STATE LOANS.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1580, 25 October 1912, Page 3

STATE LOANS.

INQUIRY ENDED. SIR J. Q. FINDLAY RECALLEDREMUERA INCIDENTS. SOME EMPHATIC DENIALS. The. Vublic Accounts Committee of the House of Representatives yesterday carried to a conclusion its inquiry into tUo aiUmnistrattari of the Slatc-Guavnn.-tew\ Advances Dv-pi\Ttm«\t (LotaV A.\\U\ovvUes branch). Mr. J. B. Iliue presided.

Sir Joseph Ward gave further evidence. He said that he had never at nay time taken any action to induce the Advances Board to entertain favourably or consider any loan. He had always laid it down that tho Departments of State should carry on their business as business concerns apart altogether from the Minister. He nut in a letter from the clerk of the borough of Birkcnhead, onclosing a/ resolution expressing regret at tho action of the Minister for Finance in endeavouring to make political capital out of the fact that a loan had been granted to Hie Borough Council. That loan was granled for public works, but only after the requirements of the Advances Board had b°en fulfilled.

Objection, was raised by the Minister to such a letter being put in. He said that the same resolution had been forwarded to him, and he lind replied to it. The chairman (Mr. J. B. Hine) ruled that the letter could not be put in. Joseph Ward called the Hon. F. M. B. i'isher to give evidence regarding a statement he had made in the House suggesting, that a loan of ,£30,000 was granted to Tailuipe for political purposes prior to the by-election for Kangitikei. Mr. Fisher said that ho was not aware that tho hoard.had not ye) made nn advance to the borough of Taihape. Sir Joseph Ward: "1 think you will find ft has not made Mich an advance."

Mr. Fisher, in reply to further t|uesiions, said lift knew that the Advances Board was not in existence at thn time of tlie Kitiijdtikei by-election, but lie did know that the sum of ,£30,000 was lent bv (ho -Government (o the borough of Tnihane ."horlly before tlie by-election, and,, in fact, was known at the time of tho election.

Sir Joseph Ward said that Tie would call the. Superintendent of the State Adrances Department, and that witness would find that tho statement he had made was incorrect. Taihape Loans. Mr. Fisher now put in a statement about loans , granted to Taihape. lie said tbat about .£32,000 in all was advanced to tlie borough of. Taihape at various periods between 1508 and 1911. lu his opinion the fact that these advances were, being made toTaihape had a considerable effect on the ' elections that took placp there. Ho did not think there was a shadow of. doubt about that, He would not be surprised :td hear that tho advance of .£21,250 was made by the. Bank of New Zealand. He took'it that the. loan was made by the Government, and the money borrowed from the Bank of New Zealand. 'Sir J. AVard: I know as. a fact that the £21,250 was advanced by the Bank of New Zealand. Mr. Fisher:, Under the Loans to Local Bodies Act.

