RAILWAYS BILL.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1584, 30 October 1912, Page 6

RAILWAYS BILL.

THE GENERAL MANAGER. INCREASES FOR THE STAFF. Tho Hon. W. H. HEREIES (Minister for Railways) moved that tho Government R-ailways Amendment Bill (read a second time pro forma) be committed. Ho said the first and most important matter in the Bill was tho proposal to import a general manager. It was idle, to deny I hat thero had liocn intense' dissatisfaction throughout tho country with the management of tho ways. Ho did jiot blame

the Department, because he thought tho men in tho railway service hud done excellent work according to their views. But there had been dissatisfaction. Why, ho snid, "if I Jiud shown myself on that race train the other day I should have stood a clianco of being lynched. (Laughter.) I didn't show myself. Ho explained that the proposal was that if tho general manager was selected in Now Zealnnd ho should be sent Home to learn methods of railway management in tho older countries. It had been decided to ask tho High Commissioner to advertise for applications in Britain and in Canada, to interview the applicants, and to recommend one to tho Government. Ho.realised that the best men availablo might not ..be, tempted to apply, by an offer of .£3OOO a year, but he thought a good youm; man might apply. Tho Government had, at any rate, been so advised.

An lion, member: What do , you call a young innnr , Mr. Hemes: From 30 to 35. He hoped to get a suitable, well-trained young man conversant with .traffic work," which, ho considered tho most difficult and the most important branch of railway work. Hβ did not think the tripartite control suggested by the late Minister for Railways, I,the Right Hon. Sir Joseph Ward,, would work out well. In such a triumvirate the Minister for Railways would be practically the general manager, and this was by no means to be desired. A man might become Minister for Railways by accident— Mr. Russell, and others: "Hear, hear." Mr. Herries:And sometimes by ability. (Laughter.) It might bo that a man could become Minister for Railways because ho wa3 a good talker, and it would not be well to nave such a man in char»e of the railway enterprise. In answer to a question, he said that the proposed term of appointment for tho general nianaeer was five years. . ■

me hirs» Diuiei/ii I'ho Amalgamated Society entirely a&u'oved of the schedule so far as the- Secnd Division wero concerned. He rexetted very much that he could not do (lore in this Bill for the First Division, mt he intended to review the whole posiion of the First Division next year. Ho iad always admitted,.and did now, that he First Division -had substantial. grievinccs. On coming into offico ho found hat his predecessor had, quite rightly lealt with the Second Division. This had inoothcd his path considerably. Tho rouble was that the public expected the tailway Department to be run as a payng concern. Possibly the rate of interst which tho railways were expected to My should be.reduced. Personally he vould aim at making the railways pay I*'per cent. That was tho agreement. :ome to by his immediate predecessor, thn nember for Auckland East. Tho pro■ious Minister for Kailways, the member or Dunedin West, had fixed upon tho ate of four per cent. To give the' con:essions that were being given to the i irst and Second Divisions necessitated educing the percentage of earnings to 3J )er cent. II: the revenue from the railvays maintained itself, he hoped to meet :ho First Division next year, and'bring its numbers into line with the Post Office, lis fear was that the new Public Service nan again increase salaries in tho Post Office. Then it would be a case of ho German fleet and tho English fleet, u any case, he hoped to remedy tho Tievances of the First Division' next •ear. '. It wa3 time, as had been stated >y the secretary of the Eailway Officers' .nstitute, that he {the Minister) felt more >ound by the promises of his predecessors han-.by the recommendations of theEailvaya Committee. . -Any honourable Minster would feel bound to carry out what lis predecessor had promised. Substantial increases were being given to -, the nrst Division, but these it had been' enitled to for some years. Tho First Diviion had not had any increases since 1007, fheroas the Second Division had received ome substantial increases a year preiously. The increases gTanted to the first Division would amount to ,'in ho first year, in the second year, E11.520 in the third year, and .£14,805 in he fourth year. Next year, when they ot the new manager's , opinion, he would w quite prepared to r«-open the wholo chedule from the beginning to the end. n concluding, the Minister remarked hat Now Zealand had a very fine body of ailway servants. With the limited reiourees at disposal it was wonderful how tho traffic wns carried on. The dislocation of traffic caused by the recent slip ou the Main Trunk lino had been remarkably'slight. This country might well bo proud of its railway servants.

A Late Minister's View's. Sir JOSEPH WARD v (Awarua) saffl he recognised tho difficult tasks which foil to the lot of a Minister for Eailways, but ho proposed to show'in what direction, in h;is opinion, the present Minister for Railways and his predecessor were in. error. He had never subscribed to tho doctrine tliat the Government should try to take over four per cent, out of tho New Zealand Railways, nnd it was owing to this endeavour that the present Ministor found himself in difficulties. The present Minister had said that he proposed to take'3J per cent., but this was moro than the cost of the money invested in the railways.

