ADDRESS-IN-REPLY.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1793, 4 July 1913, Page 8

ADDRESS-IN-REPLY.

DEBATE RESUMED. PUBLIC WORKS AFFAIRS. The Address-in-Eeply debate wag resnm-. cd at 3.55 p.m. The Hon. W. FRASER (Minister for Public Works) disclaimed any intention of making a "public works" specch. He, had risen as an act of.courtesy to the Hon. gentleman who had preceded him in that office and because ho wished to correct impressions which had beon industriously circulated during tho past six or eight months. Mr. Macdonald had said that it was not only on his (tho Opposition) ride of the House that there was dissatisfaction with the administration of public works. It should not lie in Mr. Maodonald's mouth to say very much on tho subject. (Hear, hear.) Ho thought that it was very ungenerous and certainly very ungrateful of Air. Macdonald to make such a remark. Mr. Fraser went on to quote the expenditure upon railways in the Bay of Plenty district, showing that in a number of cases the expenditure had largely oxceeded the authority. He had not treated the lion, gentleman badly and did not think it' lay with him to say that the Department had been badly administered so far as his district was concerned at any rnto. Any attempt to sow dissension amongst Government members would end in failure. Mr. Macdonald: I am quite aware of that. Mr. Fraser vigorously denied an allegation by Mr. Wilford that hp had "been very doleful." What he had done was to tell tho peopie'tho truth. To adopt another course would, perhaps, be described as very gleeful, nc had declined to incur liabilities or authorise expenditure until he knew that the money was at his command. This was the course that any pmdent man would have taken nnd ho felt sure that the country was at his back in tho matter. It was easy for critics to bo wise after the event. He would leave Mr. Allen- tn defend himself, but m> one on the other side would make any political capital out of attempts to doDreciato tts great sorvics .which Sir..

Allen had rendered- lo the country by his financial, operations in Loudon. Ho did not intend lo forecast his intentions for the coming year. Members must possess their souls in patience and wait for the Public Works Estimate*. He had himself been dissatisfied with the administration of the Public Works - Department for ninny years past, and. improvements would have to bo effected. One of tlio first things that had occurred to him was that there should be more inspection and he hnd provided for that. In future monthly reports would be sent in to tho Minister through the Engineer-in-Chief showing how were progressing. One of his objects in practising ooonomies where possible during the summer had keep work in hand for the winter months. Some additional men had been put on lately, but the number of rpphcations so far had not been large. In instituting the small contract system, tho Public Works Department was prepared to supply men who were without means with tools, tents, implements, etc., to be paid for later on. No deposit of any importance would be asked for. The aim was to make the contracts available to any deserving workmen, whether they had means or not. vMr. Fraser remarked m concluding that, at that early stage in the debate, ho did not wish to further extend his speech. He had not on any occasion stated that he had not monev to carry on works which lie had carried out last y&ar, although he had exercised caution in the way in which they were authorised. He had declined to promise to undertake works for the incoming year until he knew how much money was available. Who could blama him for this?

