THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1589, 5 November 1912, Page 8

THE HOUSE.

- PUBLIC ACCOUNTS/COMMITTEE, The House sat at.2.30 p.m. ■ ■ Permission was ■ granted to the Public Accounts Committee to sit in the evening during the. sitting -hours .'of the House. AN ARCHITECTS' BILL The New Zealand Institute of Architects Bill, (the Hon. A. L. Herdman) was'read a first time.. v ■ -> In reply to a protest by Mr. G. W. Russell, against a Bill being introduced at this' stkgre Mr. Herdman. said that ,it was not his ilitention to go on with the-Bill:' His object in introducing it was merely an order' that the Bill could be circulated.;'. : • ... RAILWAYS AUTHORISATION BILL. The Railways Authorisation Bill was introduced by Governor's Message and read a first time.' ■ The Hon. W. FRASER stated; in reply to Mr; J. C. Thomson (Wallace)' that there I was not'a penny on. the Estimates this \ year, for the lilies- mentioned 'in tho schedule of the .Bill, , / ■ j / 'STATE ADVANCES. The New' Zealand State Guaranteed Advance's Amendment:Bill'-was introduced byGovernor's Mefeage'arid'read a first time. ■TOWN BOARDS:AMENDMENT BILL. The House . went into . Committee on fiveral Bills of'fthidh,-the fii'st was the o(vin ; Amendment Bill ''(the Hon; W. H.-' Hefries). 1 : . »; . ! Thb Bill - was reported , with one nnimpoftant'amendmeM.' , ■ (• .• / • ; PUBLIC RESERVES BILL, The fiiibli'o Hesejvfis . and Domains Atnehdifteht' : Bill, as coniftiittfld, provided that Dotnaiii Boards irii^h't'dcqtfire ; additional laiid'on'ttrths,'' ; The Hon. \V. P. MASSfeT tficepttd an amendment by Mr. JVitty empowering a county couheii to acquire land as a Teserve prior to the formation of a.Domain Board thfe' land to be entrusted to the board s Soon as it has been formed. ' ELLESMERE DRAINAGE BILL. The Ellesmere Lands Drainage Amendment Bill was next considered. Mt. C. PAEATA (Southern tfaori) .contended Hint the Bill did not sufficiently conserve Maori fishing rights, and'moved to iiisert a- -clans? designed-to -protect these rights.''. ; " Tlie Hon. R. H. RHODES, who in charge of the Bill, sKid that it did' 'not take away aiiy existing right," ',

This wis corroborated by tho Hon. W. It. Herries, who said that the Kill h»(l been carefully scrutinised by the Nativo Affairs Committee. Oil a division, 26 votes wore cast for, arid as majiy-ogainst, tho new clause. 'J?ho Chairman, according to j>recedent, g.ivo his vote against tho clause. . Mr. G. W. Russell: Saved by tho oasting vote! (Laughter.) . Mr. Parata now moved to insert ft now clause giving compensation to tho-Maoris for loss of fishing rights. , ■ Tho:amendment was negatived by 27 votes to 25, and the Bill was reported unamended. .- ~ ; WESTPORT HARBOUR BILL.: The Westport Harbour Amondmont Bill was committed.The Hon. F. M. B. FISHER (in chargo of-the Bill) moved to insert a new clause, empowering the board to spend portion ■of its.funds in-boring for coal on its cn'dowments.- : This was agreed to, and the Bill was reported. - ■ ! STATE FIRE INSURANCE; When the State Fire Insuranco Bill was ■ committed,.' y" Mr. 11. G. ELL (Christchurch South) said that tho present Government and the Minister for Finance in particular were disloyal to the State Fire Insurance Department.l' Mr. Allen: That is not correct. , Mr. Ell went on to comment upon circulars in regard to insurance, issued to borrowers from,tho State Lending .Departments' before and since the advent, of the present Government. These circulars have on several occasions formed the subject of discussion, in the House. . Messrs. H. ATMORE (Nelson) and Mr. 'L. SI. ISITT (Christchurch North)., paid that' tho Prime Minister, had promised to lay before the House all coiTospondence Ivtween the fire insurance companies and 'the Government, 1 together with all Departmental papers and reports relating to the proposal that mortgagors in the Advancos to Settlers Department should be relieved from tjie-necessity of insuring solely in the State Fire Office. Mr. Ell asked for an assurance from the Minister for Finance that niortgarors with the State Advances Office would be required to take out insurance cover in the State Fire Office. . ' Mr. All,en said that he had already given an assuraiice that wherever he could do-"it,'preference would- be given to the State Firo Insurance Office. . ; • Mr. Ell: That won't do; that is unadulterated, bluff! He went on to'state that the Minister could do it in. every case if he'so- desired. Tho- preceding Minister had given preference to the .State; Fire Office in-every case. .Mr. Ell said that an attack had been made upon one .of uthe imbst useful-of. tho -Stated Departments.. iHe^was'goirig^to'voice;his : protest against ,the disloyalty of' the: Minister 'in'..charge of'.tliis Depbrtmeht.' !"