anything any member of fire Government had saul. Referring to the complaint about the delay in presenting the lupsi't of the Public Trusteie, lie tend that the Trustee was not by law undt-r any. obligation' to submit a report to Parliament. A report had been presented last roar, but from 190!) until I'J 12 no report was presented. One extraordinary tiring in connection with the controversy was the charge. that besauita a man was a lawyer he must be an.-;ica,s to destroy this msti-\ lutiou, which, by Hie way, had come into • existence by the effort of one man, who was by 110 means a Socialist, Mr. E. C. J . Stevens, and who wns a lawyer; and all Public Trui-tees 'had been lawyers. Was it to bo thought that the men at the head of the Public. Trust Oftice could not be credited with some desire to benefit the institution:-' The present Public Trustee was a lawyer. . . , Mr. Njjj.ta: He is not the Minister. Mr. ller'dniaii: I am Minister in charge of the Public Trust Office and I aril a member of the legal profession, and I coinsider that it is my duty to give to the institution the benefit of any little experience I have had. He believed from his observations that the Opposition divided the whole world into those who were bookmakers and those who were not —into those who were to bo taken down and those who were net. He ventured to believe that honourable' gentlemen 011 the other sido of the House, if thoy discovered a Government member in a church, Chcv would at once believe ha was there, not for the purposes for which the church existed, but for the purpose of robbing the community. (Loud laughteMr. M'Callum Yon are talking a lot of nonsense. Mr. Herdman: I am only drawing inferences from speeches made by the lionourable member for Wairau and others. Mr. M'Callum: Go and talk to c-hild- ; IC Mr. Herdman: The honourable member is getting angry. Mr. Buick: Ho you wonder at it? In l-eplving further to criticisms, Mr. Hordwan'said that if a poor person had iCIOOO lie would rcccive 4J per cent, from the Public Trustee as soon as it was invented. For realising the capital, a charge 'of '3 per cent, was made, but after that there were 110 deductions whatever. , _ ~ The Cheap Law Fallacy. Ho was against the establishment of a cheap legal bureau in connection with the office, for with it in existence justice would not bo done to tho peoplo whose money was invested, because the more the Trustee had to do for nothing the Iks would be the -profits from the common fund in which the small estate were invested. ' While he was head of this Department he would endeavour to see that when gratuitous work was thrust upon tho Public Trustee proper reiiiulieiratiou was made to him. While against the establishment of a legal bureau, he was in tavour of legal work bcin" done quickly and efficiently. Last year a Bill enabled the Public Trustee to delegate some of .his legal work to Deputy-Public Trustees in the centres. This had been of great assistance to each of thro offices of Dunedin, Christchurch, and Auckland. In Wellington itself the leal work was being done well by,.the indoor staff, but in order to secure expedition and efficiency legal work at the centres had to ho d o "* outeide solici'toiN. Another member—the member for Hutt—said that certain sections had been deliberately placed in the Bill to help the lawyers. Mr. Wilford: I did not say that. I said it would increase lawyers' work. Mr Herdman said that the clause complained of was the most literal provision in tho Bill, and lie wondered if tho ],oii. gentleman would vote against it 111 Committee. The clause provided that tho Tiustoe could investigate private trust estates on the application of a beneficiary. That was the most liberal provision ever ninda by any public Trust legislation for the past fifteen years. , The second reading was carried on the voices.