s THE MEMBER FOR AVON. A FAULT-FINDING CRITIC. ' Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said that | the speeches of the mover and seconder in the Address-in-Reply were amongst ■ tlie best he. had ever heard on such an occasion. He went on to contend that ' enormous remissions had been effected in the cost of living during the last ten. 1 or twelve years. The difficulty now was ' to identify the taxes which were burdensome. The present Government had still to acquire the confidence of the country. At the polls the Government had been in a minority of IH.OOO. Ho was glad that the Prime Minister recognised the . worth of what he was saying. The Prime Minister: I do not! Mr. Russell went on, amidst laughter from the Government benches, to predict the defeat of the Government at the next election. He insisted that the Government had broken every pledge that it had made. (Renewed laughter.) There was no policy in the Governor's Speech, and the Government had mo policy. Mr. Wilson: They stole yours! Mr. Russell: Yes, the member for Taumarunui is correct. They have - taken over the Liberal policy, and administered it to the best of their ability. 'Mr. Russell went on to attack the Government for its failure to repeal the second ballot. The great defect of the Speech was the absence of any reference to electoral reform in application to the Lower House. The Government had not made up its mind on the subject. ,He also blamed the Government for delay in introducing a Local Government Bill. The Mackenzie Government, though only in office for three ami a half months, convened a conference of local bodies and prepared a Bill which, according to the Minister for Finance, contained a number of good points. The Government had that Bill, and -lad had a year in office, but from the Speech it appeared that the Government proposed only tinkering amendments to the Statutes affecting local bodies. They had thus signally failed to keep the pledges on which they were elected. There was no reference in the Speech to the Public Service Commission. Were Ministers already asframed of it? The Public Service to-day was alarmed and irritated to an unprecedented degree. Messrs. Robertson and Triggs were no doubt ablo men, but their experience was limited. The appointment of Mr. Triggs, who had shaken the dust of New Zealand' off Ms feet fourteen years ago, was an insult to the members of the Service. Already the commissioners had built up a huge staff, and there had been n scandalous extension of red tape. Probably the commissioners and their staff would cost something like .£12,000 a year. They were now advertising for, an.. spector. Had not the House understood, when the-Bill passed, that the assistantcommissioners would be. inspectors? A, classification of the Public Service was being attempted which he believed was an absolute impossibility. The Classification Board} consisting of Departmental heads, over which .he had presided ns Minister for Internal Affairs, had 1 passed a Resolution to the effect that classification of tfre Servico was an impossibility. The Government had pledged themselves to reduce taxation. Instead they.had increased the graduated land tax and now proposed to tax motor-cars. The Prime Minister: Will you vote against it? Mr. Russell said that ho was not talking abo<ut what lie would do. He went on to contend that the path of the Government was strewn with broken promises. The Government had been inconsistent in'regard to titles. The Prime Minister had spoken of Sir'Jas. Carroll as "the King's colonial-made gentleman." Yet one of his first acts had been to obtain a knighthood for a gentleman whom they all admired and respected, but who Quad never sat for a day on the Treasury benches, and had rendered no public service of a national character, Sir Walter Buchanan. .The Government, when in Opposition, had strongly condemned the Liberal party for appointing political rejects to the Upper House. Of five members whom the Government had appointed to the Council, only one was not a political reject. The Government had been grossly inconsistent in appointing five members in the Council for seven years when they had a Reform Bill in hand. The visit of the battleship New Zealand was dismissed in the Governor's Speech. with a curtness that was insulting and unpatriotic. At a banquet in Wellington, Captain.Halsey had stated that the gift of the Dreadnought had preserved the peace of Europe down to date. A member: He did not say that. Mr. Russell said that ho had. Tho Prime Minister on the same occasion had refrained' from even mentioning Sir Joseph Ward, whose statesmanship had devised the gift: He went on to blame the Hon._ Jas. Allen for speaking on behalf of New Zealand when abroad. He accused him also of taking a partisan attitudo in regard to Canadian politics. At Bruce Mr. Allen had said that in London he had met men of rank, nobility, and financial standing, and had felt tliat the people of Bruce and of tho Dominion were not unworthily represented. (Laughter.) "Such blatant egotism, such puerile conceit," said Mr. Russell, "I have never heard of in connection with the public affairs of this country." He went on to refer to Mr._ Allen's reported remarks as "braggadocio, bluster, and gasconade." Mr. Russell condemned the Government for increasing Departmental expenditure, and declared that Mr. Allen's trip to London had been an absolute and ghastly failure. South Africa and a number of Australian States had secured better terms. New Zealand was the only country that had paid four per cent, and got as little as 98. ' Mr. Russell was interrupted at 5.30 with four minutes still in hand. An Extension of Time, When (ho House resumed, Mr. P. MANDER (Mafeden) moved that Mr. Russell's timo bo extended by ten minutes. \ The PRIME MINISTER, said that this had come upon him somewhat unexpectedly, but the hon. gentleman was supplying the-Government so much good material that ho would bo glad if tho member for Avon went on for another quarter of an hour. (Laughter.) It was decided that Mr. Russell should be granted an additional fifteen minutes. Mr. Russell said that the Hon. W. Fraser had condemned short-dated debentures as "gambling in futures:" Surely, however, it was still moro unwiso to gamble on the assumption that interest would never be lower for tho next thirty years. Ho asserted that the Minister for Finance had come back, having made nr- 1 raugementq for the renewal of the four > and a half-million loan and the five-inil-lion loan. Under the Reform Government the cost of railway administration had ' increased. Government members: Increased wages. Mr. Russell declared that an unconstitutionaldelay has taken place in connection with the Givy by-election. They had de- i lnyed gazetting the vacancy while tliev ■ were angling for a candidate, and finally hail scrambled out a Gazelle-extraordin-ary on the day before Parliament nssem- i bled, in order to cover their shame. It I was a scandalous, unconstitutional, and i imoroDer that tlie people of Groyli