Mr. Fraser: No, no; nothing like it! Sir Joseph Ward: Taking account of the conversions that have gono on over a period of years, it will bo found that the cost is less than 35 per cent. He urged that it was not wise to use tho people's railways to extract the last possible farthing from the people. Rather tho railways should be used to develop tho country by making transport and communication easy. He Hid not ajreo with the proposal to appoint a General Manager. Recently ho had gone through tho l>3 list, nnd selected from it 51 names. Nino names ho proposed to read to the House, and they were the names of men who were quite fit for tho post of General Manager. The first name he jjroposed to read was that of Mr. It. MTilly, Chief Clerk, who had been 33 years in tho service. Mr. C. A. Piper had. been 40 years in tho service, arid ho 'also had worked his way up the , ladder from" the bottom rung. Mr. Bowles, Chief District .Traffic Manager at Auckland, and 35 years in the service was another competent man. Another-good officer with-nil-found experience was Mr. Mowatt, who had been in the service of the Manawatii Railway Company. 11 r. J. Mncdonald had been 35 years in tho service, had held the position of Traffic ' Inspector nnd Chief Traffic Clerk, - was another capable officer. Of the technical men who might be appointed were Mr. Jackson, locomotive engineer at Addington, Mr. M'lntosh, inspecting engineer, and Mr. H. Jf'Andrew. In the Australian States it had been found that non-political control had led to end-i less friction./ between tho management and the public men and the public. Mr. Herries: Not with tho public; with thfl public men, perhaps. Sir Joseph Ward said that ho did not think it was found satisfactory to have tho railways management divorced from political control. Finally he did not think it was wiso that the control of the railways should be handed over to one man, but to. a board of. say. three men, of which one would bo the Minister. Ho would vote against tho Bill. What should be done wag to take a littlo loss from the public through the to give the staff a little more. ■ ,

Mr. Myers Supports the Bill. ;Mr. A. M. MYERS (Auckland East) said ho rose with somo diffidence to disagree with certain of tho propositions of Sir Joseph Ward. He did not belicvo that the idea. of a board of three men in control would be found satisfactory. Nor was tho present system satisfactory. Tn the short time that been Minister for Railways he had been interviewed by 68 public deputations. Surely it was not right that a Minister for Railways should bo interviewed as to whether a platform somewhere should be extended ten feot. Matters of this kind should be attended to by the general manager. • An hon. member: Why did you receive the deputations?

Mr. My«fa: Because while the system remained I was trying to do my best with it. Hβ deplaml that he had to hesitation in saying thai none of the men nimed by Sir Joseph Ward was fit to take up the position of general manager. They were all excellent officers, no doubt, but they knew nothing of railway management in . biff railway centres" outside of New Zealand. A good general mnnnger would save thousands of pounds for this country, and not at the expense of the wage-earners in the service, without impairing tho efficiency of tho service. An lion, member: Taking it out nf f.hn public. Mr. Myers: Not at nil. If the general raanagor saved you thousands of pounds you would have more money available out of .which to offer, conceeeloiu to ths.

public. Tho fact was, he said, that the service in New Zealand had developed so rapidly and to such fin extent Hint it had outgrown tho men in it. The service needed it man thoroughly (.mined in railway management, ami especially in traffic work. It might even bo wise to import an expert iu engineering to report on our lines in the matter of grades, curves, and running speeds in relation to working expenses. Hβ thought ;)J per cent, could be earned easily by tho railways, and he thought also, that it was a fair amount to ask for. The appointment of tho right ; mnn to tho post of general manager would bo in the interests of tho country, of the service, and of tho employees.

An Amendment, Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) confessed that he found himself iu a difficulty, in that tho two previous Ministers for Railways on his side of the House had expressed contrary opinions. However, he thought the speech of Sir Joseph Ward appealed to him most. Once ho had l>een iu favour of the appointment of a general manager, but it was not tho class of general manager which the Government nowthought of appointing. It would be impossiblo to attract from Great Britain a suitablo man for n maximum salary of ■£3000 a year. A manager of a section of a bigiine at noino, the only sort of man fhe Government would bo likely to get for J33000, would not have tho all-round experience necessary to manage the whole railway system here. His advice to the Government was to select a man in Now Zealand ami send him Home to learn something of railway control there. He disapproved strongly of tho Government's failure to grant increases of salary to officers of the first division of the railway service. Hβ would move ■as an amendment to the motion that tho House go into Committee, tho addition of the following words: "And tho House suggests that tho Government should bring down, an amendment to grant concessions to the first division as from April 1, 1913, which were recommended by the Railways Committoo last year." Tho Hon. W. H. HEBMES raised a point of order that the amendment was in effect an appropriation. Mr. SPEAKBIt ruled that it was an expression of .opinion merely. if carried. It bound; the Government "to nothing, and it was not therefore an appropriation.

