"IMPERTINENCE"

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1586, 1 November 1912, Page 6

"IMPERTINENCE"

NOT A PARLIAMENTARY WORD. A WRONG RULING CORRECTED. , AN UNPLEASANT INCIDENT*. Another ruling was given in the House of Representatives yesterday by Mr. Speaker oft tho question of whether or ilot thfi words "a piece of impertinence" aro, oi , lire not, permissible in tho House when addressed by ono member to another. it happened that Mr. Gr. W* Russell, member /or Avon, was asking a question of tho Minister for Justice, and i\tr. .W, C. liuchfiiian, member for Wairnrapa, interjected, a remark, which was tha be-' ginning of a question. Sir. ltussell cut him short with: "I am •not asking a question of tlio member for Wairnrapa. 1 run asking a question of the' Minister , . I regard his intrusion as a piece of impertinence." Mr. Buchanan: I ask you, sir , / whether tho honourable member is justified in using sutsh language in replying to a perfeetly civil question—whethor ho was. sure tho information was correct. ' • , Mr. Speaker,: I think'the honourable member Was justified in iising that remark when you interrupted him. Some days ago—on ■ October 21, to l>o exact—Mi\ Speaker was asked to soy whether the words "a downright piece of impertinence,". used by Sir Joseph Ward to the chairman of the Public Accounts. Committee, were Parliamentary. On that •occasion, Mr. Speaker gave his decision 111 these words: "In deciding tho point I have no. hesitation in ruling that the lan- . gnago used by""•■ the' Right Honourable Sir Joseph Ward to the chairman was unparliamentary." Mr. Buchanan is Astonished.. Shortly after eight o'clock, some hours after the incident Jhad . occurredj Mr. < Uuchanau asked to be allowed to refer to it again. Hβ said he. had been indig , - haiit to a degree that he; could'not describe at an Imputation cast upon him' by the hon. member for Avon, in stating that he was guilty of an impertinence ■when ho; was guilty. Mr. Buchanan wiint on to explain what had led up to this accusation. He had taken no part whatever in the long debate that hfteruoon,. Mx. ltussell had been speaking about tho deprivation of the privileges of the Wai hi prisoners. The member, for Avon was spnakng about the restriction in regard to tobacco, when quite courteously and quietly hii asked the hon. member for Avon whether ho had had an opportunity of verifying tho correctness of his information. Hβ (Mr. Buchanan) 'had not. the remotest idea." .of j fluestioning'the genuineness of tho state-" nient the member for Avon was making, an far as that member ■ was concerned. I'hey could imagine his astonishment then-upon being accused of impertinent conduct. He had beei in that House for the greater part of thirty years, and had sat' under successive ■ Speakers without reproach of • this- character- ever- having been cast .upon him. He had, however, his constituents ta bear in mind, and their'honour was iin his keeping/ His feeling in., the matter ■ was ■ stronger t)ie more ho thought of it.' Smarting under it, ho had .appealed to Mr. Speaker, and. his astonishment had been, greater still/ when ho was told that it was possible in. the ordinary course, of do.baW.to use. this language. ..'•'. , As he understood it, Mr., Speaker's endorsement, was given/to the. imputation passed niton him by. the member for Avon. Being in doubt as to the wisflom »j raising' the question, under lias' state- of feeling at the moment, he' said'nothing'. He had always accepted the ruling: of the, Chair. The more he thought ;« ; thematter, haweverj the more he- felt deter-; mined not to rest under such an, -unjust imputation. Hβ quoted from a recent ■ Hansard the ruling of Mr. Speaker in conr flection with almost similar ■language.used. by Sir Joseph Tfed in , the , Piiblic'Ai''' counts Committee , ; "Ho askeci if he might refer to that,ruling.' -'; ." .".. ■ ..