RAILWAYS BILL.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1585, 31 October 1912, Page 8

RAILWAYS BILL.

THE GENERAL MANAGER PROPOSAL. MOKE OPPOSITION PROTESTS. Consideration of amendments made, in Committee iu tho Government Railways Amendment Bill gavo rise to a long discussion. Sir J. WARD (Awarua) made a brief protest against tho pruposal to import a General Manager. \ Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) spoko at greater length to tho samo effect, and also dealt with various aspects of railway policy. Mr. A. E. GLOVER (Auckland Central) also objected to the General Manager proposal. Referring to tho change Chat would result from the passing of the Public Service Bill, Mr. Glover declared that he would.insist upon approaching the Commissioner on behalf of applicants for work, even if. it led to his being martyred and incarcerated in Mount Eden Gaol. Mr. G. V. PEARCE (Patea) supported the proposed importation of a general manager. He maintained that railway omployecs wero not opposed to the proposal. Ho regretted that the Minister had not seen fit to grant to the First Division the increases recommended by the Railways Committee of last year. He regretted that ho had been absent on the previous day when tho report on the Otira Tunnel Petition was discussed. In his opinion the Midland line would not pay ono per cent. In fact, it would not pay running expenses. Tho Gisborne-Napicr railway was in the same position. In the past the rest of the railway system had been made to pay for. these political lines. Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) said.that Mr. Pearce, on the proviou's night had voted against, a proposal to give to tho First Division the increases recommended by the Railways Committee last year. He said that the Railway Service was not in favour of importing a general manager. He was dead against bringing into this country a general manager of railways at ■£30(10 a year. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) saiil tho discussion followed ill upon the talk about saving time, especially the speech of tho member for Patea. Mr. Pearce: I spoko only about five minutes. Mr. Nosworthy: What about all tho other speeches over there? Mr. lsitt: Wo have opened up again this question of tho general managor Mr. Nosworthy: Let her go, then. And Mr. lsitt went on with the discussion. He moved an amendment to the effect that the House recommend that the increases approved by tho Railways Committco be granted to members of the first division of tho Service. Mr. H. ATMORE (Nelson) seconded the amendment. Mr. G. J. ANDERSON (Mataura) said the moving of tho amendment was one of those cunning political dodges to put those members in a wrong position who wero in favour of tho railway officers being given the increases to which they were entitled. The present Minister was merely carrying out the promises of the lato Minister, and tho Second Division had got all the increases because thcro were more votes in tho Second Division. The carrying of the amendment would kill the Bill, and make it impossible for the Minister to grant any increases at all, because thero wero no funds available for more increases than those provided for already.

Mr. It. W. SMITH (Waimarino) and Mr. G. LAURENSON' (Lyttelton) supported the amendment. Mr. T. BUXTON (Teinuka) spoke in a similar strain.

Mr. i". MAUNDER (Marsden) said that members on both sides of the House sympathised with tho claims of tho First Division, but the financial side had to lx> considered, and Government members were not going to embarrass the Minister by passing such an amendment as this. The Minister had done more for the First Division than any of his predecessors, and had promised to do moTe when the state of the finances allowed him to do so.

Amendment Rejected. Tho amendment was. rejected on a division by 11 rotes to ■ On the motion that the Bill bo read a third time, Mr. G. LAURENSON (Lyttelton) said that ho would defy any member on tho other side to go with liira upon the public platform and defend this iniquitons and wrongful measure. He challenged Mr. Leo (OamavuJ to go to Oamaru and defend tho vile vote he had cast in favour of this measure. Later, Mr. Laurenson extended his challenge to Mr. Fisher, whom he invited to meet in tho Town Hall nt Wellington in defence of the Bill. Mr. 'Laurenson said that a statement made by the member for Patea that tho Taihape branch of.the Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants had passed a resolution in favour of importing a general manager was untrue. lie withdrew untrue, and substituted incorrect. The.ro were 40 branches of the Amalgamated Society, and all were against the proposal to import a general manager except one. which hdd held tho. matter over. In his concluding remarks, Mr. Laurenson characterised as "a damnable doctrine" the idea that a general manager could not 1)0 obtained locally. Mr. I'EA f'C'E said that what he had snidthai some of the railway employees were not against, the proposal to import a general manager. As to the resolution nf the Taihapt brunch which lie had mentioned. he had auotod. it iroui

the "New Zealand Railway Review" of September -I). IDI2. Mr. A'. HARRIS (Wuitomatn) asked why it was that the him. member for I.yttelion raved in I lie undignified way tliat he had just done against a j>io[insal that was « main plank in tile policy of (he .Mackenzie Government, of wilich lie had been a member. He (Mr. Harris) was of opinion that an expert general manager would save his salary to the country many times over.

