DOWN IN WESTPORT

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1827, 13 August 1913, Page 4

DOWN IN WESTPORT

HARBOUR, APPOINTMENTS^ 1 ■ m SIMPSON'S CHARACTER. PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY. PEUGE OF EVIDENCE, FACTS ABOUT THE LICENSE. The Parliamentary Committee set up t'j inquire into certain statements hinde by Opposition members of the House regarding tJiu action of the Minister for Marino in appointing Mr. W. R. Simpson ; to a vacancy on tho Westport Harbour Board sat: yesterday morning. Most of ; tho evidence was about Mr. Simpson's '/record and.'character. Late in tho sit- / Iflng a discission arose as to whether the committee ;'was not going biyond tho scope of its order of reference, and on this . question the chairman will rulo when ■ til© committee resumes to-day ■ Some objection was raised at first by •Mr. Atmore that Mr, M. Myers should ' appear before the committee as counsel : for Mr. Simpson, but subsequently Mr. / . Atoore withdrew his objection. Commissioner'' Culleji' wrote supplying details of *> convictions against William' Kyon Simpson. I The Story of the License. ' , J. S. Evans, Stipendiary Magistrate'lit Kelson, arid chairman of the Motueka 'Licensing .Committee, was examined by Mr.. Atmore. Mr. Evans explained the • proceedings - re Simpson's license as. follows:'—'"Meetings- of -ithe-Licensing Committee are;iif;ldv'iriv..tlie "months of Marchj June, ', v anicf'..Dlvcenilxir, l, awl prior to fhe'-.hoidiug-ofv'any licensing meeting itjis-l-iisual;tb/bbtaih.-a report: from tho Inspector'of licensed /Premises ■ for the district.., The annual meeting, at which all l.icejises aro granted or renewed, is held in Julie, and at the.Jlarch meet l ''- : ing, or just-. immediiteJy?\.pnor. -to.Vilho; March'meeting in 1912;-a'.report'cam£' in\ referring to the Karainea Accommodation' House, the license of Which was held by 1 William Ryan ftiupson.- That report was submitted to me. as chairman prior to tho, meeting, and .I,instructed' the clerk 'of the' Licensing Bench to write informing Mr. Simpson .'that thoro" was an adverse . report on his house: . , Mr. Atmore|...Will you.read the report? ; Mr Myefs 'asked 'whether the commit- ! bee thought it'Tvas" fair that' the report. should be read. He pointed out that the Licensing Committee could not have acted on the report unsupported by evidence. Ho did not know what tho report ■. contained, but he suggested that Mr. Simpson should not be made "a political football." If charges were to be made against his .character, they should be made by evidence'in the proper way, and ; not by documents which wero not evidence in any court of law, and which, ho submitted, should not be admitted" lis' 1 evidenco by a Parliamentary Committee'.,' Mr. Atmore: I understood", thfit';"Mr.' Myers would bo 'under- : etanding that there woliid !bP'no attempt to block necessary, evident. ... We have ft record of convictions obtained in tho ,' open Court wherbyMr. Simpson did have ; the right to call;'withe3ses'for the defence. ■ The record sufficient proof of the ;onvictions.;;\l\ want' to know. just, why tba chairman-of tfhe Licensing Committee decided to Idftise.'a license.to Simpson. Mr..Myers/(-He'didn't decide. I Mr. Atmor'e;here raised objection to,.Mr.. ; Myers's interruptions. . . Mr. Myers I den't. desire to interrupt Mr. .Atmore'ffbijt. I am entitled to correct , erroneous statements he may\make. Hay ; I ask whether" there has. been a,ny evidence that tlio committee 'did refusa a license 'to . Mr. Simpson? Y : ■ . Mr. Lee: Wo'haven't , gone that far. . Mr. AtmorefWe; cansoon.-put it'.Tight about the refusal of the license. " ■;■ •?■ . '.. Mr. Lee: Go 'on to that stage in the evidence. V.v : : 'V' Mr. Evans: The Licensing' Committee did not adjudicate ; on the'\report. -They; did not decide''whether;:;the. statements', , in the report we're truepr'untrue. ; v. '(To Show Cause;'.!i-.- • At the quarterly meeting'following tho; '. dispatch of 'r.thoi;-notice..to. Simpson,: lie. haid, Mr. ILayley,Appeared oik .behalf of: ; Simpson, and i -afr : 'thflt'.jheeting''the ..coni- ' mittee resolycjl'.'that' tbe.'lipensco' : be, called ; upon to sihowv.cause- why/the renewal''.of i his license -should, not be There was no application before the Licensing >' .Committee; in liTarchj but. in the ordinary. : course one ;.wo'uldi"bß made in June. . At I the June ifi'epti.pg: Simpson applied for a : \ti'ansfer of his'< license from .himself to /.Thomas , he - (Simpson) , appliei for the .'