Sir J. Ward: No, it was not. , Mr. Fisher said Hint tho. debentures ' were signed by the Treasury. , ,Mr. Allen: , No doubt about that at all. £ "A Safe Seat." [ Sir Joseph Ward now questioned Mr. g Fisher about, an interjection he made in the House on Saturday morning, Serein- f ber 2S. When Sir Joseph Ward men- v tioned that the Borough of CampbeUtowil a had bernx refused a loan, Mr. Fisher in- 1: terjected, "It is a safe seat." Asked what he meant by this, Mr. Fisher said that .•' ill his opinion it had been a practice of s the late Government for some years past 1 to spend money in districts where they t wanted support. He could not say whet ther this applied to the State i Guaranteed Advances Department. £ He had not applied the interjection to what was done by the State Advances Board. Mr. Fisher neither do- 1 nied nor admitted making the interjection. He said that it seemed quite eyi- I dent that he did make it, but that he i had no recollection of doing so. To an- i other question Mr. Fisher said that he considered the whole system of State Ad- < ranees any Government. Sir J. Findlay's Evidence. Sir John Findlay was now recalled. Sil Joseph Ward directed the attention of the witness to a statement made in evidence before the Committee by Mr. Wilson eii"ineer to the Hemuora Eoad Board. Mr. Allen asked that the words used bv Mr. Wilson should b= produced and Sir Joseph Ward quoted from the official repprt of evidence at the point where Mr. Wilson described, an interview which he had with Mr. Cawkwell, then chairman of the Rcnuiera Road Board, in reference to tho payment of men, employed by the board, who had been given a holiday. Mr. Wilson said that Cawkwell told him that it would be all ri?ht and Hint the amount would not be charged to tho board. Fe added: "It might hayo bean in a joking way. but. he (Cawkwell) said that Sir John Findlay would pay Asked by Sir Joseph Ward whether there was any foundation for this statement, Sir John Findlay said that there wns absolutely none. Ho knew nothing whatever of thw happenings until they were draped out before this inquiry. Then for the first time, he knew of them. So little did he know about it that ho had not been aware when he was last before the Committee of what references made by Mr. Allen applied to. The Committee hnd done him a very great injustice— he did not say intentionally—which would not be suffered in any Court of Justice. On his last appearance before the Committee lie had been asked in a vague and entirely unintelligible way about n miy« ment to some -men at Kemuera. The interrogator gave him no information as to what he was proceeding upon. He (Witness) wm given un opportunity fo explicitly and clearly d»ny imputations, hi the ordinary course of justice wliero a witness wns in the hands of an interrogator he should be given an opportunity of immediately denying nny imputation against him. Instead, the evidence of tl-.ese witnesses had been given a start of a week, and only at that time of day was he given an opportunity of replying. fle was there realJy as a defendant, and had been called merely to protect himself. Mr. Alleri said that Sir John Findlay had been asked explicitly -whether he had promised nny payment His reply in. tho negative had been accepted. Sir J. Find'.ay contended that he was entitled to have the imputations explicitly stated. "If you, Sir, arc satisfied that 1 F received common justice," he added, addressing, the chairman, "I bow to your decision." Mr. Hine said that so far as tho commitlee was concerned, the witness had received quite fair treatment. Sir J. Findlay said that he shonld have been asked whether the statements of the witnesses were true or not. Mr. Allen said that an unjustifiable attncit was bein™ made on him. He repented that he had asked Sir John Findlay whether he had authorised nny payment. Witness had replied in the negative, and Hint reply had been accepted. Mr. Hiiiion: And you followed it up j when the witnesses came here. I No Authority Given. ' Sir, J. Findlay stated that ho did not authorise Mr. Cawkwell to act on his behalf in connection with his election in nnv wav whatever. Hβ had never paid the wages of any men—never authonsei or suggested any holiday being given, and had" never bespoken their support of nis candidature in nny way at all. He ask* ed leave of the committee to re-state suc- ' cinctlv the whole of his connection with the Kemuera loan transaction, and did so * on the lines of his previous evidence.. The deputation which interviewed him in •\nckland, he stated, consisted of nearly nil the members of the Romuera Road Board, tind of the strike leadois. Tie received the deputation i" the Ministerial office in the ordinary course of MinUteriiil work. T,i> Sir. •). Ward: lie knew iictlunc vhaisver about the two men who vrve said If ha vs been \<wl by thei'<".ijuen* Hoatl Board while canvosiini

for him. When Mr. Cawkwell first came to him about the loan he did not know what side of politico Mr. fawkv.i-Il was on. There was no mention of a comical election then or at: the deputation. The rea-011 for Mr. Cawkwell's activity, Sir John l-'imlliiy stated in furflier evidence, "was not that he loved me more but; that he loved Mr. Djekson less. There was an old long-standing feud between these two men. Cawkwell would have supported nnv man in preference to my opponent.' I ivent there as nn entire sh-anser.' 1 knew nothing of these people." To auollier quest ion witness said that C.'i irk well's action in addressing the Iteinnern employees was takeu without his knowledge or prii. ify and cerlainly without his instruction-.

The leading 'newspapers, .witness continued, had imputed to him some l;nowkAse »S Ulfse, hnpyionmss. Asked by whom the imputations mid been made' Sir John Findlay replied: "By witnesses first and by those who called the witnesses." The imputation in Mr. 11. M. Wilson's evidence, if made deliberately, was deliberately fake.