■ Speaking after' the dinner adjournment, : Mr; .'ELL said\ that the*present Minister for .'Fihaiice h'ad' withdrawn " ia circular sent-,out -to -borrowers .State AdVance's Office;..to 'inform''them that they taust- provide; State fire- institance cover. ■The result ; ..was." that . -private companies, were ' circiila'risihg-'the country, telling people' that they were free,'to''insure'' with whom'-they , pleased. He declared that .the/Minister for was:'disloyal to the State 'Fire Insurance Department, and wished to destroy it. Who Was Responsible? : : ~The Hon. F. M. B.' FISHER said that if there had been disloyalty to the State ■Fire ! Insurance' Department it- had nob been shown by the present Government. He read from the filo showing the history of: such compulsory measures as had been tried. When' first'such ah attempt was made to insist, upon' mortgagors insuring with;thfe' State Fire Office; in 1905, tho heads of the three greiitest State lending Departments, Mrl; J. H. Richardson, Government Insurance Commissioner, J. W. Poynton, Public Trustee, arid - P. Heyes, Government Advances to Settlers' Superintendent,- protesting against it. lhoy had said that it would , cause inconvenience to'the Department,'and irritation to many, clients, "and that it would so exercise an adverse effect, ori their mortgage business. The file'cdntaine'd a; .'letter also giving particulars of a case in whioh one mortgagor had raised ah objection .as to the legality of the compulsion. This had been : Teforred ■ - to' the Prime Minister, and his memo, was: "Better give way gracefully." Again, nh January 15, 1907, the State Advances. Board .protested against the on much the same grounds as had been raised two years previously. The Cabinet minute made' then under the -Ward;. Administra-; tion was:. "Recommendation of the board, approved; to apply also to the Public Trustee." So that everything that could be done to relieve mortgagors from the necessity of insuring in the State Office had been done before the present Ministry took office. He urged the reasonableness of allowing the Government six months' trial in charge'of this Department.. Mr. Ell had'said the State Fire Office -was losing'business,' when he did not know whether this was. a fact or not; "Not Going to'.do.-Illegal .Things." The Hon. JAMES ALLEN (Minister for Finance) said that jvhen he came into office he was assured'that there was no compulsion upoil borrowers to insure'with the 1 State, but he found-'that some of the outside agents had written' to certain mortgagors insisting-lipon* their insuring with the State. - He ■' made injiuiries on the point, and he found that it was very questionable whether this compulsion, was legal 6r not. He had therefore modified the circular-usually'sent to mortgagors, because the circular was illegal, and he was riot going to do illegal things. He was just as loyal' to tho State,' Fire Insurance Department as any previous Miriistcri but there we're reasons, it seemed' to ' him, why compulsion should not be ihsisted tipon. These State institutions Were not'established to kill out private- institution's, but to compete with them in order to prevent their .'charging too' High.rates to the.people/ 'The"State Fire Office'had this advantage, over all private institutions—tKut it was always advised:of,every mortgage executed; That was' 1 as much' as could be done; Mr. W; C. 'BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) protested against obstruction at that late hour '"of the Surely Opposition, members could accept the assurance given by'iho Minister's that the interests of the. State Fire' Department would be carefully, guarded; ' Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) said that although' the, capital actually raised by the State'Fite Insurance Department was only 'J22000, its .real capital was the Consolidated Fund; This being so it waa not right that surplus profits should be paid out to insurers in the shape of bonuses as proposed' in this Bills' Mr. Ell said-that Sir Joseph Ward, in replying to criticism in the' House on December 17, 1909, ,hM stressed the point that the business of other Government Departments Should be given to the State Fire Insurance' Department. The Bill was reported without amendment;- ■ MILITARY PENSIONS. POOR VETERANS TO BE FIRST. The Military Pensions Bill (the Hon. F. M. B; Fisher) was committed. Mr. FISHER explained that the