WESTPORT HARBOUR.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1799, 11 July 1913, Page 6

WESTPORT HARBOUR.

; ■ COMMITTEE SET UP. . PECULIAR ATTITUDE OF THE OPPOSITION. , \ The kok" F. M.' B. FJSHER (Minister for Marine) was given leave by the House to move without notice "That a.committee bo'set iy> to'report upon the action- of tho Minister tor Marine in appointing Mr. Giilen and Mr. Simpson to be members of tho Westport Harbour Board, the : committee -•)»_ consist of Messrs. Atmore, Colvin, Laurenson, Isitt, Scott, Lee, E. F. Bollard, Bradney, Statham, and the mover." Mr. J. COLVIN (Bullerj said the Minister had led him to believe wrongly j that the committee was to inquire into the conduct ,of the Westport Harbour Board, but this committee was not to dothat, and he'did not want to be on it. He wanted to have a committee to inquire whether, theofficera of the board who had been dismissed were worthy of their positions, and whether the accounts of- the ■board were in order. That was the inquiry promised thie- night before. For his'pait he did not want to be on the committee; he wished to be at the committee to defend the Westport Harbour Board. .

; Mr. Fisher said the committee which be proposed now had nothing to do with the commission, to be set up to investigate the affairs of " the - Westport Harbour Board. But it had been alleged that there were gross improprieties in. liis action in appointing 'two members' to the Westport Harbour Board, and he wanted the House to clear this matter up. The-other commission of inquiry would be set up later. Mr.. Colvin: I make no charge that I way. I don't wont you to be tried. You can try yourself. He went on to say that lie wanted the affairs , of the Westjort Harbour Board..to be. investigated by a committee of the House. His desire was to'do.fair, piny and justice to the officers dismissed bythe board after having been several' years in: the 1 service,. y : Mr. RshetV You Mvill; get the Commission, all right. ' ' • Mr. Colvin: What is the personnel of the committee you are going to set up v to inquire into tho Harbour Board ? Mr. Fisher: You will get that in duo course. \ . 3lr; Colvin repeated that ho did not Want to sit on -tne committee..

Mr. Fisher: I think members of tho House will'agree' that certain _ charges ■wero made Against me, and I insist upon going on trial. Mr. M'Callum: With yourself as judge.' Mr. Fisher: I am not a judge. Mr. M'Callum: You are on the committee.

• MtV Fisher: The honourable gentlemen making the charges are also oil the committee. He added .that it was a fair thing ' that these, charges should be in-, vestagated, and he... was surprised that there should bo any objection raised to (the inquiry now, by those who /made tho charges. . ~ Mr. G: WITTY- (Eiccarton) ■ objected, to the-Government having, ft majority if Bixv.to four on the oommittee,, and' he objected-also-to-some of those interested ibeing on the committee.,. .... Mr. H. ATMORE (Nelson) said tho Minister had'-taunted ■ him- with not being '.willing to have the committee; .set, /up. But he (Mr. Atmore) did not take' back a word Of what he had said, and the Minister must not think that he was 'backing down, ~ .

Mr. "Fisher:. You . are .'backing down every inch.- : ' ■ Mi-. Atmore: It is not the kind of backing jdown..that will suit. you. Mr. 'At, more "added that Kewould prove his charges against -the man Simpson. ■Ho concluded by saying that he did not iivish to ait on the committee. Ho wanted merely to provo tho truth of his assertions.

Mr. T. M. TVILFORD (Hutt),siiid it: seemed to liim could'be' summed up in this way: The 'member'for Nelso'i said that o certain man hadl been, appointed to the board who had a bad character; if the Minister denied ttot, 'Mt. Atmore owed him an apology; if the Minister did not deny it, then it was a bad appointment, What, then, was tho committee going to investigate?' Ho thought the, Minister, by setting up this inquiry, was. trying to side-track the real charges mado by ill-. .Colvin. . ...' Mr. T. JI. DA VET (Christchurch East) jaid tho Minister had' stated that ho Would set up any 'committee Mr. Colvin liked. Belated Objections.'- —• • fThe Hon. JAS. ALLEN, said that ho (understood that the House had already given permission lor this -motionto be put that day.' Members had been given (ill opportunity' of objecting when Mr. Speaker asked leave to put the motion without notice. . Those who objected to the motion being put, that day •were somewhat belated.'\ The..-, only, objection that he had heaid to the composition of the committee .'was. that it included , Mr. CoLvin, Mr. Fisher, and Mr. Atrnore. Ho liaxl seen committees set up dozens of times ; to investigate charges reflecting on tho Government, which included prominent members of tho Ministry. Oppositionists: That does not make it Tight. This, is a square deal' Ministry. Mr. Allen: I know that two blacks don't make a. white. I want to know what is in tho miuds of 'tho other side. Some .of them state that there is no charge against the Minister for Marine. Mr. Colvin: I said there was no charge 011 that point. Mr. Allen:, Then why should not tho Minister sit on the. committee? Mr. Colvin repeated that he-would not sit on the committee. Mr. Allen said that the Minister had already promised Mr. Colvin that a Commission would bo set up to inquire into the affairs 'of the Westport Harbour Board. He did not know whether the person appointed had a bad charaoter or not, but he did know that the Minister had no idea that he had other than a good charaoter. ■ ' ■ . Mr. Forbes: Wo accept that.

