COUNCIL REFORM.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1817, 1 August 1913, Page 6

COUNCIL REFORM.

THE HON. : R. A. LOUGHNAN. SUPPORTS NOMINATIVE. PKINCIPLE. The Council resumed at 2.30 p.m. The Hon. 11.. A. LOUGHNAN resumed the'adjourned, debate 011 the second reading of the Legislative 'Council 'Bill, and the amendment that' questions 'relating to tho reform of tho Council to referred to a Special Committee. He said ha supported the nominative system because, m lis opinion, it was the best system for preserving tho basic functions of tho Council. Tlio chief function of the Second Chamber ; was,'in his opinion, to delay tho passage of hasty legislation. Men could not be elected to tho Legislative Council without giving a pledge, and, ( while this was isoY tho Council would bo 'powerless to dela)' '.certain legislation, but would rather accelerato it. He. thought also that if there'was to be an electivo Second Chamber, tho franchiso should be different.: If it was to bo elected by proportional representation, it would bo a more thoroughly rcproseii; tativo Chamber than the House. If this should prove to be so, the Council would not bo content with the limited functions) which it was proposed to give to it. It had . been said that the Government had a maridato from the people to make tho Council elective, but this was only partly true. There had been a good deal of talk, much of it wild talk, about the Upper House in the election campaign, but not a single speaker, and not a single newspapur had ever set out to discuss seriously the question of amendment of the Constitution. -If there was a mandate, it certainly was not the mandate of tho considered judgment of tho people. He did not think proportional representation would be a. desirable innovation, being rather of opinion, that the multiplicity of parties in tho Chamber would produce chaos. If the system were to bo tried, it should bo tried first in the House elections. ' THE HON. C. M. LUKE.

ADMITS SEVERAL DOUBTS. The Hon. C. JI. LUKE said lie approached the question of the reform of the Council conscious of bis own inability' fully to understand all phases of tlio question. Last year ho had voted for tho fiiil at every opportunity, because he had for a number of years felt that it was uecteiry that the Council should to some extent and in someway reflecyihemind of the peoplo of tho Dominion. Ho would annuo lreejy time he did not at that time realise the difficulties that seemed to stand in the way, and the more lie had learned of the question, the more he was ooiH-inced r 6f' the existence of great difficulties. Ho lhad .been much interested in Sir. Sinclair's proposal that the Council should bo partly elective and partly nominative, and ha bettered a Council. constituted as hi) had proposed would-serve the needs of tho country very well. The agitation for the reform of the Council • lijid been going on "for very many years, rising in force to amount' at times to clamouir, and subsiding to 'be at times of. no consequence.. Me was bound to say that over a number of years the agitation , in no sense compared with the agitation ' manifested by tne people in trying to bring about changes affecting the wellbeing of tho people. In any ease, it did not follow that the Government should bo Swayed by agitation. • They might be compelled to turn a deaf ear to clamour, j.lle believed that this country had rnaniJ tested. an. intelligent moderate desire for ' to-degree' of .representation of. tho. peoplo j in the Upper House.. ! Sir. Jones: Never. ; Sir. Lute.: I can only speak'of -my own Itnowlodgd of course. ... 1 admit that there is much"to be" said for tho intention of ,tliß nominative principle. We may. inspire'each ofliei'i we may admire <iach other;''we may.admiio this institution,.'but that is not meeting the question; that is not facing it with courage, land dn some equitable and fair way deal- ! ing with it. Hq was strongly opposed to large electorates, and to the odoption of a system of representation for the Council different from that for the House. In Australia, one House was elected by , largo electorates, aud one by limited electorates, and Mie two Houses did not givo the same reflection- of the people's will. Ho was in favour' <jf a Chamber partly elective, ami partly nominative, 011 the pattern of the secondary Chamber of- tho (South African Union Parliament. THE HON J. DUTHIE. ;