(renewal' of. the license. This was, of course,' ; the''wrong .procedure. ■ Transfers cunio first in the order of pro- ■ ceduro at the meeting',' .and' Simpson's ' application -for transfer'-/was: postponed until the application for reiiewul 'of the' license came up for consideration." At tho' later stage it was decided that the papers were not in order, and that there could he ro transfer of the license and also a renewal to tho present licensee. The proper procedure would have been for Simpson to apply for a transfer to Curtin, and for Curtin to apply for a now license. The applications were therefore postponed. At . the September meeting it' was resolved that a renewal of the license be granted to Simpson, and also a temporary transfer of .tho license to Curtin, who was informed that he would be held .responsible : , for the' conduct of the house, and not . Simpson. The'reason for this was that; Simpson could not find a purchaser. for the liconse, and ho had arranged -/for Curtin to take it over. It was well understood by the committee that Curtin was 1 acting as paid manager for Simpson. At the quarterly meeting in December, a permanent transfer was granted, finally vesting the license in Curtin. This was a i complete account of the transactions of the committee affecting,the iYarainea! Accommodation House]y .' ,v ' '. The Question of-Fitrisss. Mr. Atmore :]T,'should v like to ask the witness whether,, when t'lib committee Jield. Mr. Curtin responsible, it ; was because' thay did not think Simpson was a'fit-p&r-. Eon to hold 'a lic'oaso'.': ; Qfr. Evans did not think-it was fair that ." ■ a man in the iipsition.'of chairman of a Lioenang Committee :• and■■ magistrate Bhould Ik; asked ; tb'st"atb' his'par-ohal.opin-ion of the character,of:a inaa in/the district. . ,;. v .. : .Mr. Lee: What for telling Mr. ('was to bo responEifclle in future?.'':.-', '' Mr. Evans :-Tho reason was the outcomo of the polioo report and these convictions. .. ..Tte Liieniing Committee had. before, them ; the convictions. They diid riot call evidence because there was no reason• to do so. The position was that Mr. Simpson, . instead of appearing before the.committee,, simply transferred his'licensS. It was known to the committee that Mr. Cuirtin was going in as Mr. Simpson's manager, and they simply wanted to impress on Mr. Cuirbini that he alone was going to bo proprietor, and that Mr. Simpson must not interfere in tho conduct of the businoss. Mr. yVtmbre:. The committee did not oonsidw it necessary to ■ cail evidence to prove the jrcliec report ? You took the list of convictions as quite aceui'ate? ' ' Mr. Evan.s: Yes; Mr. Atmore: No attempt was mode ;to cast doubt.cm the convictions? .. iMr. v l3vans: The mnestiou of the convic-. tioiis was not rai-sied at all. Mr. Atmora: They wero accepted by both parties'? '. .' Mr. (Evans said that w'hat took place was correctly shown by the minutes of the' committee from which he bad quoted. In the couirse of events ti:-fore the committee it wa.s quite unnecessary to investigate tho convictions. Mr. Atmore: Was it not because of the list of'.convictions-that the transfer wae made .to Curtin—in. the opinion of the . oommdttso?.- .■ . Mr. Evans said he could not answer the nuestipl). He could be witness only of facts, and not of the opinions individual members of the committee might have. He could not say what he would haye done or woui'.d riot have done in another set of circumstances.' ■ " , • Mr. Atmore:.ls it necessary for you to ' give a .certificate, of'fitness to a man applying .for a -license? Mr. Evans: Yes. ' Mr. Atmore i Would you pire n, certifica.te to a," man with a record like that? J£r, EvaaSj X Hould not, without in-

I restoration. But, he added, it did nol follow' that he would refuse a liccnse t( a man because of such a list ■ of convictions. : He would need first to know tlx circumstances surrounding the 'offences. ? The Police Report. Mr. Atmore mentioned again that h« would like to have the police report read, whereupon the ohainnan gave the following ruling:, "It seems to me that the police report was never considered olKcially by the Licensing Bench. If Simpson had pursued his application for renewal it would have been necessary for tho Licensing Bench to consider the polirt report, and tit the .samo time the committco would ihavo been under an obligation to give Simpson an opportunity of denying what tho report euid. As it turned out this was unnecessary, for the question of renewal to Simpson was never before tho bench. I think, therefore, it would be unfair non to take that report as against Simpson unless we were going to give Simpson an opportunity betoro the committee of contesting all the statements