-. -■ L'sM-r. Speakers: T^avejio.objection.s>"*He', ' hon.. member's doing ep- r ■ ■ ' Mr. Buchanan quoted Mr. Speaker's rUing on October 21,-and added that the effect of the-'remarks used by Sir' Joseph' Ward to Mr. Hin,o and .by jjr. -Russell to himself -was virtually the same.. Hβ was determined that he would not rest until' ■he had cleared himself of the imputation, he had the right to appeal to members ORajnst the ruling of,the Speaker, but' lie did not wish ;bo adopt that.' course if it could possibly be aypided. • • • ■ ■ ■ Mr. Speaker: Does the hon. member for Avon, wish to say anything? ..'':•■' 'Mr. Russell: No, Sir. I. have nothing to say. . .. .' ; ' . Mr. Speaker (addressing Mr. Buchanan): ■Thßhoh.meiiiber catftake' what loursb'b'e thinks fit in the circumstances.; the Advice of-a Friend. : , . Mr. Buchanan rose to speak, hut Mr. T, H. Davey'. (Chrietehujcih East) asked to be allowe4 t<? interpose. He said hc,did rat feet at..all happy in speaking on the subject. He had, not been in. tho Holism when the ' words were used, but if- the words- were used, 1 .ho would ' suggest to ■ the honourable member for .-Avon :..that if ho. did use them it was his obvious duty to' with-. ;dra-57 them,' All members made mistakes; ho had made them himself,.and ho had liad to withdraw 'words- used, and lie ■would suggest to the. member "for -Avoit that it would come with a good grace from him if he would'withdraw the expression. (Hear, hear.) Mr. Sneaker-Admits His Error. Mr, Speaker: I don't think it is my ■ duty to give r«asons foe my. ruling, but siuce the honourable member for Avon declines to say anything, I think, in justice to the nlembor for Wairnrapa, who is a- very old member of the House, it is my duty to say wKy-1 gave that -ruling,'and what was passing'in my. mind at the time. Ho has quoted a ruling I ■jtave oii a recentoecasi6h when the. Eight Kon, Sir Joseph Ward was charged with: navmg mado «se : of unparlianwnthry language,, namely, that the chairman o'f a committee was guilty of "a downright piece of impertinence" in something he had said. The word used this afternoon was "impErtinence." It was-not, there- , : foro, quite so ■strong as the expression made use of by tho right hon. member for Awarua, but the cifcumstanccs Wider Which the words- were made iise of were ■ quite different., The chairman of tho committee was carrying out a duty «r function he. .-had to perfdrni in asking tho member for Awarua- to answer a question or not to answer. "The chairman had a perfect right -to ask that question. 'In.: the matter to-day, the honourable member for Avon was -addressing n question, to tho Honourable Minister'.for Justice, and tho member for Wairarapa, 1 held, had interrupted the member for Avon,and had called down., upon his head the i retort to that interruption, that ho was I impertinent. The interruption of the mem-: ber for Wairarapa was, I understood, challenging the correctness of the statement of tho honourable the member for Avon. I accept the Hah Sard proof. I may have been,mistaken as to what was said', and the honourable member's explanation puts me in a rather-difficult position'as to the way in which he states lie put the question. He quoted from tho Hansard proof, jind all tliof was reported of Mr. Buchanan's question was; "Are you-—?"■ "These nrp the only words recorded by the shorthand writer," said Mr, Speaker. "In view of tlie interjection ns I heard it, 1' .thonghf the member was improperly jntetrrtptcd. When members improperly interrupt—l aui sorry to sny it is a practice f.h'at is growing in the House; I have tried to stop it—m.emliors making these, interruptions must bp prenared to tnkp some, ehastisement. looking at it from tliflt point of vietf. I thought ' the. word "impertinence-" in ■order. Since the House adjourned I have been looking up the authorities. I have found Hint (life Speaker of the Rn.ujo of Commons has ruled, that the word "im. pertinent" is not parliamentary. My decision at thf moment, therefore/ is k decision that I can iierar uphold 'again. Having given that rulins, I think it ismy duty to make this explanation. . Mr, Russell is Anjry.. Mr.Uiisseli now rose and said that after what Mr. ■ Speaker had said ho felt it As duty to say a few words. The memwr.for Wnirarapa, he proceeded, was perhaps aiore jruil'tj' of i.uterjectiojls, some of which, Whether intentionally or r.ot> wero '.offensive, .than any other member lii-the Hpiise, (Cries of "Ordar!") "Only last Friday night/" said Mr. Russell: -"hV :epeated'and put on- record -'S- Eansaid , -" faii bsfo?fl. Sir. EtiMell.