ON. THE SHAM "LIBERALS." ' The ,Hon. J. DUTHIM complimented previous speakers on the very high-class order of, tlio speeches tlelivuivd—Speeches •which would navo reflected orcditon any Chamber. It seemed to him that the aim • of some of the supporters of the: nominative system—and he specified Mr. John Rigg—was 10 bring about the destruction -of the ' Second Chamber. To this he was entirely opposed. ; The abolition of'tho Second Chamber would bo the forerunner of anarchy, and would end in tho breaking up of our civilisation. A Second Chamber was necessary in tho Government of auy country, if good measures were to go on the : Scatute Book. Measures could bo made perfect only by a Second Chamber revising tho work of the other. It ■was rather to be deplored that the system of life nomination to tlio Council Lad been displaced by the present system of nomination for seven years. ■ Tnis had hail tho effect, tho effect which was Bought, of giving autocratic power to tho head of the Government. Tho result of tho autocratic control over the Council jivas .that, tlio Government's legislation ,;iras not considered by the Council as it should have been, and as it was considered under the lite .system of nomination. Indefinite, ill-conceived laws, which should have bean stopped by the Council wero not stopped. lie hoped they would bo able to remedy this evil, and that tho Council would bo enabled to do its work olt'cctively. The country was seething with indignation against indefinito legis- 1 lation, and _ the perpetual amendments nccessary. But it the Council was to do tiny good, it must have some powers; if the Council was to have only makebeiievo powers, then tlio Bill must be classed with tho seven years' Bill.

A Sign of Intelligence. He had been glad to hear Air. Sinclair Bay that the people were growing in intelligrence. That had been to him a verygratifying admission, in view of the result of last election, _ Ho took it that the system of nomination for life would not bo revived, and they had to accept the elective system. He could, however, lind 110 reasoning to assure himself that any advantage would come from proportional representation. As yet, lie was not converted, but ho was open to conviction. llr. Bell: Come into Committee. Mr. Duthie: Just so. Ho added that ■ho was anxious to have a strong Council. Mr. Jonesi We've got it. Mr. Duthie: Yes, so long as you behave as well as you havo been doing, and as long as tho Government remains in power. He went on to say that tho Liberal party was breaking up, and would

not have a very long effective life, for his own part, he was a Liberal, of the type of fifty years ago, ho would admit. Ho was brought up to believe in freetrade,.'and; individualism was a prominent plank in the Liberal policy—this policy of freedom, for.men and of throwing tho prospect of tho world open to all. Tho widespread general prosperity was evidence of tho advantage of this freedom. Nowadays men were bound and thwarted at every turn, and it was being called liumanitarianism. But it was stopping, and it would continno to stop, tliat progress which had characterised the last fifty years. In the history »1 the world there had never been such a time of progress as had been 'witnessed during the past half-century, and the progress was all due to freedom. The Liberalism of to-day in New Zealand was 110 moro than opportunism. The name had been usurped with brazen effrontery by those who had called themselves by it in morn recent years. In Australia La« bour was asserting itself, and worso things might happen than the establishment of a. Labour party here, but tho Socialist element in the background woitld be always a source of danger. Then the good Liberals would join with the Reform part}-, who were trying to do the best possible for the country. Tho scally-wag Liberals would be compelled to attach themselves to tho Socialist party. Proportional Representation. Ha saw nothing but a host of objections to proportional representation. Jle was quite willing, even anxious, to he converted, but for the present lie did not think Alio system would work. The ordinary voter would not go to the poll to voto for the Couiicil candidates. Mr. Bell: They will go to the same poll to voto for their local candidate. Mr. Duthie said it seemed to him that at least the voters would not bo really interested in voting tor candidates with whom they could not bo in personal touch. It would also bo difficult to get the rig'ht kind of inen to stand for election to the Council, and the right kind of men would never bo returned in elections that would lie controlled by disciplined) organisations. Again, there was no certainty as to what the effect of proportional. representation would be. It might give ail unfair advantage to the well organised labour section of the community. He had no objection to labour coming forward and puttiug its views before the country, and taking their sharo of power, but they, were not, in his opinion, well qualified to take the rums ot government. He suggested thai somo qualification should bo-required of candidates for the Council. He would suggest that a candidate should be 36 years of ago, that he should have been sitting as » member of Parliament, as Mayor of a New Zealand city, or as a member of ,an Education Board for thieo years, asa member of a borough council or a conn- 1 ty council for five years, or that he should bo the holder of a degree froni a chartered university in the British Domin-, ions. Suoh qualifications as these might ensuro that men fit to take their places in the Council would bo elected by tho popular vote. Failing .. this. , was that the vacancies recurring' in "tlio Council might with advantage be filled hy the two Houses of Parliament electing candidates by ballot. THE HON. J. T. PAUL.