set out therein, anil I don't think it is within tho scope of this inquiry to do that. , Mr. Atmore: Do you hold the report was not considered by the committee? Mr. Lee: I do say so. Mr. Atmore: But the report was read at the meeting in March. Mr. Evans: The report was read, but it was not considered as to its truth, or .untruth. Mr. Lee: If you had not known that the license was to be transferred you would have investigated the charges? Mr. Evans: Undoubtedly. In reply to Mr. Atmore he said that there could be 110 answer to the convictions, but the charges made in tho report were a different matter, and they had never been investigated. Also while tho Licensing Committee could not sit as a Court of Appeal against the convictions, the committee could inquire imto the grounds on which the charges were based, and might'then possibly find that a license could be granted in tha face of the convictions. Mr. Atmore: Have you ever granted a license to a man with such an array of convictions as this? Mr. Evans: I don't think I have. .: Mr. Atmore: Have you ever had an application for a licensc from a man with ail'array of convictions like this? ■ Mr. EvanS: No, I don't think'l havey License Never Refused. The Hon. Pi M. B. Fisher examined the witness on certain statements niudo .m.the'.'/House. ..'The following statement •had' boen.'made, ■ lie ..said, referring to 'Simpson: "Here is a man. who was given three .months by the Licensing Committee to get nd ot' his license." Was this correct? , ■ : , Mr. Evans said ho could ,*:only '• refer again ito tlic record in tho minute, and tnat spck>o "for itself. Mr.'.•Fisher: AVhy did .they give him three months—tt>, yet nd of his license, or to show cause? Mr. Evans: To show cause. That is the official record of t'no Licensing Committee. i Mr. Fisher: The .Licensing' Committee never sat in judgment on Mr. Simpson? Mr.- Evans: No. Mr. Fisher: "i'ou don't regard convictions under .tho Licensing Act as a bar to renewal?.. / Mr. Evans, explained that convictions were not necessarily a bar to renewal. ;-Ml'.;.■Fisher: -As a matter of fact, the Licensing Committee never refused Mr. Simpson., a. license ? ' Mr. Evans: , No; - . '" 'Mi-.'Fisher: They, held no inquiry or investigation? Mr. Evans: No. " ' Mr. Bradney: Wero any ot the convictions endorsed on the license? . Mr. Evans: No. Mr. Isitt: Was the fact that the licensing Committee never made any investigation due U> the fact that Mr. Simpson would riot face an inquiry? Mr. Evans: I can't say what was v.xiking in Air.'Simpson's mind. If Jin Simpson had applied for a renewal the ccmraittee Would have made inquiry. That goe3 .'.without, saying. Mr" Fisher :'Tiut they didn't Mr. : Sta'thain: Were there any endorsements 011 tho license? llr. Evans: Not as far as I remember. -. ... Thero is no record of any convic-tions-endorsed. Mr. Statham: Is it fair to assume that if convictions are not very gravo they aro not endorsed? " Mr.; Evans: J.;,can't say 'that. Every magistrate has his own idea as to vhut ■may 'bo endorsed. : Mr. Statham: Did the Licensing Cunliiittee dccido that Simpson was not lit to hold a' license ? • '■.Mr; Evans:'.The Licensing. Committee ;did 'not: decido anything' at all about Simpson. . ■ , . Mr.V Statham: Then they didn't decido that ho ivas not fit in their opinion? ':;Mr.-,J3tias:' - That necessarily follows. Mrl-.-Statham:--Then this statement by Mr. Atnioro that Simpson was not fit in the opinion of the committee ■ . . . Mr:,, Evans:. Is an inference:'for this cc-mmitteo. to ■ make. '. , Mr. Lee:.'l)id the Licencing Committee find-that:? ■' ■ Mr. Evans:'. I say the Licensing Ccmmittes found nothing. Air. Statham: Did the Licensing Committee, decido that Mr. Simpson was not a Bt person to'liold a license?:. / ' Mr. Isitt: This question ignores, one salient point— Mr; Simpson was given notice tlint' his license was imperilled and ho declined to face the music.' That alone justifies Mr. Atmore's statement Mr. Fisher : Of course Mr; Isitt made up his mind long before he caino here > Mr. Statham repeated: Did the committee decide that Mr. Simpson was no't fit to hold a license? Mr. Evans: The slioi't answer to that is "no." Mr'. Statham: I don't-wish you to ccmmit yourself to any opinion beyond that. That is all I'want. More About Convictions. Mr. 