BILLS IN COMMITTEE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1818, 2 August 1913, Page 6

BILLS IN COMMITTEE.

AN IMPORTANT RULING.

THE INCOME TAX.

QUESTION of exemptions,

Tho Houso went into Committee on tUp Land and Ineomo Assessment Amendment Bill, tho Old Ago Tensions Reciprocity Bill, and the Pensions Bill. On the Land and Income Assessment Amendment Bill (Hon. J. Allen)— Mr. G. V. PI3AKCE inquired why tho Minister, when making alterations in tho incomo tax, had not made an alteration ill tho mortgage tax.. That would havo been in his opinion, a better amendment than the one he had introduced. There wero many people paying I axes 011 mortgages who did not mivo ~£3OO incomo, and who also had fawilicj.

Mr. J. A. HAN AN ask«l if any proposals would be brought down to relieve families from Customs duties, railway rates', etc. Tho concession mado iu tlio Hill was to those not really in need of it. Mr. ALLEN said that any further relief could not bo dealt with in this Bill. Tho question about tariffs should really have been ashed of tho Prime Minister. The Government, however, was considering tho question of tariffs. Mr. Haian: Bailway fares? Mr. Allen: I don't know about railway fares. An intimation about tho tariff would l)o given to tho House later on. Ho recognised that relief might bo given from the mortgage tax, but this could not be included in the Bill. Ho would go into that question and see if relief could be given. Exempting Famllios. On Clause 2, increasing tho exemption to faurilios at the rate of £25 per child up to four childrenMr. G. W. FOItBES asked why that limit was imposed. Now Zealand wanted largo families, and this clause would nx the size of tho family. Ho appealed to tho Prime Minister to strike tho limit out. Mr. J. A. HANAN sought a defmito assurance from tho Government that assistance would be given to tho classes mentioned—those suffering from duties. Mr. J. H. BRADNEY suggested that tho figure should be altered to six or eight. Mr. Allen: Wo don't restrict tho children to four. Tho man can have twenty, but ho will get exemption only for four. Mr. H. POLAND said that explanation did not touch the question at issue. Ho suggested the words "not exceeding four" should bo struck out. This would mean that every child under sixteen and dependent on its parents would give an exemption of ■£25. Mr. Massey: What would that oost? Mr. Poland: That is not vital. Wo hnvo had surpluses for tho last ten years, and wo could put a little extra graduated land tax on to meet tho point. Mr. WILFORD said he thought nothing of this Bill. If they got to work to help tho men with £2 10s. and .£3" per week they would bo doing something. Mr. nine: Gomo over with mo. Mr. G. LAUREN SON supported tlie views of Mr. Wilford, Mr. L. M. ISITT said tho Bill was a "tinkering, tinpot little Bill." They wanted a plain statement from tho Government as to how they were going to help the working man. . . , Mr. A. S. HINDMARSH said ho had opposed, and vrould oppose, this BiH. Mr. H. ATMORE characterised tho Bill as class legislation. An Amendment Ruled Out. Mr. J. CRAIGIE looked upon tho Bill as a very unstatesmanlike measure. He moved as" an amendment that in the provision that where the incomo of both father and mother together exceeded .£"00 no deduction should be madoi tho sum should be altered to .£SOO. Mr. ALLEN asked the ruling of the Chairman as to this amendment. This would increase the burden upon people whoso incomes were between .£SOO and £700. Tho CHAIRMAN OF COMMITTEES ruled that tMa amendment would increase the taxation, and was therefore out of order. Mr. R. M'CALLUM moved as an amendment that the words "not exceeding four" should bo struck but. Mr. ALLEN objected to this on a point of order, as it would increase tho burden of taxation. Ho asked tho Chairman's ruling. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL appealed to the Minister to withdraw his point of order. It wotild not increase taxation, but would increaso the exemption. Tlioro was a big difference. The point of order was a mere technicality. . Mr;'-ALLEN said that the concessions undef this Bill would amount to £15,000 or £20,000. t . . , Opposition members: Overestimated! Mr. ALLEN: Now, if you cut out.the four and leave tho exemption open _to nil children under sixteen tho exemption would probably bo £dfl,ooo. Chorus of "Obs!"