A Challenge Accepted. The Hon. F. M. B. FISHER (Minister for Marine) said the lion, member for Lytleiton had (lone him the, honour of having offered him tho uso of tho'Wellington Town Hall to debate with him (Mr. Laurenson) tho proposals in the Bill. Ho would bo very glad to accept the honourable gentleman's challenge at any time. Mr. G. LAURENSON (Lyllel(on): Tho honourable tho Minister has slightly misrepresented nie. He said I offered him the use of the Wellington Town nail. I didn't offer him the uso of the hall.

Mr. Jt\ H. Smith: Backing down. Mr. Laurenson: The man who said I back down—l never back down. I will take you on at any time. I will take you in the centre of your own electorate. He said I offered him the use of the Wellington Town Hall. It is an absolute misstatement. I asked him to meet mo in debate in the Wellington Town Hall. I am not a wealthy man, and tho cost of tho liall and advertising would bo about .£25. But I 1 will pay half the cost of advertising and taking tho hall. Mr. Fisher: I shall be very glad to meet the honourable gentleman at any time," and to pay half tho cost of the meeting.

Tho Government's First Duty. Mr. W. NOSWORTHY (Ashburton) said he had listened to the debate with interest, tut without much edification to himself. If members wero to behave as they had in seeking to gain the favour of the first division of the railway service it would not be long beforo the railway servants and all tho other public servants in the country would have to be disfranchised. Opposition members: Oh, oh! Mr. Nosworthy: Yes, I speak for myself and not for the Ministry. But it's coming to that. The country 'can't stand it much longer. He went on to reproach the Opposition members—members of the party which bad governed tho country and run the railways for twenty-ono years—for trying now to put the present Government in a hole. The late Government had not granted increases to railway servants in all those years, and they had left things generally "in a mess." The cleaning-tip was left for the present Government. 1-irst of all the Government must, try to get interest on the thirty odd millions of money invested in railways, and tliev ought to deal fairly with tho staif, but it was wrong to say that they would be justified in paying away more than tho railways wero earning. He did not think enough salary was being offered for the General Manager. Tho Government were, he thought, trying to run the railways, not first of all in the interests of tho railway servants, but -in the interests of tho taxpayers of this country.

An Amendment Rejected. Mr. H. POLAND (Ohinemuri) moved as an amendmont to the motion that tho Bill be read a third time: "That the Bill be recommitted in order to consider the following new clause—'l'hat on' and after January 1, 1013, all children under fivo years of ago bo carried free on the NewZealand Government Railways." (Hear, hear! from Mr. Isitt and other Opposition members.) Mr. J. ROBERTSON (Otaki) seconded the amendment. Mr. E. NEWMAN (Rangitikei) said that nothing would givo him greater pleasure than to support the amendment, but. ho recognised that it was the first duty of tho Government to give promised increases to the railway officers. Until this had been done the Minister would not be entitled to make a concession of this kind. When the claims of the men had been attended to ho would bo glad to support a proposal to rcduco children's fares. Mr. T. BIIXTON (Temulta) supported the amendment. It would bo a good thing, he said, to rcduco the fares of children under five, and to increase the fares of men who travelled for purposes of sport. Tho Hon. D. BUDDO (Kaiapoi) said that he would cast his vote for the amendment. 'Mr. F. H. SMITH (Waitaki) said that he had advocated tho concession during his election campaign, but could not support it as it was brought up on this BilL The amendment was rejected on a division by 37 votes to 30.