'Myers' then examined ill'. Evans. Mr. Evans said it would have been impossible for the committee to have 'refused Simpson's license 011 a report of tho police, unsupported by oral evidence on oath. In this caie 110 iral evidence was tendered by the police or by anybody else. Obviously, therefore, the fioucli did not refuse the license. He know nothing of circumstances out of which tho convic-tions'-arose. He would not consider three convictions on one day all nrisinj out of ■the same set of circumstances so bad-as three convictions on tlirec separate days. •This would be a'matter for investigation. the charge was laid in such an indefinite way as to be difficult or almost impossible to meet it, the tendency was to refuse to convict. He did not know that,thero had been any such indefinitoness (as Mr. Myers alleged) in any of Simpson's convictions. It-was not a fact as had been stated in the House that Simpson was convicted ■ for playing an unlawful game. He had'been convictcd for having permitted a raffle on licensed premises. The polico report was made by Constable Johns. , Re-examined by Mr. Atnioro, Mr. Evans said that tho committee would not have been influenced solely by tho evidence ,of the convictidns to refuse the license to Simpson. They would have had to inquire into the circumstances on which the convictions were based. The policc had twice objected to Simpson holding a license: The committee could not take the police report as evidenco; the report would not even become the basis of inquiry- Investigation would liavo to be by sworn evidence, and tho liccnse would not be granted or refused because of the polico report. The Usual Practice. Georgo Allport, Secretary for Marine, was called by the Minister. He said the usual practice in filline vacancies on harbour boards was for the Department to advise, the Minister of the vacauc.v, for the Minister to issue 'instructions to the Department to prepare a recommendation to the Governor to appoint a certain person named, and for this recommendation to be signed by the Governor. Mr. Fisher: Does the Department ever make inquiries into the character ol persons appointed to harbour boards? Mr. Allport: 'None whatever. Mr. Fisher: l'ou don't know of any case on record in which the Department has made any investigation into the character of-a person appointed to a harbour board? Mr. Allport: I don't know of my sue)] practice ever having been followed: To Mr. Colvin: The duly of. recommending a man to fill a vacancy rested entirely on tho Minister. Mr, Simpson Called. ■Wm. Ryan Simpson was next called. Mr. Atmore said that he had asked that Mr, Simpson should be summoned

as a witness because his character hail been, called, in question and it .was only fair that he should be heard. 'i'liu convictions before the .magistrate sbod. He went on to examine the witness. Mr'. Atmore: Ypu made no attempt hefore the- LU'c-nsing Committee to. tlio co n v ic tio n s ?—"So." Bid you not wish to carry on tho license yours mi':-—'"Xo." If thc.-v convictions had not been recorded ngiiin.4 you would you have wished to carry on the license?—" Yes." Illiio transfer was effected in consequence of the convictions?—" Yes." You are aware that if you had applied for the license yourself an investigation woulld have had to be held into the matter of tho convictions?—" Yes." "As a Wise Man." As a wise man. you decided not to ask for a renewal'?—" Yes." That is why 110 inquiry was held before the Licensing Bench?—" Yes." Mr. Bradley: You remember t.ho circumstances of tho railfe in connection with which you wero convicted?—" Yes, two young feiilows rained a pony ami gig." Mr. Fisher: Were you concerned in any; way with tho raffle?—"l had nothing at ail to do with it." j The only thing was that it'teok place on your premises?—'"That is so." A Sunday Dinner, Regarding a conviction entered against him 'for sealing liquor on a Sunday, witness explained that at a cricketing dinner in his hotel, for which 'he received Is. 6d. per head, beer was put on the table, in 'lieu of tea, for those who preferred it. Mr. Myers: Ycui were asked whether you proceeded with your application icxr a renewal and you said no. You lrere not asked why. 1 ask you why? A Police Report. "Witness replied that liis -reason lay in tho first police report sent in in 1910. It was a report by Constable Johns, who succeeded Constaole Carey at Karamea. Tho reason that Constable Carey was disrated, witness stated, was that he prosecuted two Justices of the Peace under the Stray Cattle Act. Subsequently, witness continued, the two Justices of the Peace went to AVestpprt and made a charge to the sergeant of police there against Constable Uarey. Tne charge was that ho associated with the larrikin element in the dlistrict, and that respectable people wopld not take him into their confidence. ' Mr. Atmore: Is this in order? Mr. Myers: All these facts are well known in. tho district of lvaramea. "Good Business Deing " Mr. Simpson went on to say that tho Justices oi fne 'Peace, in making their c'liai'ge to tlie sorgeant at AVestport, accuseu Constable Carey of having completely loiit control of the liquor traffic. * They stated that at 10.30' p.m. on October 22 or 26, three months prior (a the report going in, tiiey saw the hotel lighted up, anu that "I'n&re teemed to be good business doing." Mr. Atmore: is'houlU we not havo tho report, instead of hearsay evidence? Mr. Myers: 'Plus is not hearsay evidence. Ho continued-(to witness;: You say that the I two Justices had gone to West port to complain about Constable Carey?