IMPREST SUPPLY DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1816, 31 July 1913, Page 8

IMPREST SUPPLY DEBATE.

THE 'GOVERNMENT' AND ITS CRITICS.

PREMIER HITS HARD.

PREMIUM BONDS BILL TO PROCEED.

The Legislative Council eat at 2.30 p.m. The Hon. H. D. BELL moved that the following Select Committee, to Confer with a similar committed of the' House of Representatives, bo set up to consider the .amendments miulo in the defence legislation by the Act of 1912 in their relation tr. military custody, punishment, alternative service, and such other -matters as may be referred to it by the Government: Tho Hons. 11. D. Bell, J. Anstey, Dr. Col- ; iins, J. Duthie, S. Thorne George, C. A. I C. Hardy, Major Harris, John liigg, Sir ■JVilliom Russell, and G. J. Smith. TII9 motion was carried. THE.REFORM BILL AMENDMENT TO SECQND HEADING. The Hon. 0. SAMUEL resumed the debato on the second reading of tho Legislative Council Bill. The measure', he said, might be fraught witli more possibilities than almost any Bill before tils country. Tho debato" on tho Bill was raised to . a much higher plane and called upon them to reply carefully to the terms m which the L&ider of the Council had addressed them. They had'to put-aside all party questions, and ■ faCe their duty _ without •haste anil uninfluenced; to consider the matter, and ado.pt- the course which seem- ' ed right, whether it meant the reversal or not of any previously pronounced views. { It was because of this, went 011 the speaker, that he. set -about reconsidering the ivholo question.'. They had to gather evidence, and consider what had been dona , in tho past, before forming an opinion on gucli an important matter.- He liad spent a long timp in earnestly studying tho . question, aiid had Teud the views of those holding a diametrically opposite, view.. The hon. -gentleman read extracts from tho speeches, which he had studied, and gavfi a brief retrospect of certain proceedings which had taken place-in "tlao-past ' when Legislative Council- reform was-wi-tter consideration. The references, lie thought, would- be found helpful at the present juncture. In 1883, in tho Governor's Speech, the following reference, was made: "It is, I thank, generally conceded' that the Legislative Council has for the most part' discharged its functions with credit to itself and. advantage !to the' colony,' but public opinion has, I believe, come, or -is fast conung, to the conclusion that the time has arrived when an elective should be substituted for a nominated Council. It is obvious such a change should not bo attempted without croat consideration." .In.the same session of 1883 Sir Frederick Whittaker, when Prime Minister, said that he never intended bringing in a Bill-for an elective . Council for passing at that session, bat after it had- been discussed -and referred to tho constituents the question could bo introduced/ Tho Bill was not moved, and he took it that- it was tho only time' a Bill for an elective council by the' pttople was referred to. 1 In 1885 Sir Frederick "Whittaker, during tho sec-, ond reading of a Bill to reduce the term of office in the Council to ten years, and abolish life tenure, moved an amendment to set up a Committee to consider the present -state of the Council, and Teport in three weeks' time. This step was similar to what he (the Hon. Mr. Kamuoi) .proposed to take. The amendment was then carried, and the committee set np for careful consideration of the Council. ' In Augilst, 1885,- the Committee reported that it had been unable to a«ree to make any alterations' or amend- ' inents, although many resolutions bad' been carried. Ouo of theso was that ' every member elccted thereafter should be elected for ten years. The Bill was not proceeded with by, the Government, the Stout-Vogel Government, and again there was'evidence that the matter was treated as above party. In tho same session/Sir Frederick Whittaker, as a private member, moved the second reading'of a Legislative Council Bill, and the speaker torfk this as the first Bill intro'duced by that gentleman. His Bill was for having members elccted by ballot by both Houses .as vacancies occurred. Sir I'rederick pointed out three modes of dealing with the question—nomination, election by the general constituencies, or a special constituency, and election by an electoral college. The second reading wis carried, but the Bill wds hot proceeded hvitb. In 1889, as Attorney-General, Sir Frederick "Whittaker moved in a similar 'direction, but in this case he was defeated by 22 to 11. Proceeding the speaker 'said the Coun--1 oil should havo the confidence of tho [icountry. If they did not have it'they [Bhould-take some steps to ensure having lit. The speaker referred to other measures taken to bring about a chango in 'the Legislative Council, and indicated that in the course he should respectfully Tecommend he would guard against it ■lieing taken as a precedent to allow tho [Bill to bo read a second time, and then going to a Select Committee. .Since 1891 '■•he thought they, had had less regard for' 'their responsibilities; a tendency to (hasten, and hit while the iron was hot, in case public opinion should change. -In 180-1 Sir Wm. Steward moved the second reading of a Bill providing for election of Councillors by tho.Houso of Ke.mresentotives, with retirement at 77 years. ;Tlus was negatived on the third reading. >In tho samo year Mr. Seddon declared 'an favour of abolishing tho Second House. On every occasion the Hon. Mr. Massey, •and thoso acting with him, had expressed themselves, that a chango in the Constitu- • tton was necessary, and that change, if imot by direct election, should bo by .members of both Houses. He (the speaker) realised/that the lion. Leader of the House was right in saying, "Don't ■flout the question." Tlio Hon. Mr. Samuel then moved an Amendment, as under, to the motion that the Legislative Council Bill should bo read a. second .time:— '