Mr. Allen: You did not accept' that yesterday. You made insinuations that have gone out to the public, and every member who'has a sense of justice will agree that the matter should be cleared

up. Mr. W. J; DICKIE (Sehvyn) said that he resented' the imputation cast by the Minister. Ho considered that neither accused nor accuser should bo on the committee. ,

Mi\ Colvin: I stated distinctly, and the Minister admitted it, th(it I did not know about the man's character until . after ho was appointed. Therefore, I could not accuse bim of making a wrong appointment. in that rcsjject.

Mr. Allen: Well, then, you are not the accuser. Mr. Colvin at a Loss. Mr. Colvin: Who is the accuser? Mr. Allen: I don't know. Mr. Atmore: The Minister for Finance says that insinuations were made. Mr. Allen: So they were. Mr. Atmoro said he had made a direct charge, which could be cleared'up by perusal of the Magistrate's Court records at. Westport. Mr.' Allen: What is your charge? Mr. Atmore: It was an improper appointment, made by the Minister for Marine, of a man who has been six or seven times convicted of various offences, to one of the most important Harbour Boards in the colony. It is a direct charge and I object to its being called an insinuation. '.The Minister for Justice can find out all about it in a few minutes without the intervention of any whitewashing committeo consisting of a majority' of Government members. Mr. J. A. HAINAN (Invercargill) said that the matter was very simple. The Minister for Marine had said that if, on inquiry, ho found tho statements made against this man's character to be correct, ho would, ask him to retire. What was tho • object of going on with the inquiry? Mr. Hanan suggested that the Minister for Marine had stated a charge against himself in an attempt to place himself on a pedestal. Mr. Fisher: You have fallen in up to your neck. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) said that tho charge made against the Minister for Marine was an improper appointment. •_ Mr. FISHER:.It was a charge of two improper appointments.' He quoted from his Hansard proof of the previous evening showing that he bad offered to refer the questions if the dismissal of employees of the Westport Harbour ,Board, and tho matter of the appointments, to a committee of the House. Mr. Colvin had said: "I accept that offer." Now the honourable gentleman refused it. The Obvious Inference. The Hon. A. L. HBRDMAN said that statements had been made in the House, not only about the character of this man, but suggesting that tho Minister' Jor Marine knew when he appointed the man to the Westport Harbour Board that he. had been guilty of offences. This was made perfectly clear by; statements published in the local Opposition paper about the Opposition charges. Referring to the statement made in the House by the member for Nelson, this _paper said : "This is a serious charge." Mr. Russell asked whether tho honourable gentleman was in, order in reading an article dealing with the procedure of the House. ,■

Mr. Nosworthy; You don't like it?Mr. SPEAKER ruled that tho opinion of a newspaper must not bo quoted if it reflected upon Parliament or upon any members of tne House.

Mr. Herdman said that he had quoted tho newspaper with intent to .show that the impression that went out to the public, and was intended to go out to the public, ty' the member for Kelson, was that the Minister had appointed this man knowing that he had committed "all these heinous crimes."

After some discussion on a point' of order raised by Mr. Atm Ore, who asked whether the Minister was in order in imputing .motives, , , , Mr. Herdman said that what he wished to convey to the Houso was that it was apparent from the article in. tho local paper that the impression'' got abroad that the Minister for Marine knew that this man had been guilty of these various o(fences. The paper said: "This is a serious charge " Mr. .Russell: Is the hon. gentleman in order in quoting from a newspaper statements with regard to the proceedings of this House?

