THE SPEAKER'S DUTY.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1578, 23 October 1912, Page 8

THE SPEAKER'S DUTY.

"THESE WORDS ARE UNPARUAMENTARY." STATEMENT BV SIR JOSEPH WARD. Tho Speaker roso at 10.30 p.m., stating that it was his duty to call tho- attention of tho member for Awarua to tho fact that it had lx?en reported by tho chairman of the Public Accounts Committee that at a sitting of that Committee tho right hon. gentleman had used , tho words that it was a downright picoo of impertinence, that the hon. gentleman ■ had refused to withdraw these words, and that , tho Committee had directed that these words bo taken down and reported to tho'House. "In my opinion," continued Mr. Speaker, "theso words are unparliamentary. It is my duty to ask tho lion, member whether he has anything ' to explain or withdraw. If ho has no statement or withdrawal to make, it will be his duly to retiro from tho Houso while tho House decides what action to . take." Sir Joseph Ward said ho regretted ho ' could not withdraw tho words, and ho proceeded to give his explanation. Having, as Minister, had control of an important Department, the operations of which were under review, he had volunteered to give evidence on oath. Ho was not called by any member of the Committee. In giving evidence on oath ho was being questioned by the Minister for Finance, and th© Chairman of tho Committee, who' in his (Sir Joseph Ward's) judgment at various times throughout the proceedings of tho Committee, had shown a great deal of bias. Mr. Allen: Order. Mr. Speaker: I don't think tho honourable, member has a right to make that statement with regard to th© Chair. Sir Joseph Ward: Well, political bias™' who had shown n. great deal of political bins, at that juncture interjected, without; referenco to tho Minister' of Finance—in-' torject'ed in a most offensive manner. Mr. Speaker said tho honourable mora, ber should not question the dignity of tho Chair. • ■ ■ • Rather be Censured than Withdraw. Sir Joseph Ward: Well, Mr. Speaker, I regarded it as offensive—as extremely offensive—that ho should interject, which I, looked upon as a, personal insult—interjected that I was not answering the question'correctly. I .retorted that I had tho right 10 answer tho question in such a,way as I thought proper, and as tho outcome of tho interlude between us I ■ used the expression contained in that re-, port. And I. want to say that I would rather bo censured by tho Houso than withdraw them as far as tho member for , Stratford is concerned. I regret that I havo to take this course, because after a , long political life in this country I have , never been in confiict with tho Speakei of the day, or with tho .Chairman of Committees of the day, nor.have I ovci. been offoris'iva to any chairman of anv committee of tho Houso. He .went on to say • that he had to draw the lino somewhere, but until the particular incident occurred he had not used one offensive word at tho . committee, meetings. He regretted that' he had. committed, a technical-breach of tho Standing Orders. But the chairman had not shown tho slightest' indication that he didnot intend his remarks to be offensive, and he had not given him (Sir Joseph Ward) tho slightest c'hanco of withdrawing liis remark, which ho would othenviso have done. When tho matter went before the committee that morning he, personally, was in hopes that there might havo been an amieablo settlement. At tho commencement of tho business ho suggested that tho committee should de- ■ liberate'. 1 Tho chairman immediately expressed a wish that the press should be .. presont.'i'anil ho''(Sff I .Joseph' Ward), in^""'- 1 turn consented! Thn only object he had in suggesting that tho committeo deliberate was tb,givo effect to what the Houso dosired—to com* to an amieablo conclusion.' Tho resolution tho Houso' sent to that oommittce_was never before the com- , mitteo for consideration. The honourable ' member for Stratford had said so himself' that night. Ho (Kir Joseph Ward) wan : asked to withdraw tho words before any ' meml)er of the committee had time to '■ consider it. "I submit myself to tho House," he concluded, "and I will whatever judgment the Houso pronounces \ upon me." (Applause from Opposition members.) Sir Joseph Ward thon left tho Chamber. MOTION OF CENSURE. MOVED BY THE PREMIER. ' ■ THE DIGNITY OF THE CHAIR. Tho Hon. W. F. Masscy (Prime Minister): I regret exceedingly, sir, that it Hob/ becomo my duty, as Leader of tho House,; to move a resolution in connection with tho unfortunate incident which occurred a few days ago at tho. Public AcbinjiVi Committeo, an incident which has beci. discussed at great length to-day and yes- '-, terday, and has. occupied much of the precious time of Parliament. I think that,, in moving this resolution, members generally will understand that I am not speaking from any party point of view, I am not attempting to mako political . capital out of what has taken place. I move tho resolution just as unwillingly in.. tho caso of Sir Joseph' Ward as I would in tho case of ono of my own colleagues or any ono of the members who work with and support ono on this side of tho House."\\~o conduct our Parliamentary business "on tho understanding that every niomlwr of Parliament is bound to support tho l dignity of the' Chair, and is bound to sup-' port the rulings of that member who has been chosen for the timo being to preside over a branch of tho Legislature or any committee. If a member of tho Houso does not agree with a ruling of the ; Speaker or that of a chairman of a committeo ho has a'proper and Parliamentary method providid by which ho can call the-' attention of his fellow-members- to what. has been done, and ask them to express' an opinion thereupon. I regret that Sir-' Joseph Ward, member for Awarua, has not taken advantago of this course. It is admitted in tho first instance, that , the member for Awarua used unparlia< mentary language to tho Chairman of tho Public Accounts Committeo when, in reply to a.question asked by the Chairman, or a ruling by the Chairman, Sir Joseph Ward is reported as having said that it was a downright piece of impertinence on the part of tho Chairman of the Committee. Sir, you have ruled that the ex- ! prcssion used by Sir Joseph Ward was not- onlv out of order, but was a breach' of privilege. Sir Joseph Ward, after being called upon to withdraw, refused to do so. Like every other member of tho House, I regret that'advantage was not, taken of the opportunity afforded -when* the House referred tho matter back yesterdav to the Public- Accounts Committee. I thought then that a splendid opportun- , itv was afforded to bring about an amici able and dignified and honourable fctlle- ' mont between the two members pavticu-• larlv concerned—a' settlement creditable to t'hem and satisfactory to every member of Parliament. I regret that the oppor- : tnnitv was not availed of. There is only ono thins left for m ° in do -. l am , mov " ing- absolution on lines similar to those of resolutions which have been moved on similar occasions in the Houso of heprc seiilativos in the past."The Prime Minister then moved:— -