they stood to-day having very little r&sult from the postponement from last session to this. It was to give,consideration to the Bill in tho best practicable way that he seconded tho amendment moved by .the Hon Mr. Samuel. The lion, gentleman 'had referred to the fact that the members of tho Committee should consider it with an open mind. ' "Well, I could not consider it with an open mind, on some points," he said. Hon. 0. Samuel: As far as possible. I said. (Applause.) The Hon. H. D. BELL asked leave to speak without losing his right of reply. This was granted, and ho said ho spoke only as the member in charge of the Bill, and the member responsible for its presentment in the Council. As such, he could not accept the substitution of something for the second leading of tho Bill. He was able to remind the Council that when the second reading took place last session they never did more than affirm their desirability of considering the need for an alteration. He asked the Council to adopt this course, with his assurance that ho should adopt tho view that they never more than agreed to affirm the principle that a change in the constitution was necessary. He could not accept the amendment as a substitution to the motion for a, second Tending, but would ftccept it as an amendment on tho motion to go into Committee. The Hon. Mr. SAMUEL moved tho adjournment to consider the matter, before any discussion took place. HON, C. H. MILLS. AN IMPROVEMENT.—CAItE NEEDED. The Speaker resumed the Chair at 8 p.m. . Tho Hon. C. H. MILLS' congratulated the Leader of the Council on tlio way in which he had introduced the Legislative Council. Bill. The amendment before the Council seemed to mean: Let them' gain all the information they could before they said "Yes" or "No" to the Bill. Last year wheivthc Bill was before the Council he advised making haste Slowly, and said the Bill was of a, national character, and not parochial. He said they wene attempting to undermine the glorious constitution under which they had for long progressed. They should give the matter every care and attention, for one false step, and where weTe they? The Bill at present before the Council was an improvement on the one of last year, but the Council had to he very suro that "whatever they did was for the benefit of tho .whole Dominion. The question was not a. question of today. It had extended over 50 years, and they wcro in the same position to-day as they were when they started. The Bill provided that they should have one small .constituency and one large one. He said so suiro as they went, to the people tho man who came into the Council would represent , four times as many people as membsrs in the Lower House, ana members in tho Council would be as much hound, to their constituents as members in the House, and the constituents would make them feel it. Tho party element would get into tho Cou.ucil four times as great as in the House of Representatives. And could they blame the people? 'Menwj bers would have to go round and see their constituents, and there would he no reason for any member passing over any request made by them. What was tho good of having a duplication of Chambers? There had to be some difference in franchise. They wanted a different class of men in the Council, men of long experience and standing. The Hon. Mr. Bell: Don't you want experience in the Lower House ? Tho Hon. Mr. Mills, continuing, said that they did-not want to in.brodu.ee party into the Council. In his opinion tho members had to check hasty legislation. The olnss of men who were needed in the Council would not go before constituents. The public elected eighty members as their representatives, and there was no reason whv those representatives could not elect members to fill any vacancies in the Council. If he thought' the elective system was tho best ho would vote for it, but he did not think tho public would be long satisfied with it.. In two years ho believed they would bo' better able to learn a lesson from Australia than they could to-day.. He would like to see the Chamber kept in its true lines, and kept in a most impartial man* nor. Continuing, tho Hon. Mr. Hills said that he had come to the conclusion that the desire for change was not widely felt. Before such a change was asked for the peoplo should know more about what the change would mean. If he recognised that the chango was the universal desire he would vote for it, notwithstanding his own views. Thero had been some talk round about the wharves, etc., but nothing to warrant such a constitutional change.