Mr. SPEAKER ruled that the article must not be quoted. Mr. Atmore: Would I be in order in sending a book on the Standing Orders- to the hon. gentleman (Mr. Herdman)? Mr. Herdman: 'One really' hardly knows how to deal with tiiie conduct of tho hon. gentleman from Nelson; he believes that he can conduct himself like a stupid schoolboy. Ho is an irresponsible person who does not know what'proper decency is in debate. '

.Mr. Wilford asked that the Minister should withdraw the remark, "That he does not know how to behave himself.with decency."

Mr. Herdman said that what he had said was that, from his conduct in. tho Chamber, the hon. gentleman did not seem to know how to conduct himself with.proper decency in debate. Mr. SPEAKER directed that the Temark should be withdrawn, and the Minister withdrew it.

There could be 110 question, .Mr. Hcnlmsui continued, that a committee sltould be 6et up, in accordance' with the suggestion of the Minister for Marine, to investigate this matter.' TTndoubtedly some'; sort, of charge had been made against his administration. There was no charge against' his administration if he had appointed this man unwittingly, but if the inference could be drawn,from any statement made in the House that he made the appointment knowing that a, person appoiuted had been guilty of scandalous conduct, then it was clear that a committee should be appointed. Any Minister might make mistakes. A Minister might even unwittingly appoint tho member for Nelson to some public post. --Mr. I. M. ISITT (Chiistchurch North) said that ho was quite willing to sit 01 the committee, but contended that ther was no imputation that the Minister fo Marine had bean awaro of the characte of the man whom he was appointing. Government members: Why doesn't th member for Nelson deny it?

Mi\ G." W * iVuSSELL (Avon) said that lie Minister could not expect the House, o appoint him to a committee -which was :o inquire into his own actions. Such a ching was unprecedented. It was not suggested that the Minister had been nware of the character of tho man whom he had appointed. ■ Mr. Harris: What does the member for Nolsoa say about it? Mr. Itussell contended that it was absolutely absurd that the Minister fhould vote upon his own actions. The committee as-propok:d would be a farce.

Mr. Atmore's Position. Mr. ATMORE read the last lines of his Hansard proof of the previous evening, as follows:—"X am not making an ex porta statement. It is an'absolute matter of faot. What I want to know is: Will the honourable gentleman take steps to remove this man from the board if he finds that What I say is absolutely correct?" Mr. Guthrie: What did you say before that? . Mr. Atmore: 1 made a direct charge that the man was not fit for the position that he waa put in by the Minister for Marine. . „ . . „ A Government member: Knowingly? Mr Atmore: The Minister for Marine then said that he knew nothing about it and that he would not remove the man on the representations of the member for Nelson. I never stated that the Minister for Marine knew the character of the man whom ho liad appointed. Mr. Guthrio: You left an impression in our minds thiit you did. Government members (to Jfr. Armoro): Will you deny itf Mr. D. H. GUTHRIE (Oroua) said that much discussion would be saved if the lion, member for Nelson would slate that he did not intend to "impute any improper motive to the Minister for Marine. It appeared to him that Mr. Atmore was petting round the question and would not answer it either in the negative or affirmative.

[ Mr. Atmore: If you expect hid to reply row to a question that ought to bo put before a committee, theii you make a big mistake. Everything I said stands. If he finds my charge correct will ho removo tlio limn from the board? No committee is required for that. Mr. E. M'CALLUM (Wairnu) said that the charge against tho Minister for Mali ne was that ho had removed from tlio Westport Harbour Board two men who were of tho member for Buller's "colour" to put on two of his own "colour" in order to interfere with the board's staff. He wanted to help the Minister for Marino to clear himself of this charge. Ho had a kindly feeling for tho Minister for Marine. Mr. M'Callum asked tho Minister to widen tho scope of tho committee. What he wanted to know was why two members of the Westport Harbour Board were removed from office 50 days before their lime.

Mr. G. V,. FORBES (Huruniii) objected to tho Minister for Marine being on the committee.

Mr. Fisher: Is he on trial? Mr. Forbes: "He Bays so in his motion." Tho motion, said Mr. Forbes, was for a committee to inquire into and report upon the action of tie Minister for Marine. Mr. Forbes said that the question had just been suggested as to whether the Minister for Marine, as a member of tho committee, could refuse to givo evidence before that committee. The SPEAKER: He would be in the same position as any other member of that committeo.

Mr. Forbes: Then he has a right to refuse?