Another Amendment Disallowed. Mr. R. W. SMITH (Waimarino) said that ho had looked up the "Railway Review," mentioned by Mr. Pearco earlier in the debate, and had found that tho Taihapo branch of tho Amalgamated Society of Railway Servants had passed a resolution in favour of importing a General Manager of Railways. But over the page, and on other pages, it was reported that numerous other branches had carried resolutions against the proposal. Tailiape was tho only branch that had carried a resolution in favour of tho proposal. Ho moved, as an amendment:— "That it be a suggestion to the Minister for Railways that as soou as possible 48 hours bo made a maximum working week for tho member* of the New Zealand railway service." Mr. SPEAKER ruled the amendment out of order.

SPEECH BY MR, HERRIES. WHO ARE KAILWAYMEN'S TRUE FRIENDS? Tho Hon. W. 11. HERRIES (Minister for Railways) said the Opposition tactics had been obstruction pure and simple, an endeavour to entangle the Minister who was trying to do his best for tho service, and at the same timo it was an attempt to gain some cheap notoriety for tho movers of the amendments. An honourable member: Very cheap. Air. Herries said that the amendments would have had tho effect of killing tho Bill. / Mr. Isitt: Nonsense. Mr. Ilerrios: If any of tho amendments liad been carried he would nt onco have withdrawn the Bill. Mr. Isitt: That's your responsibility. Mr. Herries: And I would have taken the responsibility. He said that members of tho Opposition ha<l talked like ignoramuses about railway management. Ho thanked the member for Auckland East for his support; tho honourable member knew something of management of railways. Ho (Mr. Herries) had dono as much as ho could for the first division, and he li.-ul been abused like a pick-pocket for it. Ho went on to refer to tho appointment of ft General Manager. An honourable member: Why not choose a man in New Zealand? Mr. Herries: I am head of my own Department, and I am not jjoing to run down my Department in this House. I would bo a mean skunk if I did it. I am not going to follow the example of the honourable member for Awarua • in mentioning the names of men suitable for the position of general manager. Ho left out tho names of some of tho mghest-up men in tho scrvice. Mr. R. W. Smith: are condemning Herries: Nothing of tho sort. He went on to say that tho member for Waimarino would have followed tho Mackenzie Ministry into the lobby on this proposal. Honourable members were aigulii" that the recommendations of the Railway Committee should be carried oi.t, but wero all recommendations of committees and Ifoval Commissions carried out? Commorilv, they were ignored, but lie proposed to'carry out all the recommendations of the committee if given time to do it. In any case, the recommendations of the committee did not touch half of the First Division. When ho got to the reorganisation of tho First Division, increases of .£lO would cost liim J:G000 or ,67000 ft year. It was his intention, unless tnero was somo calamity which cut down rcilway revenue, to meet nil the demands of the First Division. Yet it would bavo been supposed that lie had never thought of doing anything; tho abuse could w.t liavo been worse. "A Curious Thing." He did propose lo deal with applications from New Zealand, along with those from Home, but not from men outside tho service. He had advised tho Iligh Commifiouer to njnet. I ho head? of mime jjf iks bis railway wuceriw st Home t«_

assist him to make his recommendation to flic Government. Ho did not know anything aljout tho Mackenzie Government because ho was out of tho colony when it was in office, but it was a curious thing (hat those who had supported that Gov-, eminent seemed to distrust tho Ilonournblo Tom Mackenzie. But ho ventured to say that tho Honourable Tom Mackenzie was ono of tho shrewdest business men in this country. Mr. R. W. Smith: Ho proved that. An lion, member: He looked aftor himself. Mr. Horries: A man who can look after himself must bo a shrewd man, and a shrewd judge of men. I believe ho is capable of recommending to us a good man, and I believe he will do it. I believe wo will get a Rood man. Ho thought most of the disaffection in tho Railway Service had been caused by the action of the Government in 190S when uo promotions wero made. A gross injustice had been done to tho Service.