—"Yes - ." And he had'prosecuted one of them and their friends?—" Yes." Constable Johns caine to the district and has been t'ner'e siince ?—'" Yes." Is it a tact that since he came, pn the scene you were prosecuted in respcct of a charge which these two Justices went down to Westport and mentioned when making a charge against Constable Carey ?—"Yes, that is so." Is it a lact that on January 20, 1910, by reason of the eoniplaiiits;of tnese two Justices, you were convicted of permitting drunkenness in your hotel' \ sonic tnree monllis before?—'"Yts." v ', Werfc these two Justices called against you?— Yes. Were any other witnesses called?—Tho brother of one of the Justices. Mr. Atmore: This is sworn evidence?— The Chairman: Y'es. Mr.; Myers: Was there any proof at tho hearing on that occasion as to who the persons were that you were alleged to navo permitted to bo drunk?— Mo. Mr. Myers: Who tried this case?—Rawson. To another question, Mr. Simpson said that Mi'. Itawson used to stay, at the house of. one of the Justices of whom he had., spoken. Mr. Myers: Mr. Jones (the Justice) had thee opportunity of mentioning various mutters connected with tho district to Mr. Kawson?—Yes. It is known to the public, thero 'that lie does. Next day Mr. Kawson sat, and you were convicted on the evidence of Jones and the other Justice and a relative of one of the Justices?—Y'es. , For an offence said to have been committed, three: months before ?—Yes. The offence of permitting two people to be drunk, .without any ovidenco as to who tho people' were, without any evidence to enable you to identify thein or the'occasion ?—Yes. • Have you been .friendly since with these Justices?—On speaking terms. A Sort of' Family Party. Constable Johns came to Karamea—is lie more friendly with the Justices than Constable Carey , was?— Yes, ho is a brother-in-law of one of tho Justices,■ and the: other Justice, Mr. Gilbert, has a brother :marricd to the daughter of the other Justice; ' It is a sort of family party?— Yes. Tho two Justices are connected by marriage, and the policeman is connected with one of theui. by marriage?—Y'es, These ■ are the first • three offences, ■ then. Why did you not press your application for a renewal in June, 1912?— Because 1 could see°that there was a conspiracy working against' me,' and that- it was useless for me to try to fight-against it. • That was the view you took?— Yes. And you decided, on your own motion, to get out?—To get out of it. "A Constant Visitor." Since Mr. Johns caine upon -the scene has he been a constant visitor to your hotel to make inspections?— During the first three months lie used to walk into the liouso never less than once a day, and very often three times a day. Be has never had occasion to say one word to me. . . . During the tune that I was there he (Constable Johns) was hanging about the verandah all the time. To other questions, witness said that in .January, 1912, -he was convicted of using obscene languago to a man named Carter. Carter was a recent arrival in the district. AVitness was an old resident. His father established the hotel in 1876. Later, it was carried on by his mother, and lie had carried it on himself for nine years. His license had never been endorsed. The convictions of which mention had been made wero tho only ones recorded against- him in respect of his hotel license or otherwise. Mr. Myers: AVhat sort of chap is Carter? ' Mr. Atmore: Should not Carter bo here? Mr. Myers: Y'ou should call him, and the Magistrate, the Justices, and several others. I should be very glad to have an opportunity of cross-examining any witnesses you may desire to call. Mr. Simpson: It is v.ery difficult to describe Carter. Ho is a most extraordinary man. Mr. Myers: Y'ou were charged with liaving used obscene languago to Carter?