: ... ..TAXATION AMENDSIENTS.^::::'' 1 When the Houso resinned, after the dinner adjournment, Tlio CHAIRMAN • OP COMMITTEES (Jlr. A. K. Malcolm), ruling on the point of order, said that ho had no licaiialiou in saying that tlio amendment was' entirely in order. It did not propose to increase taxation as suggested in the Bill. In regard to the proposed amendment to Clause 2, making tho maximum income exempted .£SOO instead of .£7OO, lio had ruled that the amendment ivas out of order on the ground that the proposal entailed an increase of taxation. 'Die point was a very nice one, however, and during the dinner adjournment he had looked np authorities on tlio question as to whether members were entitled to move taxation increases in proposed legislation. So far as he know the point had never cropped up in the New Zealand Parliament," but tlicy had authorities, in regard ' to tho Customs Tariff which, backed np his ruling. His endeavour while he occupied the Chair would always bo to secure to members tho fullest privileges, and on occasions where thore was a doubt he would nilo in their favour. In the circumstances, ho, would 'withdraw his previous ruling, and, since Buch an increase had l>een accepted in regard to tho Customs Tariff, would rule that members were entitled to move increases on the proposals embodied in tho Bill. He would permit tho mdver of the amendment which ho had ruled out in the afternoon, to move it after tho amendment before the Committee had been disposed of. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL said that the Minister had said that the remission that was being granted would amount to .£15,000 or ,£20,000. He would liko to ask the Minister what the estimate was "based upon. Tho income tax returns showed that there wero only 9035 persons paying incomo tax up to .£7OO. Tho Houso was entitled to ask what number of children tho Department estimated that there were. As far as-ho could see it had been taken that there were two children in every family with an incomo of from ,£3OO t0..£700. ■ • Tlio Hon. JAS. ALLEN said that tho Departmental officer who was present had not tho figures with him, but he was informed that tlio calculation had been worked out on a basis of three children to a family, tho number of families being about 10,000. Mr. G. W. FORBES 6aid that tho Department had evidently token a very optimistic view <jf tho number of children there wero likely to be per taxpayer and had givon tho Minister the outside number. Prime Minlstor Exolalns. The PRIME MINISTER said that this little Bill had been subjected to a eood deal of criticism. lie contended that it was not of any great importance. \ But it involved a new departure and embodied an important principle. This was tho first time that an-attempt had been made, in New Zealand legislation, to discriminate between tho man with a family and the man without a family. It mattered very little to tho Government whether members accepted tlio Bill or not. If members liked to take tho responsibility of voting out tho Bill tho Government was quito ready to accept the verdict. Ho believed, however, that a great majority of tho members of tho House were in favour of tho principlo contained in the Bill. It had been suggested that instead of going on with this Bill tho Government should do sometiling to make tilings easier for those who were fighting the battle of life in other directions. Nothing could bo said against that, but ho would ask members to remember what was being done in Bills before tho House. Bills dealing with pensions proposed to iucreaso taxation by approximately .£IOO,OOO. Mr. Russell: That doesn't help the poor man with a family. The Priino Minister said that a companion Bill to tho one before the Houso was about to bo submitted. This was tho Land and Income Tax Bill which proposed to increaso taxation on incomes at tho other end of tho scale. The Bill would go further, in increasing the tax on large incomes, than anything hitherto attempted in this country. They could not go lower than, in tho Bill before tho Houso becauso there was no tax on incomes l>elow .£3OO. What they wero taking off at one end would bo replaced at tlio other, end and he thought that was a fair thing to do. The two Bills went together. 110 had always considered that the best way to help the people who had difficulty in making, ends meet was to keep tlio country prosperous, keep up a good demand for labour, ond keep wages good. Surely this was .sound ■ political economy, and it was exactly what tho Government had been doing. Tho Govern- j