. Mr. Brown: You aro taking risks •in importing a general manager. Mr. Herries: Wo always run risks; We run risks at general elections. (Laughter.) Wo always run the risk of having members like tho honourable member for Napier among us. Tho debate, ho said, hud served to show how much ignorance tliero w - as amongst members about railway management. The honourable member for Lyttclton had said ho would rather seo the Bill throjvn out than have niu-out-side manager appointed. Let honourablo members opposed to tho Bill vote against it. Let them throw tho Bill out and nono of the increases would bo granted. Mr. Forbes: Wo tried to improve it. Mr. Massey: Nono of you have the pluck. Mr. Herries: Ix>t them vote against tho i>W) and then, tho railway servants will know who their friends aro, Mr. Russell: Tho First Division know who their friends aro now. Mr. Herries said it was proposed to grant increases totalling .£BB,OOO to tho second Division. Mr. Russell: When? ~M t - Herries: A sum of £14,000 is on the Estimates now. He added that was to bo given to tho First Division. It was not true that tho Governnient hod no regard for til© railway servants. Sir. SPEAKER stated the question, and asked for the vote on the voices, according to tho usual formula. No one answered "No/ 1 and he said, "Tho Ayes have it." Air. Massey: Where's your coura&e?

EDUCATION BILL. The Education Amendment Bill as introduced by Governor's Message, nnd read a first time, read a second timo pro forma,-and referred to the I'ducation Committee.

DEFENCE .Bl LL AMENDMENTS. Amendments to the Defenoe Amendment Bill wero introduced by Governor's. Message. The Hon. JAS. ALLEN explained that tho amendments gavo the Governmentpower to tako over drill balls us Crown property, and generally to administer sucli property. The next Order of the Day called upon, the Dunedin Garrison Hall Trustees Empowering Bill, was discharged from the' Order Paper on tho motion of the Hon. Jas. Allen, who explained that the amendments to the Defence Bill just introduced did away with tho necessity for a special Bill to deal with the Dunedin Ganison Hall.

PUBLIC REVENUES AMENDMENT BILL. The House went into .Committee on a number of Bills of which tho first was the Public Revenues Amendment Bill. Mr. G. "WITTY (Riccarton) moved an amendment to, tho effect that all State buildings "should be insured in tho State Firo Office. 'J'lio Hon. J. ALLEN, in charge of tho Bill, would not accept the amendment on tho ground that the Bill did not concern firo insurance in riny way. Tho amendment Was lost on tho voices. Two unimportant amendments, moved by tho Minister, were accepted on tho voices. Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) moved tho addition of a now clause empowering a local authority to transfer for a period not longer than three months, moneys from a special account to the general account, provided always that tho transfer must be approved by tho Audit Office. This, he explained, would relievo public l>odies from the necessity of paying overdraft on general account, when the bank hold moneys in credit in special accounts. Tho proposal met with a mixed reception. The Minister said he had a dAI of sympathy with the amendment, but ho was not sure that it would bo wise to embody it in tho Bill in tho shape in which it -was submitted. He would bo very pleased to consider the matter. Tho amendment was lost on tho voioea. SAVINGS BANK BILL. Tho Savings Bank Amendment Bill (tho Hon. J. Allen) was committed. A new clause, moved by tho Minister, .permitting of the investment of savings bank funds, was agreed to and tho Bill was reported with this amendment. LOCAL BODIES LOANS. The Local Bodies Loans Amendment Bill (the Hon. J. Allen) was committed. The Bill was reported with minor amendments. CEMETERIES BILL. Tho Cemeteries Amendment Bill (the Hon. A. L. Herdman) was committed and was reported with amendments. MARRIAGE AMENDMENT BILL, Tho Marriage Amendment Bill (the Hon. A. L. Herdman) was committed. Mr. R, M'CALLUM (Wairau) moved an amendment similar in effect to tho Marriage Validation Bill, introduced by him and rejected on tho third reading by the House of Representatives. Tho amendment was defeated bv 32 votes to 23. AGED AND INFIRM PERSONS. .Tho Aged and Infirm Persons' Protection Bill (tho Hon. A. L. Herdman) was further considered in Committee. The Hon. A. L. HERDMAN moved to add tho following new clause: "Where it is made to appear to tho .satisfaction of the Court that any persons is, by reason of his taking or using in excess alcoholic liquor, or any intoxicating, stimulating, narcotic or sedative drug, unable wholly or partially to manage his affairs, whether such inability is continuous or occasional, tho Court may make a protection order." Tho clause was inserted, and the Bill was reported with amendments. THIRD READINGS. All tho Bills which had been through Committco were read a third time, and passed—six Bills in seven minutes. Tho House rose at 0.17 a.m.