WILL VOTE FOR THE BILL. ■ The J. T. PAUL said that last year ho had voted for the Bill, and at every, opportunity he had this year ho would voto for the principles in. the Bill—direct election by proportional representation. Thds year's Bill was an improvement, and lie would do all in his power to assist the. passage of it. There was no doubt that tho Legislative Council was not held in the esteem in the country to which its work should have eni titled it, and the reason for this, he said ! without hesitation, was because it was a nominee Chamber. Tho evidence accumulated every session of the need for a Second Chamber, but the present Chamber was not guven credit for tho useful work it. did. It was freely said that the Council was composed of camp followers of either of tho two parties, but some members of tho Council knew this was not true. Ho was in favour only of direct election by tho people, and not by an electoral college. While all other institutions in tjio country had bgen gradually derntHeratised, the Council had stood where it was 20 or 30 years ago, fcr the seven years' nomination had turned out to bo no improvement on the life nomination method which preceded it. He had no fears that tlio giving of tho power to the people of electing representatives to tho "Upper House would result in disaster, and the Government could not be rightly impeached for introducing a Bill to embody that principle. He) believed the democratising of the Council would increase public interest in it, and lie believed, that the collective ..vote of tho peoole embodied mere'wisdom than the vote'of any Government or college. Ho thought a Bill to give power to tlio people should bo. supported.

Mr. Beehan: Even if it is hasty legislation?

'Mr. Pauh What is this ctv about | hasty legislation? And Mr. Paul gave his j answer by asking another question: How ; many Bills besides the referendum liave i been thrown out .by this Council in the last 20 years? Although ifills had been piled, into the Council so" fast at the end of tho sessions thot they could not bo considered, they were invariably passed. The ! Council had been no cheek on hasty legisI lation. In any ens?, he did not think the function of checking hasty legislation was the principal function of the Council. ITo defended proportional representation as tho best method of election calculated to givo tho fairest representation to all sections of the people. Tho Hon. J. T. Paul continued the I debate when tho Council met at 8 p.m., and referred to the elimination of tlio third parly from Australian politics. This was brought about by tlio Labour party [ gaining strength and causing tho other . two parties to coalesce. If tho Labour | party grew in this country there would | be a chango in the existing political parties. ,It might happen that two parties would bo formed, but he believed it would Igo back to thjeo parties. With regard io tho Prohibition party, ho did not think thero was any danger of it becoming a distinct political party. Neither tile e.\- [ trcnics of Labour nor Capital wero going to rule this country, but tho moderates. He asked, Why had those who had supported tho Bill for ail elective Council gone back on tho Bill ? He believed it was bocause of tho fear that Labour would gain tho influence in this country that had been iraincd in ' Australia. If .the Bill was passed he believed that Labour would gain a fair representation in the Cowncil.' From, his point of view, tho main blot on the Bill was t'hnt rol> bing tho Second Chamber of any permanent voice in blocking any legislation. The Minister proposed to make the Chambc-T democratic, and in touch with tho people, but made it less effective «s a Second Chamber. While he supported the Bill, it was not his ideal. His ideal was the Norwegian system, by which all members should bo directly elected on the one day. Whan Parliament met a section of 10 out of 120 could be selected to sit as a revising Chamber. By this system all the members of both Houses .would b? sent up as tho direct representatives of the people. They would havo on effective Second Chamber, and the peoule would havo absolute confidence in both Houses. TIo proposed to vote amiinst the Bill going to a committee. He contended that tho Hon. -Mr. Snnvuol's speech proved that sending tho Bill to a committee was an effectivo method of getting it out of thn way.

