PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1809, 23 July 1913, Page 8

PARLIAMENT IN SESSION

COUNCIL REFORM.

POLICE FORCE AND ITS POWERS.

PENSIONS LAW.

IMPORTANT EXTENSIONS OUTLINED.

, The Legislative Council met at 2.30 p.m. yesterday.... The Hon. Dr. COLLINS moved: "That this Council respectfully recommends tho Government to make inquiries from the J». T ew South. Wales Government as to .the benefits or otherwise accruing to public health since, and by reason of, the introduction of the Prisoners' Detention Act, 1908, w|th a view, if the Act has proved of value, to introducing similar legislation in New Zealand." The Act, he explained, provided for tho detention of prisoners suffering from venereal disease until they were free from contagion, after the term of their sentence had expired. The Hon. W. P. Carncross seconded the motion. The Hon..H. D. BELL said the Government would have great plcnsuro in making tho suggested inquiries. The motion was carried. LEAVE OF ABSENCE. Leave of absence for ono month was granted to the Hon. T. T. Duncan, owing to illness. Four days' leave, also owing to indisposition, was granted to the Hon. W. M'Cardle. A PRIVATE BILL. The Hon. 0. SAMUEL moved the second reading of the M'Dougall Trust Estate Bill. / Ho explained why the Bill was desirable, and stated that all the beneficiaries under the trust asked for it. The Bill wa3 read a second time. THE REFORM BILL.. INTRODUCED BY HON. H. D. BELL. The Hon. H. D. BELL moved tlio second reading of the Legislative Council Bill. It would be his aim, he said, not to repeat what he'had said in introducing the Bill of last yeai\ to which the Bill of this year was similar in principle, though differing in a few details. The provision for the forfeiture of a deposit paid by a candidate had, he remarked, been deleted, but the Government had decided that some such provision was"neces- | sary, and one would be submitted in committee. Speaking generally on the principle of the Bill, he said it was by no means new. At first the Council had. been elected by Provincial Councils, and after it bbcame nominative several times, the proposal to make the House elective was raised. At the last election, however, both parties in the House of Representatives had gone to the hustings advocating an electivo Second Chamber. The Ward Government had put forward a local government refferm scheme, under which provincial councils were to be established, and following on tho setting up of these councils, "radical changes" in the method of electing ■ members of the, Tipper House were promised. The party which' supportedthe present Government had made it quite clear in the election campaign that they stood for a'Second Chamber elected on a popular franchise. Necessarily, however, the election would have to he by larger electorates, because it would be plainly absurd to have it elected on the same basis exactly as the House of Representatives.

, "Affirming the Principle." The Council now w{is virtually the same Assembly, as last year,' with- the addition of five honourable gentlemen. The.Council last .yeaf .rejected. the Bill, but affirmed the principle of the Bill by !J1 votes to 8, and the principle affirmed was tho same in all essentials as that of the. Bill'of this year. The Council had, instead of proceeding to deal with, the' Bill in decided,y that while the Council affirmed tho principle of the Bill, it was not wise to proceed with the Bill until next session. Mr.' Jonkinson:. 'i'ho mistake was made in .the use of. the word, "session.". The word "Parliament" was intended.' Mr. Bell said with emphasis that no mistake of the sort had been made. The resolution had .been.,• drafted by. the opponents of the. Bill, and the point raised ty. Mr. Jenkinson had been cleared of all possible confusion by tho Hon. J.' D. OrHiiond.' It had been said that tho Government was not in earnest about this Bill. Mr. Jones: Hear, hear! (repeatedly). Mr. Bell: Now the "Hear, hear" comes from tlifi quarter where I expected it. Sir, when honourable gentlemen put their names and their votes to a statement I. am prepared to accept what they say and to act upon it, and, sir, I take tho 'reeponsibility of the Bill being introduced in this Council. Hp took the responsibility, he said, because it seemed reasonable to him that honourable gentlemen who had affirmed the principle of the Bill, and asked for a postponement, should have legislation affecting : the constitution nf their. Chamber: introduced : -in. that Chamber."'"