pensions jiropo'se'd in tlie Bill at the rate of ,£36 ,a .year would cost'the country ,£25,000. The exact amount was not ascertainable, because ;it; could hot "be definitely' discovered how many, pensions would be claimed; Members-had asked that the pensions should be paid .without regard to the interne of • the'recipients, btifc'if this were done, the limited .funds available' would compel, the Government*.to take mottey ism 'thoio who. hisikled. it to .thoie-' wJiQ' did not; ■ The poor 'veterans should be considered flv'gt,' ' Mr.vj. Y. BROWN (Napiet) said that if the' Minister' needed irifife moiiey. fir : .tlie, .Scheme;^ let. him rSise-it b£ a tax on. fb'eer. Brtrtvii) would.Vote for Suoh a .'lt;woiild' then be possible to give "pensions -to all holders of theNfcvr-Zealand.'' War Medal. ■ Mr. A. E; 1 GLO)VI3R: (Auckltthd Central) said the_ Bill'was a sham Bill, and he *oUld stick.it up claiuse by clause. High- ■ spirited',' old veterans'did not, want to eat the .bfread of, charity; tlioy wanted only what : was no more than their right. Mr. H. J. H. OKEY (Taranaki) suggested that the Government should recognise the services of even those veterans who were'tolerably well-to-do. If necessary, the airi punt could' be reduced, but it should be made independent of the pensioner's means, and independent' of the bid age pension.' " ' ' ' ' ' ' Mr; J-. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) said he would not. "be a party to insulting these old' chaps," by, offering' Iheni a charity dole. ' '■ i ' , Mr,, J, A, Young (WaJkato) said he,

thought tho Bill should go further. Tho money to bo paid should bo paid as a roward. II o supported tho proposition that tho amount to bo paid should bo paid without- regard to the means of the recipient. Jlo recognised that this could not bo done at oiice, but ho hoped the Minister would keop this ideal in view. Throwing a Life-Belt. Tho Hon. V. M. B. FISHER said tho position that tho Govornraent took up was perfectly plain. There wore no facts and no figures, and no statistician in New Zealand could give any idea of what the schomo would 'cost.- What tho Government wanted to dp in tho meantimo was to throw a life-belt to tlioso who were sinking. Apparently tho member for Auckland Contral wanted them to sink. Later soniothing more might be done. Mr. A. E. GLOVER (AucMniid Contral) advisod the Minister to drop tho Bill. •\ 111'. FISHER, in reply to Mr. Clark, said ho had had a clauso' drafted providing that tho pensions should be payable to ; tho widows of veterans, but at present "it waa impossible for tho Government to increase the liabilities under the 6chemel until they know what it would cost. Ho said at once that he Was not satisfied with tho Bill, nor was the Prime Minister satisfied with it, but the Government were doing all tlisy could. They were at least doing .£25,006 more for these old mon. than tho other party had in 21 years. An amendment moved by Sir A, R. GUINNESS (Grey) to the effect that moneys d-rawn -from a bank should not bo counted as iiicomo was accepted by tho Minister and carried. Obstinate Opposition. Another amendment by Mr. G. WITTY provided that continuous residence in New Zealand should not be deemed to be' interrupted by .occasional absences, from New Zealand during which tho applicant's home and family remained in New Zealand. Tho Minister declined-to adopt a suggestion by Mr. Okey that tho clauso relating to reduction of tho pension on account of other sources of income. should be struck out, and the amount qf the pension reduced. It was absurd to 6ay, Mr, Fisher contended, that a pension of -ElO a year should be given to men who were in receipt of a comfortable income. The first thing to do was to assist those who . were in need. .' Mr. H. POLAND (Ohinemuri) said that these men did not Want any stigttja of poverty to attach to their pension. . Mr. Fisher; Da you say ,that a 6tigina .attaches to the old age ponsioi).? Mr. Poland said that ho did, not, but that others did, , He objected generally ;to the restrictions in the Bill.' i Mr. 'Fisher said, that-if the. restrictions were removed from this Bill nothing could jbe'moro certain'than that sojne members 'would (demand,next year that all restrictions' should be removed from the ,Old Age ■Pensions Bill. Only on March 5 this mat,ter had been Drought before Cdbinet'and turned down. , A member: Was that the Mackenzie Cabinet? " .' • - ; Mr. Fisher repeated his'■contention that if restrictions were deleted from this Bill there would bo a.'demand for the deletion of: restrictioh.s, froni'■ all .other pension jßills'on the Statute Book. Would mem'bers remove the present restrictions on the oldoge pension? Mr. Payne 6aid that ho would. . Mr. Pisher said that the hon. gentleman's generosity would bankrupt the country in sis months. ' > . 