Opponents of the Bill. Mr. T. M. WILI'OBD (Hutt) gave all the credit for the granting of the increases to tho railway servants to tlio late Minister for Railways, Itr. A. If. Myers. _ The present Minister had merely put into>eft"ect the promises made. But whys.was there any- necessity to defer granting the increases until the end of the financial • year, especially when the railways were due to earn the biggest surplus •• on record ? The increases which shduld have been . made by' this Government were postponed and this was a wrong thing considering what' the railways were earning. ji division was taken on the amendment, at 10.40 p.m., and it was negatived !>}• 37irot«s to .30. . •/ • ■ ' I

The General Manager Proposal. Mr. J. VIGOE-BfiOWN (Napier) opposed the proposal to import a general manager. In his opinion, he. said, the New Zealand railways wore very well managed. Railway accidents iviich had occurred in Australia were to : be attri-

butedto running down the stock and attempting to make tho railways pay. ' The Hon. D. BUDDO (Kaiapoi) also opposed the proposal to import a general manager of, railways. He said that it seomed to be "one of tho little matters

that the present Government had taken over from tho Mackenzie Government withqnf thinking." During his speech he a'sked whether tho Minister, who got .61000. a year for his valuable services, could hope to' control a man who got .£3OOO a year. Hβ moved as an amendment:— . "Tluit this House disagrees with the proposal to pay .£3OOO si year to a General Manager of Railways, who is to be imported from outside New Zealand." Ifr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) supported tho amendment, remarking that he had never thought much of the proposal to import a General Manager, Ho said that the proposal was, in effect,' to take a man who had been in chargo of a short-distance line in a. thickly-popu-lated country and put him in charge of long-distance lines in a sparsely-populated country.

Mr. \V. C. BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) expressed his,conviction that the honourable gentleman who had just finished his speech would have taken a very different lino of action if. the Mackenzie Government had remained in ofiiee. Mr. Isitt: That is nn absolute mistake. Mr. Buchanan said tho Mackenzie Ministry, of which tho honourable gentleman, the Independent member, was a supporter, had committed itself to practically, the same policy as' the Government now submitted. Tho honourable gentleman, had taken up a groat deal of time in expressing his opinions, but ho had utterly failed to convince the Houso that he had any settled conviction on this or any other question. : Mr. G. LAURENSON (Lyttelton) said that although tho proposal to appoint a General Manager had been approved by tho Mackenzie Government, he had been always opposed to it, and tho member for Christchurch North had been opposed to it. He believed that the. Bill would never have been introduced had not the Ministry been goaded on by the. member for Wairarapa, and if the party .Whip were kept of! tho backs of Govornmont members there would not be ten votes cast in

favour of the Bill. Mr. W. A. VEITCH (Wnngamii) said it was the simplest thing in., the world for any railway manager with or without experience to take charge of a highly efficient service, and by reducing expenditure on maintenance, and running on n narrow margin of safety, make a great apparent saving in a few years. It was highly dangerous in the interest of public safety to import a young and ambitious officer to tako control of our railways. And the mere fact that an outsider was granted the best position in the service would change tho feeling of the staff towards the management, and so reduce the efficiency of the service. ■ There was no greater incentive to efficient service than tho hopo of some day being general manager. He would vote for the amendment. Sir-JAS. CARROLL (Gisborne) said that the action of the Minister for Eailways in rushing this proposal on the House could only mean a reflection on the intelligence of this country. Wo spent a million a year in education and filled the newspapers with the pride of our oxportations and yet could not obtain a manager locally. , Mr. R. M'CALLUM (Waira\i) regretted that tho present Minister, who had no lack of ability, had been timid enough to enter won a policy that wa's not selfreliant. He said the experience of Victoria with at least one Commissioner had been anything but a happy one. j

The House went to a- division on the amendment nt 0.40 a.m., The amendment w defeated by 38, votes to 25. , Tho debatp was carried on by Messrs. H. Atmoro (Nelson) and H. Poland (Ohinemnri), J. H. Brndney (Auckland West), H. G. Ell (Christchurch South), and J. A. Young (Waikato).

Bills,in Committee. At 1.35 a.m. tho Houso went into Committee on tho Kaiapoi Reserve, East Coast Nntivo Trust Land,; and Government Railways Amendment Bills. Tho two jirst-mentioned Bills wero put through without amendment in five minutes. While tho Government Railways Amendment Bill was being . considered, tho Minister stated .that Newr'Zealanders would bo eligible for tho position of General Manager, but only if they wero already in the Railway Department. The Bill was reported without amendment. Tho House rose at 1.50 a.m.