— Yes. To further questions: Carter gave evidence. At the time When the language ivas said to havo been used a Miss Johnson was standing within easy hearing, and so were other persons. Carter and witness gavo ovidonee. AVitness denied using Llie -language. Miss Johnson was culled ns a witness, and said that she heard no vile language being used. Trouble About Pigs. Mr. Myers: The trouble arose over some of your pigs getting into Carter's place?— That is so. Miss Johnsou gave positive evidence'that no such language was used in her hearing?—Y'es. Did you call other witnesses?—Y'es, . . . They gave evidence that no such language wu? used. AVhat did the .Magistrate say?—He said lie 'would not ■'believe but that the language had been used if fifty witnesses were called. ' lie said that even if fil'tv witnesses were fit!led lie wits going to believe Carter, imd.,hol'.l. that the- language had been used ?—Yes. .Had you other witnesses?—Y'es. After that time did you proceed to call my other witnesses?—Xo. The Magistrate had ' stayed at Jones's m the previous night?—Y'es. .Jones know of tue charge against you? -Yesi

Did you use the language?—No, I did not. Other Charges. In further examination by llr. Myers, witness said that with regard to* the other three offences, ho was charged with assaulting a man named Pope, wilh using obscene language, and with permitting drunkenness. i'ope was working as a cook in the hotel. He left his employment on January 2G, the day of the incidents out of which the' prosecutions arose. Witness refused Pope a day olf, as he had had his half-holiday -»n the previous day, and stopped a week's wuges, in lieu of notice, when I'ope said he would go. Jlr. At more asked whether they were going to rehear the case, and whether tlie sonvictions did not stand. They were practically rehearing the case, and Jlr. Simpson was making' an absolutely ex parto statement. Bias whs being imputed on the_ part of the Magistrate. Mr. .Myers: No. Mr. Atniore said thai; this was grossly unfair to the Magistrate. "A Political Football." Mr. Myers said that an attempt was being made to make a political football of Mr. Simpson. Since the fact of the convictions was being disseminated throughjut the whole country, the surrounding lircumstanees should, in justice, be Equally made known throughout the ;ountry. The Chairman: I don't think for one moment that we can dispute the propriety of the convictions by _ the Magistrate, but if Mr. Simpson, without conJesting the righteousness of the convic;ions, so to speak, wishes to explain what the cases were, ho can do so. Mr. Myers said that ho only Tegretted that tho* scope of the inquiry was insufficient to permit a review of the whole sase. He recognised that it was not, but isked that, in justice to Mr. Simpson, ho should be allowed to Btato tho circumstances leading up to the convictions. I'here was 110 suggestion of imputing bias bo the Magistrate. What lie did suggest ivas that "in these small districts" a person was very often affected by what ho heard from people in the district whom lie considered to be reputable people. Justices Charged. Mr. Colvin said tliat the Justices had been charged with conspiring- with the constable. Notwithstanding what Mr. Myers had said Mr. Simpson had charged the Magistrate with being biased. This being so, the persons charged in their absence should be callcd as witnesses and heard in defeuce. Mr. I,eo said he had rule<l that Mr. Simpson must not mako against the Magistrate. Mr. Myers: I have already said' there is no suggestion of bias on tho part of the Magistrate. Mr. lsitt: What about the remark about tho fifty witnesses? Mr. Myers: I don't say tho Magistrate was not justified in saying .that. . Mr. Colvin: You have suggested that these men "got n't" the Magistrate and "squared" him. Mr. Myers: Such a suggestion is ridiculous. 11 any suggestion is made at all it is that people in small districts always talk. More About Pope. Mr. Simpson went on to state that he withheld one week's wages from Pope in lieu of notice. Pope came into the hotel some hours later and asked what about storting in the morning. Witness said no. The language which he was accused of using to Pope was tlie very language that Pope used to him on account of which lie assaulted Pope. He gave l'opo a pretty severe trouncing. To'tho constable he repeated the language that Pope had used to him. The language was given by the constable in evidence as having been used by him (Simpson). The assault ho pleaded guilty to. Provocation was set up and ho was fined JE2 for the assault, and 10s. for obscene language. The set of three convictions arose out of one set of incidents. He had been farming since leaving tho hotel. He owned several farms-. Having lived in