should be unrepresented in that Assembly for a fortnight longer than was necessary. A VIGOROUS REJOINDER, THE HON. JAS. ALLEN ON LOANS. The Hon. JAS. ALLEN congratulated Sir. Russell upon his speech, and suggested to the "Committee" on the other tsido that they should make up their minds a.< to whether or not the member for Avon was to bo Leader. He would carry out the duties of the position admirably. Mr. Allen declared that he was looking forward to hearing a long succession of such speeches as they had just heard. Regarding loans, Mr. Allen said that tho member lor Avon had made some comparisons. He wanted to know where Mr. llussell stood. Did he, as Leader of tho Opposition,, stand for short-dated loans? The point should be cleared up, so that the country might know whether the parties were divided upon this question of long or short-dated loans. Mr. Kussell made no audible reply, and Mr. Allen, taking silence for consent, announced that tne Opposition favoured short-dated as against long-dated loans. ■; (Opposition denials, and Government hear, hears.) Mr. M'Callum: When expedient. , Mr. Allen: Are you for short-dated or for long-dated loans? i Mr. Kusseli: We are not in school! 1 Mr. Allen said that tho member foi Avon was in favour ( of short-dated loans. He would speculate with the British public every two years if he could. What did these short-dated loans mean? Two of them were falling due next year, one a two-year loan and one a four-year loan One of them was for five millions. It was for four years, and cost M Bs. to £1 3s. per . cent. The loan of last year costclose upon <£5 per cent., including cost of redeeming discounts and expenses ol raising the loan. The loan of last year, including these expenses, cost Mie coun.try £i ss. 3d. per cent. The two pre vious loans were in the hands of the speculator, who was looking for another shot at the discounts, and the underwr!tiiig, and the rest of it. The loans coulil not be converted, and every time they were renewed the costs of discounts and brokerages had to be borne. SuppoEC Mr. Myers's loan could be renewed in a few years at 3J per cent., that was not its cost. The cost must include the expenses of conversion. If the Opposition were in favour of short-dated loans they favoured a policy which would load this country with loans costing five per cent. Did the hon. gentleman regret that the underwriters for the last loan made a profit ?

