A LOAN INQUIRY.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1579, 24 October 1912, Page 6

A LOAN INQUIRY.

ELECTION METHODS

CAMPAIGNING AT REMUERA. MR. CAWKWELL'S EVIDENCE, SOME VEHY FKANK STATEMENTS. The Public Accounts Committee of the Hou.so of Representatives yesterday continued its inquiry into the administration of the State Guaranteed Advances Department (Local Authorities Branch) tindor past Governments. Mr. J. B ifj ne presided.

IJie chairman said that a loiter hart been received front Mr. F. W. Flanagan (Valuer-Geiieral). Mr. Flanagan „ta'lc<l that he had admitted, in his evidence before the committee, signing a document which was spoken of as a round-robin. Me objected to the term round-robin, which implied a document with signatures so arranged that it could not" be seen who had signed first. The document he had signed was an ordinary one, signed in the ordinary way, and showed no evidence of suspicion, caution, or fear. The chairman moved that the letter he attached to the evidence, and this was agreed to.

Sir Joseph Ward was tinder examinawhen the inquiry was interrupted on Friday last. The chairman now asked him to stand down' until'"Mr. Cawkwell had been exaininesd.

Sir Joseph Ward consented,

C. A. Cawkwell, formerly chairman of the Kemuera Road Board, 'and now clerk to Hie Waitemata County Council, was called.

Examined by Sir Joseph Ward, witness said that he was chairman of the Romucra Itoad Board in 1911, when the board applied for a loan of J:85,000 from the State Advances Department Application was made in March or April, 1911, and the loan was provisionally approved on May 22, 1911.

Sir Joseph Ward: AVas any political influence exercised by your board in connection with tho application for that loan ? ' *»

AVitness: Absolutely none. There was no occasion for it. The Government had passed tit's statute. I was at the time treasurer for three or four local bodies. This'money was said, to be available. It was a matter of "ask and ye shall receive." He knew the troubles of local bodies, that this cheap money was available, and applied for it. There was no question'of influence. "I emphatically swear." said the''witness, "that there was no influence whatever."

Sir Joseph AVard: Neither through your member nor through any Minister?—"No, .t"i", the whole of the papers were drawn by myself and the clerk."

Asked to explain the necessity for the loan, witness slated that the extension of the tramway from Auckland lo liemnera increased the population of the latter place from 3000 lo GOOD. There was .a reservoir holding only 20,000 gallons. In the previous summer it got down to a foot of water. It was a case of a water famine ftffectinjr six thousand people, unless a reservoir holding 1,000,000 gallons could be provided. As to drainage works, there were six thousand people absolutely without drainage, and there had been an epidemic of diptheria and fever. The money could not have been obtained from private sources at less than five per cent., apart from sinking fund. If the monoy could not have been obtained it would have meant, loss ot life. That was the opinion of the District Health Officer.

Sir J. Ward: When you were summoned by the chairman of this committee, you advised him that you'could not ccine because you were ill. Were you ill?

Witness said. that he was. When he received Mr. Jline's communication he was suffering from influenza. His eyes were running with water. Ho bad no reason to stop away from the committee. When be rend the newspapers he wanted to come. He knew Mr. Wilson.

.Mr. Allen: What local body is he engineer for?

Witness: He has been turned out of most of .them. He. was with the Waitemata County at one lime. Mr. Allen: Did you take part in the last general election?— Yes. Were yon a member of Sir John Findlay's committee? —No. I was presumed to be, but I never attended a meeting. Addressing the Men. You addressed the men working at Uemuera ?—Yes. And gave them a hoi/dayf—Yes. AVhat was your reason for giving them a holiday? Witness stated that he received an invitation from Iho waterworks foreman to go up and address the men. After three or four solicitations he went up ono morning. While he addressed them the rain fell in torrents. When he had finished (hey nil walked up to the top of the hill. Wilkins said what about the men being paid, and.witness replied: You are the foreman, do what you like. Did you make any statement to the men that you proposed to give them a holiday on pay?— No. In the course of my re-" marks I made no reference whatever to a holiday! On seeing the men standing round wet, he thought it the most humane thing to give them a Imlidav. Did you tell Mr. Wilson th'nt Sir John Findlay would pay the men for the holiday?

Witness: I never had any authority from Sir John Find-lav.

Mr..Lee: That is not what you are asked.