1 Mr. MACDONALD contended that past •Governments had. dons a, great d«al for veterans. He advooated a straight-out .military pension'. There were sounds, of protest as Mr. Okey rose to carry on the'discussion, but -the member for xaTanaki declared bluffly •that .he wasjirepated .to -stop there for 'a ■'fortnight.. '.He.-argued that the. Miniver would be-wise. t*s start:bv'providing.pensions of small amounts which could be increased later if futods allowed.. It was. unfair that a iarge number of veterans should have, to suffer because a few of them in Wellington wore well off. A division was -taken on the subclause providing that a veteran, to be eligible for a pension, must have had an income of less than .£7O during the year preceding application. . ' The sub-blaUse 'was retained by 36 votes to 27. . The Bill was reported with amendments. •More Protests. • On the motion that the Bill bo read a third time,. Mr. H. J. OKEY (Taranaki) protested that the Bill would not meet with-the approval of veterans, for the; reason that tho payment ■ .being miidfr was in tho 'nature of charity. Mr. A. E. GLOVER (Auckland Central) said the Bill did. not Co'mmend itself to the people of the Dominion ah. account of the pauperising clauses in the Act. Mr. J. \V. BROWN (Napier) said the Government ouglit not to be afraid of an expenditure of in a year when a . surplus of a million was im prospect. ' ' Mr; H. .ATMORE (Nelson) thought Government had been Ungenerous : in their action about the Bill. 'It was the action of a skinflint Government, and the pension should be ' described as charitable aid. '•■ ■ ■' • . ■•-■' ■ ■ •'••The Hon.M. B, FISHER said that the Government had_ done the best it oould under thte circumstances. ;No doubt a number of veterans would be conscious of the fact that the hoft. gentleman who had ,last spoken- had done his best to kill the Bill. The member for_ Nelson had supported a Government which- had collected 'Millions by wa,y of surplus, and had done nothing for' the veterans. This Bill did not go so far as he (the Minister) would like- to see'it go. Neither did it go so far as the Prime Minister wished. to- go. But. they were doing the best- they oould with the funds at. disposal. The first thing to do was to help the men who" wanted help. If any gratuities for medal-holders "were to be made, they could be made afterwards with .any 'surplus' from tho 'pension fund. ' RAILWAY APPEALS. A- RIGHT TO REPRESENTATION. Amendments to the , Railways Amendment Bill were introduced by' Governor's ■Message.. ■ ' •. ■ The Hon. W. .H. HERRIES explained that .the amendments gave appellants' before, the Railway Appeal Board the right to be represented. Ho was not going to allow solicitors to appear, but proposed that, the secretary of the Amalgamated Society of. Railway Servants should be allowed to appear- for appellants before the Appeal Board, and that the same privilege should extend to the Railway Officers' Institute and to the Locomotive Eiremen's and Cleaners" Associa.' tion. He had' at first intended to introduce these chaifges by regulation, but on Ending that he could not do so' had decided to do so.by Governor's Message. The amendments were agreed to. THE LAND. BILL. COUNCIL AMENDMENTS ACCEPTED. The Land Bill waa repoTted from the Legislative Oouncil. with emiendmentls Tho Prime Minister moved that the amendments be agreed to, and explained their effect. Clause i had bten amended to provide for the appointment of a deputy chief surveyor as well as a. deputy commissioner. Clause (h had beon amended to provide that tenants on national endowment lands, as well a? tenants on educational endowment lands should ■' have the right to voto in the flection, of members of Crown Boards. The scope of Clause 20 had been widened to: allow anyone, whether the holder of a kauri-gum license or not, to take up 'a . section of giim*lnnd. Other clauses liad been, amended verbally to make their meaning and intention clearer. •'Jhe amendments wito agreed to. .LOCAL BODIES LOANS. The amendments mado in. the . Local Bodies Loans Aiiielvdnieut Act were agreed to on the voices. V . : s " ' '■'.. PUBLIC REVENUES. . • Amendments, merely tho redrafting of a clause, in the Public Revenues Amendment Act were introduced by Governor's Message and agreed 'to'by the House. THIRD READINGS. i The following Bills,' which had been put through' Committee earlier in the evening, were read a third time;— Town Bonrds Amendment Bill, Public Reserves .and Domains Amendment Bill, Ellesmcro LnntU Omritw Amendment'Bill, and tho . Westport Harbour Amendment Bill,