Mr. Russell: I regret that he got so big a profit as you gave him. Mr. Allen said that it was absolutely necessary to resort to the underwriter in order to get tho'money. _ He was very glad that the underwriter's had unloaded upon tho legitimate investor inside two months. The Opposition were in favour of Short-dated loans. Mr. Russell: Nothing of the kind. Mr. Allen said that ho did hope to sea easier financial conditions within the next few years. Since raising the .£3,000,000 loan the Government had been able to raise another ,£OOO,OOO at not less than 99J per cent., and up to ,£IOO 10s. per cent. Mr. Russell: That kills your loan. Mr. Allen said that the reason the Government had been able to do it was that the larger loan had gone off so well. It was true that South Africa and Western Australia had raised slightly cheaper loans, but the New Zealand loan was a long way the cheapest, if the additional .£600,000 was taken into account. .The Government's Policy. Mr. Allen said that he agreed that tho country was Liberal. There was a Liberal Government in office. Mr. Russell had 6aid that the Government had no mandate from the country. Had he waited for a mandate before taking office, or had the mandate of tho country kept him there? Tho lion, gentleman had said that tho Government had no policy, and that it had taken up the Liberal policy. Tho two statements were antagonistic. The lion, gentleman did not like the Public Service Commission. Mr. Russell was seeking for political power and patronage Wherever he could get it, in the hope of getting back to office. This Government had adopted a very diil'eront plan. It had divested itself of tho power of patronage. Ho hoped that Now Zealand would never becomo so degraded as to use the Public Service for political ends. He did not know why tho hon. gentleman should interpret in a narrow sense the reference to local government in, the Governor's Speech. A Local Government Bill would bo brought down which he hoped tho hon. gentlemau would support as an improvement on tho Bill he had formerly introduced himself. Did the hon. gentleman object to tho increase of <£81,000 in the graduated land tax? Mr. RusseU: Certainly not! Mr. Allen challenged Mr. Russell to say that any legislation 'or administration of this Government had induced aggregation of land. The Government had made tho provisions in the Land Act regarding limitation more stringent, and would administer them to tho letter. Mr. Allen denied that he, or any member of the Government, 1 od come into office to look into pigeon-holes, as had been suggested by Mr. Russell, but if that gentleman wanted pigtou-hole revelations let him bide his time.

Industrial Peace. Regarding industrial peace, tlio action of the Government in reference to the Waihi strike was fair and just and honourable to all concerned. There was less industrial unrest to-day than there had been a year ago. Mr, Russell, in his reference to the honour conferred _ upon Sir Walter Buchanan, had done himself no credit. Whatever the l'rime Minister had said about Sir James Carroll two blacks did not mako a white. Pew men had rendered such service to the agricultural and pastoral industries as Sir Walter Buchanan, and the honour conferred upon him had been well-earned. Right and Wrong Ways. He was sorry that the lion, gentlemhn had lowered the tone of Parliament bringing the visit of the Dreadnought into the arena of party politics, and endeavouring to make a party gain. He ami other members had disapproved not of the Dreadnought gift but of tho manner m which it was made without Parliament being consulted. Mr. Russell: That is what you have done with regard to the expeditionary f °Mr! Allen: I give that a clear, emphatic and downright denial. Mr. Russell: Give us the papers. Mr. Allen: Yes, you shall have all the papers that you want. Ho then read in e.xtenso a memorandum which he had sent, to Cabinet before departing for England. It stated that the only question regarding territorials which he wished to raise was that of the expeditionary force. The Home authorities had urged that New Zealand should say how many men it would send to other parts of the Empire in case of need. Tho men forming suchl a force must be volunteers. He recommended that he be allowed to' discuss the matter with the Home authorities on tho basis of, say, 10,000 men. The War Office, Mr.. Allen continued was fully-seized as to tho position, and absolutely nothing had yet been decided upon tho matter at all. Amended proposals were to come before the Cabinet for consideration, and when Cabinet approved them they, would be brought before the House of Representatives so that members might say whether they approved, the proposals or not. (Applause and hear, hear.) This, said Mr. Allen, was a very different proposal from that regarding the Dreadnought. He did not object to -a Dreadnought being offered, or two being offewd, to the Mother Country if she needed them, but there was aright way and a wrong way 'of doing these things. Mr. Russell had endeavoured to spread the idea that ho (Mr. Allen) had committed this country to a naval policy. As a matter of fact every one of his proposals had l been submitted to Cabinet. Ho challenged. Mr. Russell to write to Mr. Borden and Sir Wilfrid I.aurier, and ask them whether lie had engaged in a party contest in Canada. As a fact, ho had contrived to speak of naval matters in Canada without treading on the toes of either Mr. Borden or Sir Wilfrid Lauriei. They had (old him so. The Grey Election. As to tho Grey election, tho Government was charged with having deliberately delayed it. to suit its party purposes. Mr. Russell: That is my charge. Mr. Allen: I give that a most emphatic denial. The only reason for delay was that the rolls were not ready. Immediately tho rolls were ready the death tvas gazetted aad the writ was issued. Tlw_