The Government is Serious. it had been suggested that "because the Bill had not been introduced in the House of Representatives, the Government were, not serious in regard to tho Bill. If the Council had finally rejected the Bill tho Government would havo put the Bill before the other House, and it would have been sent on to tho Council from another place. It had been said that tho Government wcro introducing the Bill in tho Council for the purpose of delay. Ho said emphatically that this was not the object of the Government. It had been suggested in tho. Council last year by Mr. Samuel that tho Bill was not approved by a majority of members of the representative Chamber. In reply to that suggestion, ho would remind honourable gentlemen that after theiCouncil rejected t.ho Bill of last year a series of resolutions embodying the essentinl points of tho Bill were carried, some unanimously and some by,a majority of 40 to 17 by the {House. The Council had therefore now proof tlint approved the Bill. Mr. Samuel: I said the Bill would not pass the House, nor would it. Mr. Bell: Either the, House would pass tho Bill.embodying tho principles it had affirmed by resolution, or it would stultify itself. He went on to refer to other of the more recent Acts setting up constitutions of British dependencies, the most, recent of which was the Irish Hqino Rule Bill, which, he said, was tho latest effort of legislative genius in Great Britain. In that Bill tho Upper House or Senato was to bo elected by tho provinces as constituencies, and' by proportional representation. It was really remarkable that the Council had been debating a Bill almost similar while tho Imperial Parliament was debating tho Irish Act. It had been said last year that tho Council ought to havo, if it were elected, the same rights in regard to control of tho treasury as the Lower House. But there was no precedent for this in any country in which there was a Second Chamber elected by some secondary method. The reason was obvious: In any Parlia-' mont thero could bo only one Honso which' oould determine the existence or non-existence of Ministries, and this power, wliich involved control of the purse, was always given to the House going most regqJitTly to- the country lie discussed tho changes in tho Bill prassnted this year, notably the provisions for a deadlock, and tho subdivision of \'ow Zealand into four electorates. It might be necessary to make changes in the suggested boundaries of the North Island electorates. ' . ■ Mr. Jenkinson: Do you propose to introduce that in your Bill of; next year? Mr. Hell: I propose to move it when the Council goes into Gommiltfft tin's o:i tiio Bill—(hear, hear, and laugnter) —ns the resolution of honourable members invited mc to sunnose they would.

An lion, member: They won't. Mr. Bell said that'if the Coli.ncil did not go into Committee ho could not help it. He could only suppose that the Council would act as the terms of their resolution had indicated that they would. Pledges and Honour. Mr. Bell replied then to the speech on the proposals of the Bill made by the Hou. 0. Samuel' in the Address-in-Reply debate. Mr. Samuel had said that a Government need not act upon a pledge given at tho hustings; even if it were a principle upon which they claimed to be returned and to hold office. He (Mr. Bell) entirely differed from ths hon. gentleman. If a Government changed its opinion in tho.meantime, it would not of course act upon the pledge, but this Government had .not changcd its opinion. Ho further held that if a Government were so to change its opinions, the members of it should resign their portfolios for that reason. Ironical laughter from, Mr. Samuel. Mr. Bell: I note that this causes tho hon, gentleman some amusement, but let mo tell him that the present Goverment would resign under those circumstances. He spoke next of Mr. Samuel's statement that; under the proportional representation system it would be impossible to preserve the country quota. But what was the object of the country quota? Was it not to prevent an undue representation from belli" given to" the towns? And in the big electorates tho country would swamp the towns. In actual fact, tho Government expected a cry of protest not from the country, but from the towns. "Deal with the Bill." In conclusion, he said the Bill represented a very great deal of careful thought, ajid was in its essenco the same as the Bill of last year. He reminded the Council that the tenuire of the Council of this year was not the same as that of the Council of last year. The Bill provided that the elective element should not outweigh the nominated element until after the expiry of six years. He asked, he begged, his • hon. friends to deal with the Bill this year, and not' to place the Government in the position they would be placed in if the Council refused to deal with it. Let the Council say what, it wanted. He did'not complain that honourable gentlemen last year had voted to postpone the Bill, but he asked them this year to deal with the Bill, and to say what they wanted or what they were willing to accept. He .did not say tho Government would necessarily grant what the Council desired, but the Council should let the Government know what their declaration of last year meant. Was there a man in the Council who did not know that if the Government were in earnest tlile Bill must pass? And,he said the Government was in' earnest. If the Government-held office the Bill was going to be made law. This was another answer to the statement that the Government was playing with the question. They were nottrifling with it, nor did they mean' to trifle with it. He was not saying th-at« this should weigh with tlio Council, but lie .was saying it in -order to make his position' clear, and to make clear the sinT, cerity of the', invitation to the present Council to state definitely and 'in the form of legislation what the present Council at the present tiino desired. On the other hand, he could say that the Government ■would in all that was possible, and to a very wide extent, endeavour to meet the Council. Above all, lie appealed l to the Council to come to a deoision on the Bill. The debate was adjotirned on the motion of the Hon. ,T. R. Sinclair. -' !£he Council rose at 4.35 p.m.