The SPEAKER: What any other member of the committee can do, he can do. Mr. Forbes: He then has a right to shelter behind that fact? Mr. Wilford: If a member accuses himself of an. offence, and then 'causes to be set up a committer to inquire into tho accusation, and ho sits on the committee himself as a juryman, can lie find himself not guilty of the offence ho has charged himself with? (Laughter.) The SPEAKER (reading): If a member of the committee refuses to give evidence before that committee then tho House shall give instructions as to the courso to be pursued. Mr. Forbes: If the Minister for Marino is sincere 'in his desire to clear up this matter, he should not put himself on this committee. A member: What about Sir Joseph Ward? Mr. Forbes: Sir Joseph Ward was a member of the Public Accounts Committee, but he was not appointed there by himself. Sir Joseph Ward was not on his trial. A member: You eaid he was. Labour Representation Wanted. Mr. W. A. VEITCH (Wauganui) expressed the opinion that neither the accused nor the accuser should be on'the committee. Both should be substituted by (say) Messrs. A. H. Hindmarsh (Wellington South) hnd' Robertson (Otaki), both of whom were disinterested. Mr. FISHER, replying to members of the Opposition, said that he had thought that Messrs. Colvin and Atmore should be put on the committee from the one side of the House and himself from the other side. Opposition members: Oh! Oh! Mr. Fisher: I thought it a reasonable proposal. It's fair. Whether the member for' Nelson, or the member for Buller intended it or not, the impression has been conveyed to the public that I appointed a man to tho Westport Harbour Board knowing him ■to have been convicted of several offences. A member: And was so intended. Mr. Fisher: That is so.. And I think it was so intended,' from the action of tho member for Nelson in the House this afternoon, when ho' would not state that he did hot intend it.

Continuing, M,r. Fisher said that as far as the committee was concerned, ho would like to point out that in 1908 ho made a charge against tho then Government regarding tho Woodward Street purchase. ■ The charge was against tho Land Department, and was referred to a committee, of which the Minister for Lands was a member. Last year the Hine Committee was set up, and was not Sir Joseph Ward a member of it? It had practically been suggested from the Opposition sido that if a charge was made against a Government no member of that Government should sit on the committee of inquiry. The position was ludicrous. Ho wanted this, matter cleared up. Now that the members on the other side of the House had an opportunity of holding an inquiry,' of getting the file of tho Westport Harbour- Board, of finding out who appointed this board, and previous boards, they objected. .

Mr.Hanan: What is the charge? .' Mr. Fisher said that the fact was that the Opposition did not expect that he would take this action.

Mr. Hanan (for about tho sixth time): What is the charge? Mr. Fisher said that the Opposition had been disorganised through his action. Mr. M'Callum had asked why he (the Minister) had put two members of tho Westport Harbour Board out of office. Mr. Fisher read last year's statute to tho effect that two members 'of the board should retire, and that the members could decide by lot-which two. ' Now, the members refused to decide by lot. There was a direction of Parliament that two should retire, so he had to retire them by Gazette notice. He now wanted the whole matter cleared up—the inference, or imputation, or innuendo, which had been set adrift through Opposition members of the House and the Opposition press of the country. An interjection from the Opposition side.. ,

Mr. Fisher: You may back down now you are up against it. There are certain members and journals which have conveyed to the public the impression that I have knowingly appointed to the Westport Hairbour Board a man unfitted for the position. 'Mr. Veitch: May I ask the' Minister whether he is going to give the Labour section representation on the committee?

Hon. Mr. Fisher: No. I don't propose to alter tho motion before the House.

Mr._ Atmore: May I ask that my name be withdrawn (from tho committee), as 'I shall attend in the position of an accuser.

The. Hon. I?. M'Kenzie (Motueka) suggested that the Hon. J. A. Millar should be put on the committee.

The motion. was then put. Tho Opposition challenged a division, but at tho second call the motion was curried on the voices.

Mr. E. M'CALLUM (Wairau), just before the House adjourned last night, sought to give notice of an addition to the Hon. F. M. B. Fisher's motion, passed in the afternoon, extending the scopo of tho inquiry to cover tho circumstances attending tho recent removal of two members from the Westport Harbour Board. The Prime Minister: Has the hon. member obtained the consent of thi Minister for Marino?

Mr. M'Callum: Yes. I havo seen the Minister for Marine, and arranged it. The Prime Minister: I think you had better give' notice to-morrow, and then wo will see what you are doing. Mr. D. H. Guthrie (Orona): Mr. Fisher has asked me, in lug absence, to object to this motion. |

Mr. M'Callum: I wish to explain, in justice to myself, that I understood from Mr. Fisher that ho would not object.