. THE HON. JOHN RIGG.. ■ IN FAVOUR OP NOMINATION. The Hon. JOHN liIGG thought- there was a tone about the debato which seemed to indicate it was "fizzling out." Tho most eloquent and reasoned speech was that of the Hou. Mr. Sinclair, but yet lio found fault with it. It was liko the apple, large and rosy, but when they broke it open they found the codlin moth. One suggestion for a partly nominative and partly elective Council seemed to him to anticipate a certain set of circumstances wliich might not arise, and to overlook tho conditions they were facing to-day. To adopt such a proposal would give the people greater reason than tl'cy had before for calling for reform ot' tho Legislative Council. Regarding tho Bill, it was one he could vote for if he was in favour of tho elective principle. It was couched in a simple literary sty.lo, which. should, be a modol to tho draughtsmen in the future. There was an amendment to (send the Bill to a Setleot Committee. He would vote against tho Bill being read a second time, as 110 would rate against the Bill all tho time, but if it got to Committee lie would do all ho could to make it a workable measure. (Hciu', hear.)- The- spealae.r referred to tho 24 members who voted Inst session for tho second reading of tho.Bill, and declared themselves in favour of the elective principle. Later, eleven of the honourable gentlemen voted for the nominative'sysfcem of three years. Those" genitlemeai were in an' unonviablo position. If the Bill went to a special committee thoso members would mot bo able to extricato themselves. A momber: They have explained thorneel ves already. The Hon. J. Rigg: Explanations! Wo havo had explanations, wit as time pcies on they will realise that moro explanations • are necessary. Tho. Hon. Mr. Rigg summarised his remarks of last year. He favoured nomination, beoauso 110 believed tho day would como when the Labour party would favour this. Ho did not think the nominative system had been properly explain*ed. The position at tho present time was peon'liar. •If they rejected this Bill it would be reconsidered by a different Council next year. In the meant.imo tlio Government would appoint members to the vacancies which occurred.' The point was that th'r-rc were a large batch of appointments falling 111 ait one timo. Tho nominative system was not perfect, but he did not see how they could get anything totter.

"That a Committee be -appointed to itako into consideration tho circum"'Ftances, powers, and procedure of tho •, Council with a,vi'ew to suggesting any .-amendments or alterations in tlie con- ■:; stitution of the Council or otherwise. ' .-as such Committee mny deem oxpedi'/■ent, and have power to call for pcr- ; sons and papers, and report in three /; weeks,.* such Committee,to consist of 1 nino persons, to bo selected as the Council may by resolution direct." The wording of this, has been very carefully considered,- said-Mr- Samuel, and he Miad left 'it' for! a'.subseqiteut'motion ;hs .to Ihow tho Committeo should'bo constituted, jwhether by ballot or not, and so that they idhpuld ndi rush into action that miirht 1 imilitato against'tho motion. t The meaning of his motion was to consider whether .any alteration was necessary, and if so, what alteration? Ho felt that after coneider.ition by such a Committeo it would /"be seen that they honestly endeavoured Ito do their duty by tho country. (Apfplause.) Tho mombcrs of the Committeo (Should consider tho Bill with an, open ' Blind, as far as possible.

A FITTING STEP. KON. J. D. ORMOND'S VIEWS. Tlie Hon. J. D. ORMOND said he th'iu"lit the last speaker had brought I'ome to them that in tho past great caution had been exercised, and it had been choivn that the fullest appeal to the electors of the colony had been necessary. (Hear, hear.) Ho agreed to second the amendment, for he believed that it was tho titling step to take at this juncture. A motion, moved by him last session, was to postpone the matter lor another session, with a view of getting the fullest public opinion. Ho feared tho outcome had been a failnre in that respect, l'he idea in his mind was that tho members of tho -other House would have taken the opportunity of discussing this matter with tlieir constituents. Tho references had jjceii vory meagre. Tlio outcome wits tluifc

THE HON W. C, F. CARNCROSS. A MENDMEXT 8 U PPOKTET). Tho Hon. \V. C. J'. CAItXCIiOSS said he was propa'red t-> the nmendiiK a-t liis earnest support in tho hop-* (hit innio good wc-u'd . 'If the. country realised they were on tho

verge of making the greatest conntitution.il change it would not lie- l'c-cxivM with the quietude at presmt evinced. Tho second reading last year, the speaker considered, was <jlll y moved out of rospect to the Leader. After tlio aniradment was moved that day a hasty adjournment was moved to consider it. Jlauv who voted for that second reading did it only, as ho had said, out of re-poct to the Loader. It was mot fa.ii; that the;-*? gentlemen should be pilloried. The speaker felt they oould kill the Bill that night. It would ho much better if the Leader would allow the B,;ll to go to tho committee for con?ideratic.n. The honourable gentleman had everything to fain by accepting the nmcndnif.nt, which had been moved in no spirit of hostility. The Hon. C. M. Lulce, at 9.40 p.m., moved the adjournment of the debate. _ Tin? Council adjourned till 11 a.m. today to consider an Imprest Supply Bill.