ment had looked forward to tho winter now coming to an end with a certain amount of apprehension, and liad sut aside a certain amount of money to provide employment if tho need arose. Only tho other day ho had given instructions to givo employment to a couplo of hundred men if it wero wauted. The Customs Law. It hail buen suggested that tho Government should do something in tho way of amending tho Customs law to exempt tho neceasaries of lii'o l'rom taxation. Uo did not know what tho Government could do before the end of tho session, because they had to keep, for this year at all events, very sound finance. Ho did not agreo with the proposal mado by tlio member for Wairau that the Government should striko out tliu duty on boots and shoes. Ho was not a Protectionist by any means, but when au industry was built up behind a protective tariff it was wise to bo careful about re.Uu.eing the tariff.. What would bsxxuuo of tlio bootmakers!' What would the members i'or Chriatchurch have to say about that? Ho was opposed to extreme protective duties, but they had to faco tlio position as it was, and he was not prepared to accept thuadvico offered by the mornber for Wnirau, Ho would recommend tho Minister in cliargo of the Bill to accent the first part of tho amendment—to make tho exemption for five children, instead of four. Tho Government mifflit, be able still to do moro to help men with families, but they could do no moro for tho present until they know what this concession was to cost. Tho "Gallery Politician." Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) said ho. wanted tho Bill KKgo through "in all its undestroyed radicalism." Tho Bill, ho said, was held up to derision from one end of the country to tho other. It was not worth discussing. Tho Hon. W, P. MASSEY said tho honourable gentlemen had said tlio Bill was not worth discussing. Why then was ho discussing it and wasting time over it? An hon. member: Tho Galleries aro hero. Mr. Massey: My friond, the member for Christchurch North, is a gallery politician. He holds forth between 7.30 and 9.30 overy night, but wo hear very little of him during tho rest of tho day. Tho honourable member, ho said, was always full of sympathy for the toilers. Ho did not 'believe tho honourable member had ever done an honest day's work with his .hands in his wholo life. For liis own part he (Mr. Massey) had always mado his living with his hands. Ho had commenced at the 'bottom of tho ladder, and although he had climbed tho ladder to some extent—had perhaps got to the top of tho political laddeT—he was not forgetful of the men still at tho bottom. The Government wero trustees of the people's money, and to wasto timo and money as tlio Opposition were doing'was not in tho interests of tho people. Hod tho hionoiirablo gentleman ever brought any legislative proposal beforo Parliament which was better than this Bill? Had he ever brought up a Bill at all? Ho repeated that the waste of timo in the House was becoming serious. Parliament had six months' work ahead of it, and ho hoped members would cease wasting timo and get down to sorious business. Mr. J. A. HANAN (Invercargill) complained of the Primo Minister having, as he alleged, indulged in personal recriminations. Down to Business. The Hon. J. ALLEN asked honourable members to oamo back to consideration of. the Bill. It proposed merely to make the burden of life easier to those having large families. Did honourable members agiwo with that principle or not? If they did mot, let them voto against it, I and have done. ■ Ho was prepared to i inoroaso tho number of children in respect of which exemption would bo made from four to five. If the limit of .£7OO a year was too high, ho was willing to accept a motion, that it bo reduced to .iGOO, but the House must take tlio responsibility for the' proposal. The Hon. W. P. MASSEY replied to soino statements made by Mr. Wilford that ,tho effect of tho graduated laud tax - .was nullified, . by . tho Giving furtlier • exemptions . for .improvements. The fact was that tho highest scale of tlio graduated land tax commenced at ,£30,000. The value of improvements on estates about that value was JM,000,000. On estates bolow tho value of .£30,000. to which tho graduated tax did not apply, tlio value of improvements was ,£2<1,000,0€0. A great deal of the land subject to tho graduated tax was not affected by tho changes in valuation, because it was hill oountry, held in largo blocks, and incapable of improvement. The man who profited'by the new valuations wa» tho small man, far below tho graduated (ax G. W. RUSSELL ridiculed the idea that the families affected by tlio Bill included, on an. average, three children. 1 ho Minister had acoepted a foolish story from his Department. Ho with Mr. Hino in his estimate of this Hi 11. , it began to .deal . with tlw oost of living problem at tho wrong end.. /

Difficult. Class to Assist.

The Eon. F. M. B. FISIIER said that there seemed to bo a, manifest dosiro on both. Bides of the House to assist the class of casual workers. It was a difficult class to assist. They could be assisted only by increased wages or insurance against unemployment. Hio Government was Icing blamed for what it had not done in twelve months. What had tlio Opposition done in twenty-one years of office? , i. The CHAIRMAN asked the Minister not to pursue that lino of argument. Mr. Fisher said that this ivas tho first proposal ever mad© from tho Government benches to assist married people with families. It might assist the man with ,£l4 a week, but it would also assist tho man with £0 a week. If tho, proposals contained in tlio Bill wero inequitable, let it bo given a trial for twelve months; tho position would thon do fully revealed. Mr. T. BUXTON said that tho Bill began to assist men. at tlio point where it should leavo off. Poorer men should be assisted. . . Mr. Fisher: Why didn't you assist thorn in twenty-one years? Oppositionists: Order! Mr. Fishor: That's tho curry-comb you don't like! , Mr. W. A. VBITCH said .that Ins objection was that the Bill did not go far enough. The man with twelve children better deserved assistance than the man with four. . Dr. A. Iv. NEWMAN also urged that tho man with tho largest family ought to get tho greatest concession. In Ins opinion the concession should be upon families of four nnd upwards. Mr. F. H. SMITH suggested that there should be no exemption in respect of two children in a family, and that tliero should bo an exemption for every child in excess of two.