tho district all his life, he was well known in it. The residents of the Karamca ridin- hail, elected hiin unopposed to represent thorn on the Butler County Council. The election took place live months ago and' lis would hold office for 18 months longer. The fact that ho had been convicted wns'well known-in the district. Some people supported him through thick and thin. He did not think thero were many- against "him. Some talk arose when Mr. Simpson asked .Mr. Colvin, as one who had known him from a boy, to say what he thought about him. Mr. Colvin said that lio had made no charge against Mr. Simpson, and "had nothing to say' against him—good, bad, or indifferent." "In Politics." ' Mr. Fisher (to witness): Would yoa lilind telling tho coininitteo what you aro in politics? Air. Simpson: I' have voted for Mr. Roderick M'Kenzie 011 every occasion that I havo had a vote. ill'. Atmoro: Ho you say that you were unjustly convicted? Mr. Myers: The chairman ruled that I was not to ask any such question. The chairman permitted tlie question. Mr.'Atmore: Ho you consider thait you were wrongly convicted? Mr. Simpson: Absolutely so! Mr. Atmoro: On tho whole seven charges? Mr. Simpson 'admitted the charges of selling liquor oil a Sunday, permitting a l'alt'le, and assault. How- many did you plead guilty'to?— "Oh, I don't know, but 'those aro correct—that dinner business, tho raffle, and the assault. Tho two charges of permitting drunkenness and tho two chargcs of obscono languago I deny. Did you plead guilty to any of tlie four charges that you' say you woro innocent of?—"A'o." ' if you ate not satisfied with the trial leading up to the convictions, did yori not think that you would have had a capital opportunity before tho Licensing Committee? "Hounded Out." 'W'itnc.ss said that owing to the distance Of Jlotueka from Kanimea it would liavo taken six months' profits of the business to havo the case heard before the Licensing Committee Ho had 110 doubt that he would have'got a fair hearing, but his position was that ho would havo had to carry 011 (he samo business. The policeman was prejudiced .against him, and woul.d hound him out of the country if 110 had a chance. Therefore lie had. considered it best to get out before -tlie policeman hounded him out. Finally Mr. Simpson said that he might yet apply for tlie licenso again, and get it. In further examination by Mr. Atmore, witness' said that the first ho heard of the Westport Harbour' Board appointment was that the Karamea Chamber of Commerce had recommended himi'for tho position. Jlr. Atmore: Don't you consider that if another man with a list of conriotions against him bad been appointed you would have thought it a queer, proceeding? The Penalty Paid. Mr. Simpson: No, I think in a country of' British fair play, rince I have paid tho 'penalty, I have a right to come out and take (fn active part in tho welfare and public life of any country. Jlr. Atmore: Three months after? Mr. Simpson: Any time. "My Word Against Yours." Jlr. Colvin: Do you remember meeting 1110 when you wero appointed to tho Harbour Hoard ?—"Yes." Mr. Colvin: Do you remember telling me "that you never voted for Mr. M'Kenzio in your life? ■ Jlr Simpson: Nothing of the kind. It is absolutely false! Jlr. Colviii: If Jlr. M'Kenzie has told me since that that von never supported II illl ? Jlr. Simpson": Atsoluie nonsense. Mr. Colvin: You 'told me in a house in Westport that you : never voted for Mr. .M'Kenzie in your life. Mr. Simpson: I told you nothing of the kind. Jlr. Colvin: All right, it is my word against yours. Chair-nan of the Board. The next witness called was Frederick Ferguson Mu 111-0, chairman of tho Westport llarbmir Hoard. Kxaniiued by the Hon. P. Jf. H. Fisher, witness said that he had known-Mr. Simpson for some time. All hough aware of the later convictions against Mr. Simpson, lie (lid not tell the Minister about them. lie considered-Mr. Simpson a fit and proper person to fill the position to which he had bten appointed. _ lie thought this was the general feeling in the district. Mr. Atmoro quoted'what Mr, Fisher had said in the Houss on the subieotj