Prime Minister would deal more fully with, tho matter when ho came to speak. Effecting Economies. Mr. Kussell had stated tluit Sir Joseph. Ward raised a three million three per cont. loan in 1894 at par. As a fact the minimum price of issue was .£9O, and tho loan was raised at .COi Bs. 9d. The reason that tlie Government had not been able to practise many economies yet was that it had been left a burden of responsibilities to wipe out boil 6 I , LOU S e t to economies. Mr. Russell had said that tho finances had "gone to the dogs" to tho extent of JEIGS.OOO. iliat was , tho sort of tiling that was to go to London to back up the next loan. lie tw PP 1I1! > k 3 *-' ie London financiers that they must not listen to irresponsible membors of tho Executive on tho other side. Mr. Russell apparently had proceeded on the fact that the permanent appropriations this year exceeded those of last .year by £105,000. There was tho item interest and sinking fund, but the present Government were not responsible lor the interest and sinking funds on loans, for the loans were all raised by the previous Governments. Interest and sinking fund had increased from .£2,056,000 to ,£2,717.000, an increase of The bulk of the increased expenditure was due to in railway expenditure of =£375,000. But the honourable gentleman did not say that there was also an increase in revenue owing to the increased expenditure. And how came that increased expenditure? It was made up cf increases in salaries of railway servants. Did the honourable gentleman object to that H The a honourable gentleman had mentioned increase in expenditure on public buildings. If he wished to know who was responsible for tho commitments for public buildings, he had better move ier a return. He had exclaimed against the Government's extravagance in rushing into expenditure on automatic telephones. The expenditure to date on automatic telephones did not exceed .£SOOO, and if that had not been spent on automatic telephones, more would have had to be spent on the, other telephones. It had been said that the loan was a ghastly failure. But would it not have been a, more ghastly failure if he had failed to get the loan ?

| Mr. Russell: You couldn't help it at | that price. Mr. Allen said he would say more about the raising of the three million loan'to the Public Accounts Committee. Mr. Russell: I wish I could bo there to hear it. Mr. Allen: Then I invite the honourable gentleman to come to the committee. He went on to say that the loan was raised on better terms than any other loaJi in the last few years. His : visit had not been altogether a failure. J.He had also some proposals to submit regarding the expeditionary force and naval defence; these proposals he would put before Parliament in due course. He had also done something regarding the two' loans coming due next year. The warning he had given to the country was one that ought to be given—that, these loans were in such a condition that the Dominion must maintain its credit at a high standard for at least two years. Mr. G. W. Russell (Avon). rose to make a personal explanation. He said the Minister had charged him with being unfavourable to increases of salary being given to railway men. This statement he would give a flat denial. He made several other personal explanations. Mr. Buddo is Doubtful.' The Hon. D. BUDDO (Kaiapoi) tendered a hearty welcome to Sir Walter Buchanan, who had at the moment entered the House. He went on to argue that the Minister liad been inclined to overrate his own performance in raising the three million loan, and had no.t given the lato Government the credit it deserved for issuing a short-dated, loan. It was more than possible that this loan would yet be renewed on terms which were very much better for the country than those 011 which the last loan had been raised. It was of course not true that tho Opposition favoured short-dated loans. They did not. The raising of tho short-dated loan by .the Mackenzie Ministry was purely a matter of expediency. It seemed under the circumstanccs the wisest course to pursue, and it might yet bo proved that it was the wisest course. He declared that the present Government had been extravagant. He also declared that it was not true, as the Minister had stated, that there was industrial peace in the Dominion. There was a "simmering" going on Mr. Masse;: Which you are encouraging. Mr. Buddo: Which boded anything but peace. He maintained that tho action of Sir Joseph Ward in regard to the Dreadnought had not been nearly so highhanded as the action of Mr. Allen in going, .without the sanction or authority of Parliament, to the Admiralty and discussing with them on behalf of "New Zealand, questions of naval defence for the Dominion. He repelled the accusations of political patronage which the Government hpd made, and were by inference continuing to make, against the late Government, but which they had failed to prove. He said also that the new Government had made some appointments which seemed to indicate that there was some political influence at work. He accused the Government of shirking responsibility, and relieving themselves of it by handing everything over to the control of experts.