had made, his; .point;' that W must not' refer to another debate. . '■■ • ' ' Mi. Russell Bfiid , he regretted ho was, not pornntted to say what was rankling' l^. Ids mind at the- time lie made tliir interjection, i ' ■'".'■ '.'■'■ -'■' v Sir. Buchanan: Might I ask that ho W allowed to- refer to anything ;thaV he thinks may bo incidental to what .has occurred?. V -. '' .■.'.- .■ Mr. Speaker said he had rulnd for tbe : protection df -the .member for Wairorapa and. it Was understood that,. with' the' unanimous indulgence of the House : Mr Russell i could,...proceed. . ■.. • '•. ■ "Oh three -sepax-ato. occasions," Mr.- JUis--' sell began, but was. interrupted .-by ■ tho Hon, J. Allen, who'said.lie objected to references to previous .debates. ' . Mr, Russell: You «re a^beautiful.epecimen of ii Minister for Finance. , ". - ' ■ --. Mr. Rhodesj. Orderj Older! Mr. Allen.; 1 ask. .whether that express sion is in order. •" ' . • ' . Mr. Speaker: "The hort. meniber lniist" not moke us<o of jmcli language, ■ v -.' Mr. Russenrt withdraw. Again turning .to -tlie'-Hon.' J'. Allen: "I■ would, like to see you'.;in cotiimahd; pf .anarmy.' ...'■' ; ' ■■'■:■■' ■ Mr. Rhodes:' Order! ; Shame.! The outburst:was allowed .to-pass Unchallenged, ' and Mr'. Russell then pipceeded to Explain his use' of. tlip laneiiago in.question. He said that, though' all the words .did'.not appear irithe Han-.-sard tepjort," he heard .Mr.:. Buchanan askj' "Are you euro' , that -"What you'' are say-' , : ijiig-—-?" He. considerejl ■ that while- ho', was -asking the' Minister' for Justice' a' somewhat difficult question, it'was not a. prppex course.for any luenitwr to break'in' :w.ith another '.tfjiestjon, nor was. it ' a; course to;' which. l\c was' called, tipon to; .submit without., some iexprqssion of .his 1 feeling. Hβ did not; want to have any' .trouble; and. .as Mr. Speaker now -ruled that theWordwas unparliamentary-, hewithdrew it.; .' . '■■ "(- -.; , Hon, menibers*,Hear, hear. ■ .'-■ ;'-. Mr, Speaker said 'ho. did. not wish'to -be ■misunderstood. His,ruling -of the after- , noon, whether, good, or bad must stand; But in future, lie' would rule the. : word; "impertinence" out of order, and vould' not allow, it to be used in any .circumstances. ■ ■ ■ . / Hon.-m'embers: Hears hear.. ■ : ..' A Difference in'Methodr ' ; ' : '' Mr. 'Buchanan . .said . he , : di(t not propose to: follow .the:.course, adopted. by the" member , ■■fpr- , ■ Avon. ,, ' Hβ was snro honj members' would■■■accepfe ills statement that he h'a'd;not : est- intention,' of''questioning 1H? : : :bona fines of' , the statement made,"by;-the jioji.:. niembßr.for Sofar ashewasppn;'. -corned, the incident was''closed,: ''.■ .■'■'■■ : ; The course by 't;he;membei:;for/ Avon, to Vhich. Mr; Biichaha)i: referred,', ii explained' by the follbjving •tion, . standing ,in his,, name, relating, to. another , question' of , , 'priyilege" rais.ed 'in , the House:—"That 'the House :dissents'. from the Tulingpf'Mr. Speaker, this day,' that a question.' of. breach of .privilege '.can, bo set aside By' Sumption' that, the■flqifie" , proceed to the:ne3:t..bus.iness-prior to the letter containing■- the s -':allegcd. breach' 'of privilege; being read by theclefk." ■ ,■' ■ -■. •■• ~- ■ ./. ■ "'■' ■''' ■'"