"That this-House expresses its re. gret that the right hon. member for Awarua has not thought proper to withdraw the words tliat have Wen taken down and reported to vhe Uoibo by the Chairman of tho Public Accounts .Committee." Former Occasions. Mr. -T. Hanan (Invercareill) ' said . that when Mr.' Massey, then Leader of tho Opposition, was adjudged guilty of a. broach of privilego in February last, Sir Joseph Ward, then Prime Minister, dirt not attempt to moto out the punishment or oonsuro which the present Prime Minister was proposing to mete out now, Mr.' Ilanan also referred, as ho mid other members had dono earlier in the ilny', to tho nttitudo taken by members noi- sitting as Ministers on tho occasion of th.i Eussell incident some years ago. Pf '-.o«l thought that the Prime Minister would have given

way to the generous impulses with whict h© knew'him to b© endowed. Tho Hon. Jus. Allen said that Mr, Hanan s speech was unfair. In the present.oaso Sir Joseph Ward had refused twice, when asked by the chairman of'tke committee, and again when asked by the speaker, to withdraw the words ho hac used. There was no parallel between this caso and.the proceedings that occurred during the short session 111 February. On that occasion, Mr. Mnssey made a public withdrawal and apologised. The Prime Minister had done the least that ho could do Under the -circumstances. Ho had moved only that tho House express its regret that Sir Joseph Ward had not withdrawn the words. An Amendment Proposed. Mr. J. Robertson (Otaki) moved as an amendment:— . "That this Hon;o, while recognising that it is the duty'of a member to withdraw-any expression ruled by the Speaker' or 'chairman to be unparliamentary; considers that in the case of the member for Awarua the ' Clroilm*stances were Such as to warrant the House in proceeding no further in the matter." Mr. Robertson said that when a similar amendment was moved some years ago in reference to ,Captain Russel, it was supported by'eight members now sitting'on % the Treasury.tenches, includin'' four Ministers (Messrs. Massey, Allen, Hcrries, and I'raser). . .. Mi-. Bell: And opposed by Sir Joseph ' Ward. , ! . .' ■ j Mr. Robertson said that of the members ' who, had opposed the amendment on the former occasion he had spoken of, only four, remained in the House. Mr. W. A, iVeitch (Wanganui)'Sdtfiftd, ed the amendnijnt. He said that the member for Otaki had proposed this amend- . \ raent,, and, he had' seconded it because Ihcy, as an intermediate party, felt that it was their duty. to conciliate, between the other tivo parties.. Ho was'not, and never had been, a great admirer of the member for'Awarua, but lie did feel that , Sir Joseph' Ward was ft- defeated leader. Ho was in the'ditch politically, and it was hard that a foot should bo put on his ncclc. The impression that tho amendment .was intended ,to convey was that there had been a .quarrel between two hon. ' members, and, he. believed; that that was as near tliti :truth-..as it was possible to get. -If-the amendment Were defeated he would certainly'support the motion. The Hon.lV Buddo. (Kniapoi) said it was impossible to assume that Sir Joseph Ward used the words complainad of otherwise thaU under extreme provocation. He therefore urged that tho amendment ought tb be accepted.by the Government and passed by the House. Mr. L. M. lsitt (Cliristcluirch North) Baid there was party bias in tho submitting of the motion, and he would vote for' the-amendment. Mr. W.; D..' S. " Macdonald (Bay of Plenty) sn id he would support the amendment, but he Objected to the spOecli made by the, member for Wangnmii in seconding tho amendment, in suggesting that 116 -. moved it. out of pity for Sir Joseph Ward. The member for Awarua did not want til© °*£" e House; he wanted only justice. Uho Hon.. R. M'Kenzie (Motueka) expressed surprise and dissatisfaction at the action of the Government in rcjard to'the matter. *< He; defended Vigorously the actions,'and the character, and the political career of the member for Awarua. Mr. T. Buxton (Teniuka).' supported the emeudment.- ' Mr.. G. W. Russell (Avon) - said' he would support the : amendment, and 'he thanked the members Of the Labour .party , for . Mr. J. Payne; (Greyi Lyrin) said'that, bypassing thOMiniendment the'Hou'te ; would not only do' aiSty bnt tin'act of . justice. "vq.;.J. The Motion Carried. The Houso went -to a- division on the amendment at 8 minutes before midnight'. The 'amendment was lost by 38 votes to 33. .following, was the division list:— Against the amendment (38).