Sir J. Ward: Did you tell Mr. Wilson at his office that you had authority from Sir John Fiudlay for the payment'of the men ?

. Witness: I give an emphatic denial to any statement that 1 had any conversation with Mr. Wilson on that point. I have been at loggerheads with Mr. Wilson for some months past. I tabled a motion for his dismissal by the board. He has sworn to ruin me and to leave no stone unturned to ruin me round Auckland. Had you any authority from Sir John Findlay to pay any of the men working in Rcmuera?—Absolutely none. Do you know anything of two men who were stated in evidence here to be up there engaged in canvassing for Sir John Findlay?—l knew nothing'of it until I read about it in one of the papers. As an outcome of this inquiry ?—Yes. You had no authority to pay 'anyone in connection with their wages* from Sir John Findlay or anyone- in his behalf. As a matter of fact have you paid any of those men outside the board?—No, sir, I have not.

Who paid their wages for the day?— I understand, the Remuera Hoad Board.

To further otiestions witness said that the Remuera Board applied to the Advance* Department for an advance of .£IO,OOO, because the works forvhich the money was wanted were .urgent. In order to get the work done he hypothecated the loan out of the general fund of the Road Board. When they went to Sir John Findlay he did not seem to know about the loan. Ton thousand pounds, the first instalment of the loan, was received three."" days after the second ballot. Xo portion of the money was paid before tie general election. "For the Government." Did you ask tho men to support the then Government when you addressed them?—My recollection is that I spoke generally for the Government. added that tin! Stale Guaranteed Advances Act appealed to him as an application of the principle of the greatest good to the greatest number. Tho conditions of the Statute impressed him favourably, and ho consiiTcrcd that it would be good to have this Government still in power to get cheap money. They had other works coining on. Witness was also questioned by Sir Joseph Ward regarding a Wnitemata loan. He stated that all the members of the ' Wnitemata County' Council but one were supporters of Mr. Massoy, and that the count.v hntl experienced no difficulty in obtaining a Joan. Mr. .Lee: Ton and Mr. Wilson arc not on tho best of terms?—" No.". Yon say lie has been turned out of several positions?—"l will withdraw that, and say they dropped him." Who' has dropped him?—"Waitomata has dropped him. 1 wished lo drop him at Remuera because of masterly inactivity and other matters. Wnitemata asked liim to resign, and he did.'-' You know Wilkinsr—"l know him as foreman." Is he a credible man?—"l know nothing about him." An Open Invitation. Witness eniiliiiued that Hie iw<k l|it iioni ill-, .VYilkius asking him. .to address..

(be men at the reservoir did not suggest Mr. Lee: Mr. Wilkins was not particularly well known In you, was he?—"l knew hint as foreman of works." Then with no idea as to what abstract question yuu were going to address the nien on, you go up for the purpose of making some address?—" Yes, of course, on behalf of lite Government that provided us with money." "A Partisan of Dr, Findlay," Mr. Lee: You were asked to address the men on any question. What led you lo think that" you were to speak on that subject. It might have been about that striker—"No, Wilkins knew that I was a partisan of Dr. I'indlay at the time. 1 suppose he got me up there to address the men on behalf of Findlny."

Further questioned: He had not intended to address tho men on any particular subject except finance. lie said, in addressing tho men, that the Government might not be a perfect one, but that it had given facilities.for carrying on public works, and lie admired it in that respect. Did you suggest that these men should support, the then Government?— The inference was there. I did not. name any particular candidate. Was the. burden of your speech to induce these men to support the then Government?— Yes, that was my object in going up there. Conversely, did you suggest to tho men that the next Government would probably repeal or do away with this measure?— Yes, I did. He added that he said Mr. Massey would cut down loans to local bodies which he did not think would be beneficial to local bodies in the district. Mr. Ma-ssey was a friend of his. He did not criticise Mr. Mnssey, but his policy. Mr. Lee: 'Chat being so, do you think it would influence these men at the election if some of this loan money was supplied shortly before tho election?—No, it would have no influence whatever, because. I carried on the works out of the General Fund, The working man does not care a hang where you get money from so long as you get it. Further examined by Mr. Lee:' When ihey interviewed Sir John Findjny about the loan, he was rather .short, with them. They told him that they had come to him as a Minister of the Crown.