Scientific Matters. Mr. G. M. THOMSON (Dunedin North) said ho did not propose to mako a fighting party speech. It seemed to him that the Speech of the Governor wag in marked contrast to previous Speeches, which wore remarkable chiefly for their high falutin' tone. Everything that could possibly ba promised to anybody had been promised in previous Speeches, and of course the promises were never fulfilled. The last Speech was common-sense and business-Kke.- He regretted, however, that it contained no i mention of education, which was more important to the country than the settlement of Crown lands or any other kind of lands. He had during the recess wasted a great deal of time in scanning the report of the Education Commission. The report was in many respects not a valuable one, its chief lack being all reference to secondary -education. For the last four or five years it seemed that the Education Department had run its Ministers. There was an extremely ablo man at the head of it, Mr. Hogben, a most conscientious man, of very high educational status, but he had impressed his views, which were not the views of very many educationists in the country, on the system. He (Mr. Thomson) thought the system needed a little stronger guidance than- it had at present. He was a strong supporter of the defence scheme, and he thought it was, all things considered, working very well indeed. He was heartily in support of the proposal to set up and train tffl.-expeditionary force. The need for organising was shown by the experience of one' of the contingnntM which went to Africa. These men took away with them 1000 saddles, valued at ,£7 each, and 1000 overcoats, valued at ,£2 10s. each, but within two weeks of their arrival in Africa this eouipnicnt was rejected as useless by (he.military authorities. The fact that the colonies were willing to help the Mother Country was, ho thought, a very great factor in maintaining the peace of Europe. He did not believe, however, that Germany was arming to attack and crush England. He did not believe that ono per cent, of tho boys professing to be religious objectors were so in reality. Their objection teas founded on nothing but sheer cussedness. He would like to see tho Government establish all the scientific Departments under ono Minister, and not under the Agricultural Department. As for this Department, ho thought it was an Augean stable which wanted clearing out. We were wasting a whole lot of money, for instance, on experimental plots, which were useless because they were not conducted on definite lines under proper supervision. A new scientific Department, if it were set up, could also take up numerous other activities, connccted with forestrv, with magnetic surveys, with mineralogy, and geology. Mr. G. W. lORBES (Hurunui) moved the adjournment of the debate, and tho Mouse rose at 11.26 p.m.

BIG ESTATES.

A return laid on the tnblo of tho Ilouiie by the l-'rinio Minister gives the number ,01 persons or companies who aro owners of lands in the Dominion of an unimproved value of over -C 20.000. Tho return is as follows:—.£20,000 and umlt'r •£25,000, 2.53 owners; JC25.000 to £30,000, 14!) owners; J.','50,000 to .£35,000, 108 owners; 000 to ,£IO,OOO, 70 owners; JMO,ODO to .£45,000, 48 owners; Xi 5,000 to .£50,000, 24 owners; ,£50,000 to XOO,OOO, 31! owners; to .£70,000, 16 owiurs; .£70,000 to .£BO,OOO, 13 owners; .£BO,OOO to 4i90,000, 6 owners; JCOO.OOO to rfXOO.COO, B owuoi'S; .iCIOO.fIQO ftiul nvar. 10 mvaei'3«