BARMAIDS REGISTRATION. The Hon. W. f. MASSEY (Primo Minister) moved tho second reading of tho Barmaids' Registration Bill. He said tho Bill was intended to remedy a defect in tho Licensing Act.of 1910. When thai Act was passed it was intended that no barmaid should bo employed as sueh unless she had been registered. It was discovered that tho term barmaid did not apply to women working in private bars, and to tlint oxtcnt the Act had become a dead letter. Tho late Govorninent had promised to remedy this defect, and ho had given the s.amo promiso on hehalf of this Government. His advice was that the Bill would requiro amendment to becomo workable. Tho Bill was read a second tiino without discussion. GOVERNMENT LIFE INSURANCE. The Government Life Insurance Amendment Bill (tho Hon. J<\ M. B. Fisher) was read a secoiul time without any discussion. . FISHERIES AMENDMENT. i The Hon. F. M. B. FISHER (Minister for Marine) moved the second reading of the Fisheries Amendment Bill. Tho whaling industry in New Zealand, he said, had been subjected to an invasionfrom Norwegian whalers, aud it was thought dcsirablo that tho New Zealand Government should exercise somo control over them. Power was takin mider the Bill to restrict tho shoro limits' within which whalers may work, to fix a i license fee, to regulate the capacity of tho shore factor)-, and to protect the public against undue pollution of public waters. Penalties were also provided for the spoiling of oyster beds, and under another clauso tho Governor Was permitted to authorise any person to' construct and maintain ponds for breeding trout for sale. Mr, J. H. liRADNEY (Auckland West) .remarked upon tho fact that crews, on whalers were not paid at tho rates ruling .on ships trading on tlio New Zealand coast. Tho Hon. F. M. B. FISHER said that this would mean that the Bill would have to be sent Home for thd Royal assent, and that thero was every' possibility of the assent being .withheld. . The Shipping 'njid Seamen's Act, 1910, hiad not been assented to by his Majesty. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) . suggested that the Government introduce a short Bill this session providing that the ruling New Zealand wages should be paid on whalers off our coasts. The Bill under review need nqt then bo delayed pending tho assent of his Majesty. STATE FIRE INSURANCE. The Hon. F, M..8, FISHER moved the third reading of the State Fire Insurance Amendment/Bill. . Mr. Q. WITTY (Biecartqn) repeated the protests made in Committee against the Government failing to insist upon all borrowers from the State insuring their property with tho State Office. ' • . ' Mr. J. H. BRADNEY (Auckland West) ■ said he was opposed ..to all combines, and monopolies, and he made no exception of Government monopolies. This proposal from those opposed to the Bill was really to set up a monopoly maintained by compulsion. The State.Offioe had had to come to terms with the companies,,- and the State could now. offer insurers no better terms than the companies. , The Hon. "J. ALLEN said that the circular that was being sent to. mortgagors .in t'he State' Office was directly contrary to the terms of tho Statute,, and' he.had made it his business, when he camo into offioe, to amend the circular to bring it into conformity with the law. The circular ■ sai d preference was to be given to the State Office, and that was all it was entitled to say. ■ The object of the Compulsion proposals was to ldll : out all other offices, and . that had never 'been the intention When the State Department-was 'established;_' It would not be- a . good ithing to drive all private companies' out of business; it would bo very much better to have the competition ot private .companies to' regulate the State Office. As things were now tho lending Departments always notified the State Fire Insurance' Department, and the State Office was always first in the field, and this was surely sufficient advantage. Compulsion would not be good for tho lending Departments, and, furthermore,, it was not fair to insist on a man^: insuring- ..with tho State when he could insure more cheaply outBidO. ' . The thitd reading was - carried on the ,voices.- ' GOVERNMENT LIFE INSURANCE. Tho Government Life Insurance Amendment Bill (the Hon, J. M. B. lasher) wont through Committee without (imendment, and was read a tihird time., The House -rose at 2.5 a.m.