To Mt. Lee: If Mr. Allen had not information in his possession when .he questioned witness about the holiday given to Iho men nt Remuern then witness had very little to complain about. In his opinion Mr. Wilson's evidence was inadmissible; if it were admissible any streetcorner chatter might, be admitted as evidence. He considered that he should have been, given an opportunity of attending when Mr. Wilson gave his evidence and cross-examined him.

Mr. Leo asked whether witness would care to have Mr. Wilson recalled in order that he might cross-examine him. Sir John Findlaysaid that having made his statement he was quite content to let the matter «o to the public of the country.

One "of the questions put to Sir John Findlny in cross-examination was: "Who is Mr.'Semple?" Sir J. Findky: "I understand that Mr. Semplp is a gentleman who is qualifying for tho lloiifc of Representatives!" Mr. Poynton Recalled. Mr. J. W. Poynton, Superintendent of the State Advances Department, was now recalled by Sir Joseph Ward. He stated that no money wns lent: either by tho Advances Office or by the Treasury to Taihape in 1!ltl!>. No money had been advanced to Taihapo by the Stale-Guaran-teed Advances .Department or by the Treasury for electric lighting purposes. No loan of ,C 21,250 was made to ihe Taihape local body by a Government Department. Qiicstioned'abouttließemuera loan, witness -raid that neither the- telcßi-nm from Sir John Findhy nor the minute on that telegram by Sir" Joseph Ward hud any effect .011 him. So little impression did the telegram make on him that it was not communicated by the board, and the whole thing was overlooked. It v.as the proper thing where- a loan had been overlooked to send the papers round to individual members of tho board for approval. When the loan transaction was in hand, he did not know what electorate Homuera was in. He did not know Mr. Cawkwell, and had had no communication with him. Witness took a neutral position in politics,, and endeavoured to be loyal. to any Government that was in office.

Sir' Joseph Ward now again referred to Taihape. Ho ((noted from the journals of the House formal references tu a Taihnpo by-election for which the writ was returned on September 3, 1909. The StatcGiiarantecd Advances Board, witness staled, was not then in existence. Any statement that a loan had been made to Taih.ipe by the Advances Department tr tho Treasury prior to that by-election was incorrect.

To Mr. Pp.irce witness stated that, in ]90D and 1910 the borough, of Taihapo obtained loans from the Bank of New Zealand. These Joans were guaranteed by the State umbr the old system, which made provision for this being done. The recoml of these loins wxs for .£21,250, and was granted in 1910 Mr. I'ea-ce: Was this local body notified in Augii.st, 1909, that these loans would be granted by the bank and guaranteed by Iho Government - The local body was notified on December 1. To Dr. New nan: Witness stated that on August 30 the then Secretary to tho Treasury wrote to the clerk ot the Taihaps borough Cousjil" stating that th« steps taken in rcsJ.-J to raising loans appeared to be in onbr, and asking that othsr necessary papers and particulars should be supplied. Dr. Newman: So on August'3o'the Taihape people knew that, the loan was to be guaranteed by tlu State? Jlr. Po/nfoii: some steps hal still to l< , taken. 'J'ne State would guarantee tha io:m provided the steps required were taken.

To Mr. Tlin.v. Witness snid that in view of the expressed opinion of the SolicitorGoneral th 3 board felt that it would be improper to vnlv into any further engagements for loans.