HON. JOHN BARR. FAYOUHS ELECTIVE PRINCIPLE. Tiio ifoil, JOHN ISAlill said lie was pc-I'.t.vjiKilly m favour of the elective iirnieiple. Ail the speakers seemed to bj acting independently, and treating the Uill 011 its merits. U'hile 110 was 111 flavour of tlie elective principle, ho was not in favour of many of the proposals of tho Bill. There -were /dangers liable to be brought into existence in this country at tlie present moment, under tlie proportional representation proposals. As a reform in tho Council, ho suggested that local Bills might come to the Council first. 'lUiis would bo beneiiciul to tho local bodies. Ho was impressed with the idea that they could jiot otfectively deal with the one Chamber without dealing with tho other. Tlicy were so linked up to;,'ether that ho did not see how they could got away from this. With regard to tho iinrandmcut, bo thought if tho Bill wont to tho .second reading, without tho amend* incut, it would lie tlio CJid of tlio Bill. He did not think the putting tlio Bill lo a committoo was an. attempt to kill tlio Bill. Mr. Ban' said he supported tlio proposal to send tho Bill to a committee for fullest consideration. Deferring to the Hon. Mr. Duthie's proposal that members should have certain qualifications, such as being tlio Mayor of a city, lie would say lie had seen some queer individuals as Mayors. Taking New Xculand, as a wholo, went ou the speaker, they wore largely Labour. They would not bo dictated to as to who they -woukl voto for, but when a man eamo up for election they carefully weighed up the man. His only fear about going to tlio electors was of being tied up to any section. Ho hoped the Leader would wo his way to let the Bill go to a committee,, without a division. HON. J. E. JENKINSON. SOME REFORM NECESSARY. Tlie Hon. J. E. JENICINSON referred to the good dono in the past by the Council in stopping the Bills being rushed through. The question with regard to tlie committee was whether the Bill should go to the committee before or after tlio second reading. With regard to the statement made that tho second reading of tho Bill, last session was voted for out of _ courtasy to tho Loader, 110 hoped that this suggestion would never be made again. All tho suggestion inado during tho debate could bo boiled down into this: that there was scarcply on individual member who was not convinced that some reform was necessary. He did not think lie was wrong in suggesting that' they agreed tho best method to get a real workable Council was by appointment. lie considered this tile best inethpil, and agreed with tho Hon. Mr. Duthio that some qualifications should be held to safeguard electors. He would nbt go so far as to agree with the qualifications suggested by the lion, gentleman. Tlie feature during tho debate had been for better appointments. Surely they had brains enough to keep the appointment method, and safeguard it if it was considered necessary. He was prepared to send the Bill to a Committee, but if the second reading was passed he took it that they must pass it right through. He trusted it would not pass tho second reading. HON. J. B. CALLAN.

COUNTRY CALLING FOR ELECTION. The Hon. J. B. CALLAN supported the election of members to the Council. It was no neiv tiling for him to support the elective principle. He had douo so lust session. For the last 30 or -10 years it had boon a question before Parliament for 11 change in the constitution of the Chamber. Surely it was time that there should be some practical and definite issug? He claimed that the Hill bet'oro them ?avo thks. With regard to proportional representation lie could say this was crowing largely in favour. It was gaining great ground in tho Old Country, and was the fairest method. Tho country was calling out for election of tho Council,' and ii' they went on playiii? with tho question tho public would* call out for abolition of the Council: Ho could not subscribe to the suggestion that they should have election and nomination. At 9.-15 p.m. tho Hon. CAPTAIN TUCKER moved the adjournment of tho debate.

Tho Council adjourned till 2.30 p.m. to-da.y, ; :