THE MINISTER REPLIES.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1821, 6 August 1913, Page 8

THE MINISTER REPLIES.

CRITICS ASSAILED. DOINGS IN ELECTION y EARS. Tlie Hon. JAS. ALLEN said that a nuiiiuar oi misrepresentations uau uoen repealed t>y uiu upiAisitivm ' in tne nope ciiac ii ilu-y \>tTu )-ojh.'uwu onen tnuuyii Mjjiie peop«j wouid ttioin. -i.no • Uovernmcut naa never said mat uorivwing oaignt to cease. ii; liau declared u h aiusi, waste anu extravagance, ureal oujtccion Jiaa been ukx-u .to t'no removal ol Cue Minister. in tne nrsc pia-ee lie -nuu removed tno Minister troin tuo board because tnu position 01 tne Minister, unutr vms ivgifc.aiion, in uia past, nau been larcicui. air Joiupn nurd, during nis ■iasc two years oi oiuce, nad not attended toy boara, tnougli n« did attend lor a tune at lis lncupcton. Air. Alyers, when Minister lor i'iuance, had not atteuueu ac un. i\eitiiei- nau he (tno Minister;. Wiiat, tlien, was vne use oi continuing, tne.larce tuat tno Minister should bo a. member ot tne board? Tne Minister was open to misrepresentation it ho was on tuo board. Une result or tne inquiry lieid rust year was to bring to liguc instances that migut be saiu to me .instances ol lnlluenco brought to bear upon tne Minister and'his eoneaguo. it was wise to remove the Minister even from the suggestion, tnat no might be 111nuenceu by a suggestion contained in a telegram. sent by one of nis colleagues, it was incorrect to say that the rights of tlio people were being taken away-by this iiiil. Tne rights of tho people were being moro eiiectively maintained than under tlie exislingdaw.- ..- Under the exist-; ing law -it migncbo suggested that the Minister had' been -'influenced. Ho was not at all sure that sometimes tho Minister had not been iniluenced. * A member; Don't say that. The Minister said tne position before was that loans to bo. linally approved ' were brought before tne Minister, but it was a mere formal putting of pen to paper. •Ho said the farce had better be removed. He continued that ample powers of control wero given to tho Minister under the Dili, and that, if need be, they could be strengthened. An Absolute Veto. Mr. Buddo: Tho Minister has no power under this Bill. The Minister: He has.an absolute veto, becauso lie has ' absolute control of the money. The reason for demanding returns is that the Minister can absolutely control tho board by controlling tho supply of money. Mr. ltussell: Well, then, can't political influence be exercised? Mr. Allen repeated that tho Minister should have definite and clear control. Mr. Russell:-What about political influence? In Election Year. The Minister continued that the member lor Hiccarton had referred to tho amount provided for advances to settlers and advances to workers in I*Jl2. In the year ended March 31, 11)12, the sum provided for advances to settlers was ,£2,174,000, £674,000 more than tho law authorised in that year if it had not been for the accumulated powers under Hie Act. Mr. Wi-lford: It was perfectly legal. Mr. Allen: I don't say it was not. Mr. Wilford: What are you growling about, then? • ' The Minister: Tho sum of <£2,174,009 was paid over in advances to settlers in ono year. What was that year? It wa6 election year. I think it will be a very bad thing for this country if it is to bo allowed for a moment to ba supposed even that two millions of moneymore than is allowed under the Act — Mr. Macdonald: Two millions nioro? Mr. Allen: Kot two millions more — .£",174,000—if it is to bo paid over in election year, I say, definitely and clearly, that in my opinion it will influence the election. . _ ' Oppositionists: Rubbish! Mr. Allen: And I say that it will influence tho election. Tho Minister continued that tho sura provided for advances to workers in tho year ended March 31, 1912, was .£513,000. llow much had been paid over this year—not election year — .5449,000. This was not a very great reduction upon tho amount paid over iu the year ending March 31, 1912, and this year there was a shortage of money. During the greater part of 1912 there'was no shortage' of money. After the Election. What happened immediately after tho election? Who cut down tho amount to bo lent to local authorities to <£5000 ? The then Government! When tho election was over they cut down the amount to ,£SOOO. Tho Prime Minister: Eight away! Mr. Allen: Who cut down tho amount of advances to settlers? Tho Government that was in otiira at tho timo! They cut down tho amount of loans to £500 when the election was all over. It was not dono ly this Government. Advances to Workers. Mr. Witty: What about the workers that.you have cut down? Mr. Allen said it was true-that tho Government cut down the maximum of advances to workers from JMSO to X3OO for a few months only until a loan had been raised. Somo honourable members complained that tho amount lent to workers was not largo enough. The avorago amounts lent to workers during tho wholo timo that tlio system had been in operation, however, were as follow:—On freehold, .£302; ut leasehold, JCISO. This was I for tho period up to March 31, 1912. Last year "'the. avcrago ifreehold advance was Ji'i 1.1, „C 43 nioro than the avcrago for tho total period. The average advance on leasehold during th,is year was .£220, JJIO more than thetotal avrrajje. Then who could say thattho Government did not supply enough and kid not supplied enough for advances to workers'? The Government, hoped shortly to inoreaso tho amount, of loans from .£IOO to the maximum of .£l5O under the Act. Sinking Funds. It had heon paid that he was opposed to tho Public Debt Extinction Act. He was not opposed to tho principle under.lylnjf that Act. .