Fifteen and Four. • Mr. D. BUJCK urged that no limit should bo imposed at all. If a man had fifteen children between the affo of 0110 and sixteen ho deserved assistance. A man with a "paltry four" did not deserve assistance at . all. Mr. ALLEN said that people who got incomes of botwoeu. • and «*/luO a year wore, as a rule, people who got fixed incomes and had received no increase of recent years. Ho could not make tile exemption unlimited because 110 did not know what it was going to cost. In tho present state of tho finances they could not afford to give ijway unlimited amounts. If members were against assisting people who received between and J!400 a year, and had largo families, let them voto against the Bill. . Tho Hon. F. M. B. FISHER pointed out to the Houso that tho limitation of the number of the family in respect cf which allowance was made was no new idea. It had been accepted in tho Widows Pensions Bill: Tho reason for tho limitation in the Pensions Bill, and in this Bill, was a financial reason.

A Throat and tho Answor. Mr. J. A. HANAN asltcd tho Prime Minister what other proposals tho Government had for reducing taxation on peoplo with largo families. Had ho any more proposals, or was ho going to overlook the really necessitous cases and givo preference to the well-to-do?. If tho Government would givo no assurance that something would bo done to reduce taxes on poor peoplo tho Bill would not bo allowed to proceed.. The Hon. W. F. MASSEY said ho understood tho honourable member to say that unless tho Government's proposals in regard to tho reduction of taxation were made known tho Opposition would not allow tho Bill to pass. Was that what ho meant?

1 Mr. llanan: You answor my question! Mr. Massey: Tho answer to your question depends upon your answer to rnino. We arc not going to bo, threatened. Ho milled Hint this Bill anvl the Land Tax and Income Tax liill vent togethor. lu tlio other Bill tlieiy was a proposal to increase the taxation on largo incomes, li' tho Opposition went on witji their present tactics tho Minister would report progress on tho Bill und drop lwtli Bills, l'or the sccond' was tho complement of the first, and throw tho responsibility ou tho Opposition tor tho dropping of them. Mr. Jlanan: What aro yoitr proposals? Mr. Massey: Our proposals will l) 0 outlined in the. financial Statement, which will bo laid before tho Houso next week, if not on Tuesday then probably on tho following day. Members of tho Opposition woro taking up a wrong position, of which tho public of this country would, not .approve. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL said that the Prime Minister would bo talcing up a moro statesmanlike attitude if ho reported progress on this liill iu order that members might see, lieforo proceeding with it, what the Government proposals wore. Members had not yet had an opportunity of seeing what tho provisions of tlio Land and Incomo Tax Bill woro. Tho Opposition did not wish to mako _ any threat, but members of tho Opposition party felt very strongly upon tills matter. Government members: Then, vow against it. An Opposition member: We will do that in good timo. Mr. Russell said that probably the Op. position would voto against tho Bill at the proper timo. It would bo better, failing any other plan, to give men of small income a bonus rather than go ott with this Bill.

Tho Limit. Tho Eon. J. ALLEN said ho proposed to reduce Vtio limit o£ inoomo up to which exemption would bo allowed from <£700 to ■■ jL-500. Tho limit of incomo exempted tiwa ' taxation would bo AIM in a. oaso where tlioro wero live ohildren, and if tho incomo from outside eouircos mado tlio total J£oo, thoro would bo no exemption from taxation. Tho provision with regard to tatai inoomo was inserted lest people who were vary wealthy olaimed exemption. Tho discussion dragged on, but uo nov matter was raised, in spite of tho ftao 1 that practically aLI tho members of thi Opposition spoke. Tho debate was no v. beyond oil question a stonewall, and th< Opposition would not call a division. At 11.15 Mr. T. iil. Wiliord rnovoa to report prowess, "just to eeo whero you all axe,' as lie phrased it. As timo went oh tho Bill and its om> bodied proposals receded at times into th<' background. Disoussion on tho.subjoct ol tho incomo-tax was varied by cheerful and somewhat aimless talk abomt ejection prospects and 1 things in general. Mr. Russell declared that tho proceedings wero permeated by tlio kind of humour that preceded sorrow, grief, and defeat. Some of tho Opposition members wore badly at a loss lor somothing to talk about in supporting tho motion to report progress. Mr. Wiliord pot over tho difficulty by quoting all sorts of important and unimportant items from tho Order Paper, and expressing a forvent des&ro to discuss them. From this h<? wont on to narrate reminiscences of previous etonowalls—ho used tho term qui to frankly. In this _ way ho continued far Gomo timo, while tho Chairman of. Committees thoughtfully studied a copy of tho Standing Orders. The member for Hutt got along withmit check until ho ventured a prediction that if tho sitting lastod much longer tho Minister in Cliargo of tho Bill and other members would bo in a state of ooma. Mr. Seddon carriod on in a 6imilai vein, but it was left to tho Eon. A. li tfgata to cap all previous performances.