piviiitiiiK out tha-t the Minister had said that if tin.' charges made were Iruo lie did nut fliink Mr. Simpson should bo un the board. Did witness agno with this? Mr. Munro: _\'o. Hud lie been acquainted with the tacts, I don't think he would, hiivi- said that. I:'urth«r examined, witness said that he considered that there should be some inquiry Wore the Government made appointment.--. In the present ca.se, he thought that Mr. Simp.-on's elect ion by the 1 people should stand for all thc.-e things'. lie had the confidence of the public. •Mr. Atmore: lie was not representing the people, but the Government. The Government should have inquired. "A Bright Young "Fellow." To Mr. Fishor: Witness said tlmt he considered -Air. Simpson one of the brightest young fellows in the district, and that he 'hud more capacity for public work than any other man he knew. Jlo did not recommend Mr. Simpson to the Minister for appointment, lie recommended two other men, and they . were not on the beard. Mr. Atmore: Did you stand as a Iteform candidate at the last election ? Mr. Munro: Mo. Mr. Lau reason: He stood as a Labour candidate. Mr. Atmore: Oil! To the chairman: Witness said that he did not toll the Minister about Mr. Simpson's conviction because he had forgotten all about it. It was not so important that lie would think about it. Down in Westport. Mr. Isitt asked whether, down in Westport, six or seven convictions against a man did not make him ii(ilit for a. public position? Mr. Munro: It is the oireumstanccs more than anything e'lso that count. He considered that Mr. Simpson was the victim of a conspiracy, that he had been hounded down, and had not had a fair run. Ho knew of eases in winch mwr had committed crimes and had not been convicted. Mr. Stalham brought up a statement by Mr.' Colvin that tlio Hon. I'. M. JJ. lusher, when -on a visit to the West Coast, had gouo about "all bombast find bounce" with the larrikins of the district, and elicited from witness a statement that the men with whom Mr. Fisher went about were, with one-exception, members or past'members of district local bodies. Mr. Colvin said that the question had been written by Mr. Munro himself. Mr.-Fidier: It's a very good question, anyhow. A Hostile Clique, Mr. Munro gave further evidence as to Mr. Simpson's character, and expressed tJio opinion that ho had been attacked by a hostile and prejudiced clique. Knowing all the facts and circumstances, he said that Mr. Simpson was a fit and proper person to be on the board. That was the opinion of all the other members of the board except one, who objected to Mr.'■ Simpson's appointment on political grounds. The members of the board were angry and disgusted with the attacks that had been made upon Mr. Simpson. Public Sympathy. J. 11. Powell, a fanner in tho Karameu district, and a member of the Westport Harbour Board,- considered Mr. Simpson a respectable, good fellow, quito fit to be a member of the board, ifost of the opposition to the appointment was political. Since the inquiry had opened, Mr. Simpson had gained many lriends over it'. The public sympathised very strongly with Mr. Simpson. The witness was examined by the members of tho Committee, Mr. Atmore declared himself ready to stale on oath that Mr. Roderick M'Kenzio. had said that Mr. Simpson had never voted for hiin. Mr. Powell said that he was .prepared to prove tho contrary. Mr. Colvin said that his charge against the Minister was that he had gazetted two members off tho board when tliero was no necessity to do so, and when lie might easily have waited until tho appointments of these members expired. Mr. Fislier said that his answer to tho charge was that; if lie "Jiail", delayed as suggested, the chairman of the board would havo been appointed, for the ensuing term while the two retiring members were still pn the board.

. Mr. Atmore said that, in view of the allegations of bias a»(l that Mr. Simpson mul nut had a fair trial, lie wanted Uic magistrate (Mr. Kawson), the Justices of the I'eaee. (.Messrs. Jones and Gilbert), and Constable Johns called as witnesses, lie moved accordingly. Mr. .Myers said that if there was to be a rehearing he wanted all (lie witnesses ivho had appeared in (he different cases called. Tho Scope of the Inquiry. Alter some further Mr. said tiiat the whole thing seemed to liim to be a storm in a tea-cup. 'llio matter was gradually being magnified with a view of discrediting the Government which made the appointment. He protested against the expense to which the country was being put. The chairman said that the member calling witnesses' had to pay their expenses unless t'lie Speaker otherwise directed. The Hon. F. M. B. Fisher suggested that the Committee should deliberate on ■the question as to whether the scope of the inquiry should be widened. 'Mr. .Myers submitted that if the scope of the inquiry were to be widened Mr. Simpson should not be put to additional expense. V In adjourning Hie meeting' until 10 a.m. to-day, the chairman said that in the interval he would consider whether the Cominitteo was not going beyond its proper scope.