To Mr. Myers: He addressed about thirty men. Ho was informed that there were only six Faradl electors among the men. Ho addressed the men because he was gratified at. the passage of this measure. He took mi interest in social and political questions. He was pretty ignorant—but live and learn. It was more important to safeguard life and health by providing drainage in small boroughs than to provide money for counties. Intended to be Useful. To Dr. Newman: He was on the deputation which interviewed Sir John Findlay. An emergency meeting of the board was called in town, and it was agreed to go. Only one member was absent, but the clerk was not there. He had addressed men before politically. He had done sa in Waitemata. His object was to induce those men to vote for the Government. Sir J. Ward: Very sensible, too. Dr. Newman: You meant the address to be' useful?— Yes. . Further questioned: He did not think the motey came any sooner as a result of the meeting with Sir John Fimllay, The object of the deputation was to hurry up the loan. Dr. Newman: Do you know the provisions of tho Corrupt Practices Act:—No, I have noven looked at them. Sir J. Ward: Sir John Findlay- was not a candidate at Hint time. Dr. Newman: Not in November? Sir J. Ward: No. Dr. Newman (to witness): At this time when yon went with the deputation, did you know that Sir John Fimllay was a candidate?— Oil, yes. He was iii Auckland for the purpose. I did not care what lie was there as. We simply went tr/ him in an official capacity. • ,' Witness replied further questions that when he addressed the men he did not know theiji "from a crow," and did not know whether they knew 'he was chairman of the Board. . To Mr. Allen: Ho thought he addressed the men at the rc?ervoir three days before the.sccond ballot. "It Amounts io That." Mr. Allen: And you gave the men a holiday?— Well, it amounts to that. Wilkins asked mo what about it, and I told liiin that be was foreman. It was' not usual on these Rcmucra works, witness continued, to give men a holiday on full pay. If it were said that these men were paid by the hour he would not deny it. lie did not discuss this matter of pay- I in? the men with Mr. Wilson.

Mr. Allen: If Wilson swears that you did, will you sav that he is telling an untruth? '

Witness: I think that he is making a mistake. I don't think him an untruthful man. Wilkins, he continued, seemed to him a man who would not deliberately lie. The other man was malicious.

Mr. Allen: Docs the Ttemuera Road Board allow ils foreman of works to give men a holiday on full pay?— They confirmed tho account.

Mr. Allen: When you addressed these men three days before the second ballot had you any answer from the Advances Board in regard to the loan?

Witness proposed to read a letter dated October, and then asked .Mr. Allen to repeat his question. Mr. Allen did so. Witness: We had an assurance that was sent to Sir John Fiudlay that the matter would be expedited and the loan gone on with at onto,. ' ■

Mr. Allen: Do you think that would influence any hian's vote?—ln that particular electorate?

Mr.'Allen: In any electorate?—l don't know that these men were aware of.the reply. This thins was all <lone between ourselves. I don't think it was bruited abroad thai Sir John Findlay had done this or that. I don't think the men knew Anything about it. In addressing the men witness staled that the next Government would probably cut down any more advances.

Mr. Allen: Don't you think ,£84,000 enough for Remncra?—For the present, yes.

To further questions: It'woMd be dirty on the part of the Government not to go on with a loan to a local body which had been provisionally approved. Their object in going to Sir John Findlay was to get him to "shake them up in Wellington." A Man Named Cromwell. In reply to Mr. Allen, witness said that, he knew n ni'jn named Cromwell. Cromwell was employed by the Remuera Board nt a scoria pit. He was Mr. Dickson's leading man, t and got paid on election day "for running about. Witness continued that he spoke to Cromwell about the election, but did not discuss Cromwell's position as an employee of the board. A member of the board named Bond—a strong temperance advocate—came to him to compla'in about Cromwell. Bond came to witness "frothing at the mouth," and said: This is a nice state of affairs. Here is Cromwell going round for "Sam" (that is Mr. Dick-' 'sou, explained witness) in front of mo with a temperance ticket for "Sam" in one pocket and a brer ticket for "Sam" in the other. I want you to sack him. "I said (to Bond) I will tell him that he is not wise," added witness. Cromwell, lie remarked, was one of his adherents in local matters. Another member of the board, Mr. Pulfnn, also spoko to him about Cromwell. Witness told Cromwell: "Guard what you do in political matters. It has absolutely nothing to do with ihe; do what you like, but you are up against old Bond, and be careful what you do." He told Cromwell not to take offence, and that he did not want him to stop canvass. i:ig. Mr, Allen: Would not. that emplovee of the board think twice before heNvould go j electioneering again?—He did go'electioneering again. A Ticket Dropped. He took no notice of your warning?— I think he dropped the Temperance ticket for.Mr. Dickson. He did no! interfere with Cromwell, but advised him as a friend. Mr. finnan asked whether these questions were relevant. The chairman upheld the objection. Mr._ Allen said that he would not pursue his questions, but added that the committee was inquiring into political inllnence.