STONEWALLING IN MAORI.

MR. NGATA'S EFFORT. When Mr. Seddon 6at down, th® mombttr for Eastern Maori rose ill his placo and discharged somo sentences in Maori at on astonished House. The CHAIRMAN said that tlw» mombor for Eastern Maori was ono of tho most accomplished 'English speakers ■■ >in tho House, ,l aiid ■■that 1 lio' musf;insisi upon hisspeaking in English. _ 111-. WILFOKI) said that Mr. E. M'Konzio, wlien ■ Chairman of Committees, had ruled <that a member of the Native ruco had'a right to speak-in Maori.. Tho Chairman: I rule that tho lionourablo member (Mr. Ngata) must speak in (in faultless English), Thon, Mr. CHAIRMAN, I must ask that you tako tho Sneaker's ruling. Uo cited a ruline of llt. It. M'lvcnzio when Mr. Hono Ileke demanded leavo to speak in Maori. When tho Chairman put tho question, that ho report progress in order to taka tine Speaker's ruling, the Opposition called for a division. Tho proposal was negatived by 32 votes to 22. Tho Hon. A. T. NgalJV after the declaration that progress would not be reported, at onoo began to address the iiouse again in Maori. . Mr. Malcolm interrupted him, saying "I have already ruled that tho honourable gentleman must address tho Houso in English. He must aot trifle with, tho Chair." _ ' ' • . . , Mr. G. W. IfUSSELL raid ho wished - to point out to tho Chairman that there . was nothing in tho Standing Orders of l the Houso or in tho laws of New Zealand by which a member of tho Maori race could be compelled to speak in English. Any lionourablo member who know tho French language could speak in I'rench it ho liked. Tho Chairman, by his riunig,. was making a new law. Ho moved that tho Committee dissent from tlio Chairman's ruling., , Mr. Malcolm: I would advise the lionourablo member for Avon that tlio Committee hag just taken a division on tho question ho has just raised. The Hon. A. T. Ngata suggested to the Prime Minister that tho matter had gone beyond a joke, .when certain privileges which ho always understood were reserved to tlie Maori race wero denied. Ho hoped the Prirno Minister would allow tho matter'to go to tho Speaker, in order that the rights of tho Native members might bo defined. . Mr. Malcolm: I can't allow tins to go on. If the honourable gentleman goes 011 to discuss a motion already disposed - of then he is out of ordor. Tho Hon.' W. F. MASSEY suggested. that if tho honourable member was not l satisfied with tho ruling of tlio Chairman lio could dispute it when the Speaker was in the chair. "I would liko to remind honourable members," , ho said, "that the proceedings of Parliament havo been degenerated by this oveniug s — • Mr. Wilford: Point of order. Mr. Malcolm: I can't allow tho honourourablo gentleman to proceed on thoso lines. ' „ , Somo flvo minutes later Mr. C. Parata began to speak in Maori. Mr. MALCOLM said tho lion, member must spook in English, for tlio saiiio reasons as ho (Mr. Malcolm) had ruled that Mr. Ngata could not speak in Maori. Mr. Parata was an accomplished speaker in English, and was in the habit of addressing tho Houso in English. Ho would like to ask tho lionourablo gentleman whether ho had ever appeared as an interpreter in Court. Mr. Parata: Yes. Mr. Young: A first-class interpreter,

too. ' These litUo diversions being tnsposcd of, tho llouso sol tied (town again, ana; Mr. Ngata continued tho stonewall m orthodox fashion, and in English. At 1 a.m. Mr. Wilford advised Opposition members to let tlva Bill go, and abstain from further obstruction. The debate now became obviously trilling, and no member oven, tried to speak on the Bill. There was a sparse altondmico of members, many of whom lay on their benches sleeping. Tho Hon. ,T. ALLEN moved the amendments of which ho hnd given notice. Tho elfect was to incroaso tho exempted number of children from four to five, and to reduco tho maximum income on which exemption could be allowed from .£7OC to JC425; Both motions were carried, anr the Bill was reported with amendments.

PENSIONS RECIPROCITY. The Old Ago Pensions RcUYrocity Bill was committed and ■ l-oportod withou l " amendment. PENSIONS BILL . At 1.55 a.m. tlio llonso went into Committee on the Pensions Bill. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL at once moved to report progress, but tlio motion was defeated l>y U1 votes to 20.' Mr. Ktisscll thereupon proceeded to rend tlio first speech delivered by Mr. Seddon on tlio first Old- Ape Pensions Bill, and tlio House settled down for a stonewall. ■ (Loft Sitting'