—Allen. Anderson, Bell," J. Bollard, R. F.'Bollard, Hraduey, Buchanan, liuick, Clark, i)ick-, son, Escott, 'Fisher, Fraser, ' Gutlirie, Harris, Hordmau, -Lajie, „ Lee, MalciSlm, ,'Jinssey, 'Di'. A. if. A'ew- - man,; : E.' Newman, Nosworthjy Okoy, Pearce,' Pofflare, R. H. Rhodes,' F. W. Rhodes, Scott, ~F. ,H. Smith, ...Stathdm, • Bvkes, G.'M. Thomson, Wilkinson, Wilton, Young. . .... . For , the amendment. (33).—Atmore, Brown, Buddo, Buxton,. Carroll, Colvin, Craigie, Davey, Dickie, Ell, Forbes, Glover, Hanan,.Hindmarsh, lsitt, Lauren- . Eoiv.M'Callum, Mac Donald, . M'Kenzie, Myers, Ngata, Parataj Payne, Poland, Rangihiroa, Robertson, Russell,- Seddon, Sidey, R. W. Smith, • J. C. Thomson, Yeitch, Witty. /.. .-' .; ; A division was taken on the motion immediately afterwards, and' it was "declared carried by 3D votes to 31. Mr. W. T. Dickie, however, .said that his name, had been wrongly. l onsitted from the -noes, making tho vote 39-32,„ , ... Mr. Veitcli, as, he ..indicated he would, voted for the'motion'."* • Announcing; the. Resolution . Mr. Speaker, instructed the Sergeant-at-Arms to bring in the member for Awarua, and Sir 'Joseph : Wnrd re-entered ' tho Chamber amid applause from the Opposition members. | Mr. Speaker : ' The Right Honourable Sir Joseph Ward, it is'my duty to communicate to'yon the resolution which has been come to by this House with regard: to the words which you have used in the • Public Accounts Committee, and which were ordered by that committee to bo taken down, and reported by that .committee' to this 'House,. which words you declined to withdraw when called upon by the Speaker of the House to do so. (Air, Speaker read the resolution.) Statement by Sir J. Ward. - Sir. Josepll\ Ward said: .Mr. Speaker,with your permission I would like to say , how very much I regret that circumstances, which I felt to be necessary, have caused me to incur the displeasure oi this.honourable-House. I need hardly assure members of the Horn*' that it 10 with very deep regret'thiit I have been compelled-to take the.course I have pursurd. Looking, at the, matter as dispassionately as. l r couldj-I recognised that X owed a .duty to - the ■ country,- and a higher duty- -still - to- myself. In <111 active, public • career, extending a 3 ua F te '''.°f a.century, he continued, wnile he had many times incurred the displeasure of his opponents and soineof his friends, he had never in a committee or in any other place attempted to.do anything in tho shape of. "ragging a brother and he hoped that so long as ho was in public life lie would, never do so. If he had not felt deeply the nisult levelled at him— Mr. HerriesOrder! . r - Speaker: I think tho hon. member 116 °" loi \ there. (Opposition applause.) Sir Joseph Ward said -that if ho had: not. thought an. insult was levelled against him ho would not . have taken the firm and consistent stand he had. He had watched very carefully from the beginning of the proceedings whether tliere was any indication from tho gentleman with whom ho had been in conflict that he had not intended to be offensive. If Ihsre had been any such indication he would at once have withdrawn the remarks, and apologised to the Committee. If the conflict bod remained between • the hon. member for Stratford and himself he would not have regarded it as he had regarded it, but once the committee had passed the resolution to report llim to the Houso there was 110 other course' open to him than to allow the matter to go before the House. Then there was no other course open than to accept the censure of the House. He accepted it in all humility, having put on record a strong protest ngaiust the partial conduct of a representative of tho people occupying tho position of a chairman of a committee who ought at all times to be impartial, whatever, side of politics lie was 011. He thanked hon. members who had spoken in his favour, and hall done him the honour of voting for him. He acceptcd tho decision of tho House with, equanimity, believing that h« conlrl have taken 110 other course in his desire to do what was right as a public man. (Opposition applause.)

CHILD WAS CHOKING. "For tho first six months of my daughter's life she was continually attacked with croup, and was often black in the face from choking," -writes Mrs. Elizabeth Davics, 10 Browning St., Sth. i'arra, Vic. "Wo did not know what to do, the Lodge medicine having failed. I • then gave her . niamWnin's Cough Remedy, and'we have had iio trouble since."—Advt-