Mr. Russell: You put. it-in tho loan prospectus. Tlia Minister: I bad much rather liavo put in tlio prospectus (ho Act that .was iu torco.before the Act of 11)10. The sinking t'umls undw tlio earlierWct wore destroyed by tlio Act ol' 1910. Previous to the passing of the Act of 1910, lis continued, there were ncovued sinking fu>mls of 000, besides otlvar smaille? amounts'. These amounts were abs - orl>ed, with the result that last year only -Jill,ooo was paid into tho sinking fund. Ho luid condemned tlio collaring of the earlier sinking funds, and had made it perfectly clear that he did not approve of what was being done. Theso sinking funds had bson seized and utilised to make up tlio sinking fund under tho Public Debt Extinction Act of 1910. . With reference to tho loss of ,£22,000 in two years, ho had never suggested that any local authority had niada default. The losses were made partly because tho Government were borrowing at one rate, and lending to locaL bodies at a less rnto, and partly because they had moneys in tlio fund which could not at once bo lent, tho result boing that they remained for a time not interest bearing. .• It had been said that there had been delay in paying over money after advances wero sanctioned. Ho know of no delays. There might havo been delays beforo tho loan—of that ho could not speak—but recently thero had been none, lie knew, however, that in 1909 settlers had to wait sis months beforo they could get their loans, and this had been more or less the practico since tho Act came into existence. The Real Reason, Objection had been taken to tho placing ui the sinking lunds for these loans for advances under tlio Publio Debt lixtinction Act. What had been the reason lor separating the loans from the Act? Mr. Macdonald: Because they had sinking lunds of their own. ' Mr. Allen: Because at tho time those in charge of tho affairs of this country wanted to pretend to tho public that tlio debt of tho'country .was less than it rijally was. He ihoped honourable members Would come to consideration of tho Bill wil'n. their minds clear as to the facts about tho Minister being on the board. As to outside 'members—theso members had to be paid, and his experience was, and he jiau been advised, that heads of Departments would do tho work just as well as outsiflers. It had beeii suggested that because the Commissioners ap r pointed to' investigate tho working of .tne Public Trust Cilice recommended that outsiders bo put on the Public Trust Oflica Board', outsiders should bo put on this board. But the work being done by the Public Trust Office was very different. Tho Office was a big banking and commercial business, and it was wise to have business men. from outside the Public Service placed upon tho board administering tho' affairs of the Trust Office. Tho Advances Office was not in the saino sense a big business concern. Cumulative Authorities. Ho did not think tho member for Awarua could havo understood tho cumulative clause. Sir Joseph. Ward had said thVut while thero were arguments in favour of cumulation being allowed for advances to tho workers and advances to settlers, these arguments did not apply to advances to the local bodies. He (Mr. Allen) thought that if the argument for i allowing'cumulation in authorities applied anywhere, it should apply to borrowing for advances to local bodies. For these advances the Government had to 1m committed for a year or two years ahead. Tho absence of this provision for curnulativ.o authorities had already caused inconvenience in the working of the Department in his term of offico. However, he was not keen on cumulation, and if tho House chose it could striko it out for all advances loans—whether for advances to settlers, workers, or local authorities. ' Mr. Witty: Thero should bo a limit. Mr. Allen said ho was inclined to.agree with tlio honourable gentleman. Ho was not at all sure whether tho ono and a half millions which tho Government could "borrow for advances to settlors was not enough in any ono year, and ho was not ; at all sure whether it; would not bo prudent to abolish altogether tho system of cumulative authorities. But moneys •had to bs held.on.-ocijouutipf local bodies for long periods, -and 'if ' tharo was a reason lor cumulation at all it was in regard to advances to local authorities. Tho second reading vvas carried on tho voices. ........ Tho .House rose at 0.42 a.m.