Witness said that he, was told afterwards that the sis Parnell electors among the men whom he addressed were Mr. Dickson's men. Tho foreman came to him. and I old hiin thai, he had wasted his time. Afterwards these men told tales to Mr. Dieksuli. His object ill addresiius tks u«a .wns to convert Mr,

Dickson's men-to the (then) Government. In reply to Sir Joseph Ward, witness said that the letter dated October, to which lie had referred, was from tlio clerk of (iie Roinuera Road Board to the Superintendent of tho Advances Office, asking whether tho application, papers for tlio .f.84,000 loan were all in order, lie continued that prior to tho deputation gcing to Sir John i'indlay, the board had made direct representations to the Advances Department. ]le did not know whether the Department replied. So far as lie knew the reply to Sir .T. Findlay's telegrain was not published. Sir J. Ward: Was the Temperance supporter who was frothing at the mouth n supporter of Mr. Dickson?—No, ho was a Mack supporter. Witness stated that in his experience Mayors and chairmeu of local bodies had always taken a particular sido in politics, lie took it that a Mayor had-tho same liberty in a matter of that kind as any other man. A Psychological Question. Dr. Newman: When you addressed these men were you not usjng political influence?—l sec your point. It is a psychological questiotiNs it not? Mr. Allen: A psychological moment too! To Sir Joseph Ward: Witness said that his object in going up was to point out the good finalities of tho Government.

To Dr. Newman: Ho had used his position on behalf of tho Government. Ho did not mention Sir John Findlay's name. It was influence for the Government and v not for Sir John Findlay. No pressure was brought to bear by him upon tlioso men as an employer. To Mr. Hnnan: It was recognised that he was out for Findlny and the "Government and he went up there to speak as a citizen of New Zealand. He did not speak in his capacity as chairman. To Mr. Allen: He had no knowledge of the fighting fund and had not subscribed lo it. Sir Joseph Ward: You had. better examine Mr. Dickson about the fighting fund. Mr. Allen: Did you lead Mr. Wilson to believo that you would bear any port of tho cost of. paying the men?— Absolutely none. To Mr. Hine: The custom was prevalent in Parnell of knocking men off in. order to address them. He saw nothing wrong in it, even if the men were being paid with public money. The Member for Parnell. J. S. Dickson, member for Parnell, was the next witness. To Mr. Allen: He knew Cromwell. Witness continued: "He came to me and told me that the chairman of tho board hart sent for him and that he went, down to his house and that he (the chairman) advised him that he had better not. work for me or he would lose his position as some members of the board did not like it. He resigned from my committee and did not work for me after that." • Mr. Dickson said that ho knew bv hearsay that the chairman had addressed the men on the mountain. He brought the matter up a.t a " board meeting and obtained particulars, as to the number of hours worked and the number of hours paid, on the day in question. Nona.of the men worked more than 3i hours, and two of the men paid were oft all day. These two men were away canvassing for Sir John Findlay. Jhe matter was discussed by members of the board privately, but not at a board meeting. He was chairman-'of the board at the present time, and a' member of the board when the deputation' went to Sir John Findlay. Ho was. not! notified about the deputation, and there was no record of it in the minutes of the hoard. To Mr. Hunan: He did not suggest that the Government should not have advanced the money to the board, but. maintained that it should have been held over. The board had applied ■ for it to be paid on January 1, 1912. He knew of no reason for expediting the matter unless it was for political purposes to help his opponent.

Sir Joseph Ward: Is it not a fact that you had to apologise to the chairman for! slanderous statements made about tho engineer? ■ . ■ : Witness: T withdrew statements ,mndc, to Mr. Cawkwell. He admitted saving: "I certainly,apologise to Mr. Cawkwell." The committee adjourned until 10.30 a.m. to-day.