To Sir Joseph Ward: The board ha 1 finally approved loans aggregating £2,ifli.OOO. fie ticl not renumber that in tlie proceedings before the committee political influence had been suggested except in the case of tho Kemucra loan. There was no impropriety in Sir James Carroll signing the approval foi the Wairoa Harbour loan. When the Minister for Finance was away from Wellington, another Minister hnd to act for him. Finallv, Mr. I'oynton objected, as the Valuer-Gener.il hai done by lettor on the previous day, lo the term "round-robin, , ' which had been applied lo a document which had beer, before the committee in. evidence. A Miramar Loan. Jlr. Allen asked leave to read a statement received through his secretary from Mr. E. A. Wrigiit, formerly member ''or Wellington South. Mr. Wright had stated (hat tho borough of Mirnmar, which had been, mention-d in connection with a, loan, was not in the electorate of 'Wellington South, but in Wellington Suburbs, which, at tho time when tha loan was granted, was represented by Mr. J. P. Luke, a supporter of the (lieu Government. ' Sir J. Ward objected lo tho admission of the stateme?it, but said that he would not mind Jlr. Wright being called. The chairman uphold the objection. The committee adjourned at 1 p.m. until i p.m. A, Final Sitting. Tho committee resumed at 4 p.m., and heard the evidence of Colonel l<. J. Collins, Controller- and Auditor-General. Questioned by Sir Joseph Ward, witness said that he was secretary to the Treasury for somo years. He was familiar i with the procedure under the old Loans (o Local Bodies Act. He knew of no caso in which political pressure had been brought to bear in connection with any Joan. Hβ remembered the loan fn-m the Bank oS New Zealand to Taihape eavljin 1909. The loan was made under an Act passed in 1908. The file relating to the Taihapo lean of ,£21,250 was handed to Colonel Collins. He stated that tho loan was made by the Bank of New Zealand under the guarantee of the Government. No political influence was used in connection with the Government guarantee. Tho Taihapo Borough made its own arrangements with the Bank of New Zealand. No attempt had ever been mado by Sir Joseph Ward or any other Minister to influence him in connection with' any loan. To Mr. Pearce: After tho approval of the loan by tho Crown Law officers in August, 1909, the Government guarantee, would still require the sanction, of tho Minister. He knew of no case in which a loan provisionally sanctioned had not been finally approved by tho Minis-

tor. To Dr. Newman: • When tho Taihapo Borough Council got his letter of August 30 they could understand that the loan would certainly l>o granted if they made out debentures in the proper form. The examination of tho witness beniE! concluded, the chairman announced tint this ended the inquiry. He asked t!if> committee to deliberate for a tow minutes before adjourning.

GRADING OF TEACHERS,

THE QUESTION OF SEX. IBy Tcleeraph—l'rt'ss Association.) Auckland, October 23. The much-debated question of jcx in relation to teachers was debated by the Education Board to-day. Jt was resolved that a paragraph having reference to the eligibility of certain female teachers for the position of second-assistant in schools of grade X contained in the chief inspector's report o\ Uic grading of teachers, approved by (he board on August 2K be rleleted, Die present not being consutvml a favourable time to give effect to the fame. Also thai the list referred to therein of fifteen fomale teachers'be cancelled, flic .-.mis not being in nramiance ivilli Hie scliejnp of grading adopted by the board. 51 was decided to advertise for a male assistant for Mount Eden School.

At a large and enthusiastic meeting 0/ Auckland women teachers, held on Friday evening, the following resolution was carried unanimously: (1) That this meeting desires to express its hearty confidence in the chief inspector and his colleagues in their efforts to draw up a sound and just grading scheme; (2) that this meeling deplores the recent action of the board in delaying the appointment of Miss Hawkins, the most highly-graded applicant for the position at Mount Eden School, and considers that by such action thn board is violating the fundamental principles on which any sound grading fchenio must bo based; (3) that this meeting considers that: the recent action of the board is the "severest blow ever dealt" at tho great body of loyal and devoted women teachers in its service, and will tend to kill enthusiasm in all the women teachers, and seriouslv impair the efficiency of the service; (-1) that: this meeting hopes the chairman of the Board of Education will publicly deny the following statements, which, according to « press report, were made by him at the last board meeting: "The chairman (Mr. G. J. Garland) ?aid that them was evidently a screw loose .somewhere." "Out of .1] applicants for the post at Mount Eden School, 15 were chosen for final selection, and among the remaining 15 there were teachers whose grading ran right up to that of the one chosen. He was not going to believe that some form of patronage had not been shown." "The chairman said that if fomale teachers wore annoiutod to such positions it would mean that others would do part of their work while they drew the full pay"; (f>) that this meeting to draw the attention of the board to the fact that under the Education Act, the second assistant has no specified duties, and that in various city and suburban schools women hove performed, and are performing, satisfactorily and efficiently, the duties usually assigned by headmasters to their second assistants.