CENSURED BY THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1578, 23 October 1912, Page 8

CENSURED BY THE HOUSE.

THE "IMPERTINENCE" INCIDENT.

SIR J. WARD REFUSES TO WITHDRAW.

ANOTHER HOT DEBATE.

_ ; No progress was made yesterday by the Public' Accounts 'Committee' of 'the.House of Representatives with the inquiry which it has been instructed to make into tho administration of the State-Guaranteed 'Advances, Department, (local authorities braricli)"und6r- past Governments. Tho ■whole of yesterday's sitting, was devoted to. a discussion'.of'the'incident which occurred; last (when Sir Joseph Ward, thon on, oath as a witness,; withdrew; from'the""committee and from the room) and subsequent-developments arisincident.. Mr. J. B. Hine .Other"members who attended were: -The Hon. Jas. Allen, Sir J. Ward, Dri A; K. Newman, Messrs. J. Craigie, E. P. Lee, A.M. Myers, and J. Hanan. Mr. E. : Newman,forwarded an apology, and .was granted leave of absence Tho minutes were read. Sir Joseph? Ward: That is not a correct record of tho minutes. , Mr.^ine^To I .what; part do you tako exception;?!'.;;' Sir J. Ward:' In that part in which the vovds are iised"byme,.he'does not quote the.'words used by the chairman of the committee, ,'I wish, them to be put in. l[r. Hine: Which words? Sir ,'JVi Ward: Where ho. asked me to answer- 'straight' ■ or' refuse to give an answer.: -~ ■ Mr. Hino: It devolves on tho committee to say'.whether 'the minutes aro a true record or riot; T don't think it needs any ruling by me: .-. ". ( . The clerk was now instructed to again read the minutes, and did so. Mr. Myers said that in, justico to Sir Joseph Ward there ought to be a comploto report, including the remarks of the chairman. .... '■,',; ' '■ Mr. Allen;. If you want words put in, we can g'et'tho f exact words. We can't put into tho chairman's.ihouth;wbrds that he did notrsay.;'-■ - - v : Mr.-Pearoe:i'There is no doubt of this being'ai'correct:record/*-It -is-a question' of adding more to it. ■• "A Straight Answer." Sir. J. Ward repeated that the chairman had asked him to give a-straight answer. said, ."I must.ask you to answer the question,. Sir or refuse to answer,." ,-V' ,';..., i..A ,'■■".-'■" Mi\..Loe: Was: that taken- down in Bhbrthand,at'the time?' Mr. Hine-.'He-has-the words "I must ask; jou to answer the question." He did not get the- words, "or refuse to answer." Sir. Joseph Ward: I can only say that the press have reported it as I say. In 1 heard the remark myself,' and .1.-ai)i;;perfeetly sure that other members■ ;'bf: the 'committee' must have heard tho remark: "Answer the question straight-' oif -refuse-to : un<wor. it." ' Mri -HfiebriThOiclerk (was lonly instructed taitako downi-wordsaised by Sir Joseph Warjl;rand(not.-nhy wordsiused by me. .T-'C^I.V.'.' 1 ,'V .'... ;t :i .- \ ~,V,;'.-Protests and Rulings.' ' Mr.' Myers: When you used the remarks did you intend that they should bo in an offensive manner.' ~"'•' that;you cannot rniso'. that, question.' .'.' "•.■.'. Mr.'Myers: I bow'to 'your, decision, but it seems to.-me - - -

Mr... Hirie';',l must ask you to resume your.seat..'-'..'.'' Mr.Myers: I bow to your ruling.-Thank you very'much. '• ■'•■-'"

Sir, Joseph -Ward moved that the words •"Answer' tho' question straight" ho inserted in/the Report; . ■'■ MrMfin'b: J must ask you-to obey the chair. ~....;"'; '■'",■'/ ■"'.'' ■ ' '"

Sir /Joseph Ward:'.l have a- right to , enter-my.'protcst./. Mr. Hine: You shall be so reported. Sir.Toseph Ward: I must enter my protest that these words used by the chair-. .mail"to,-moi,and reported'by the press:. "AnsVer' straight or refuso to answer," are"not/included 'in the minutes. The niirfutes- arc an inaccurate and incomplete •recdftT of"'tho proceedings of tho committee.. ~•.-.'■ Df, Newman proposed at this stage that tho' discussion on the minutes should bo postponed so that- a fuller : report might, if pdsfsillc,' : be obtained; - y' . Reports Compared. Mr;Allen (referring, to, what Sir Joseph Ward lad said): It cannot go on record that the- press, generally so reported Mr. Hine./iTho."Evening Post" report, which was accepted by Mr. Myers as a fair and accurate report/says: "Mr. Hine: I must ask you to answer tho question, Sir Joseph, or refuse to answer it." Not a word about "straight" there—"straight" occurs later on—that, so [far as I can recollect, was what Was said. In The Dominion the report reads: "Mr. Hine: I must ask you to answer tho question put. or refuse to answer it"—-exactly as in the "Evening Post." Tho "New Zealand Times" does havo the words in: "Answer the question straight out or refuso to answer it at all." Two of .tho papers don't use the', word "straight." Ono apparently,does. Tho minutes do,not. 1 The shorthand writer does'not.' |- Mr. Myers: I say,-Mr.-' Chairman, with the greatest respect, ■.t'hero,Js,va,dirfer,ence. - of opinion.' '"«"'."':,■'•;,;:•'•'.'.• : ;; , :' ,r *' ; , : > '::.':'' "'.- : Mr. Hine: I have nlready ruled that you cannot discuss this matter. Oil on Troubled Waters. Mr. Myers:' I can only express my regret. I am trying to throw oil on troubled waters. , ,„ , , Mr. Hine: Sir Joseph Ward has a perfect right to ..dissent from the. minutes* but'l cannot accept his'motion. I cannot have added fco'-'the minutes'what I did not say, ~ '■ Mr. Myers: I ; accept 'your ruling, sir. Supposing you did not incan your remarks offensively Mr. Hino: I have - already ruled that you are not to raise that question at the present juncture; : Mr. Myers: ,1. am very sorry. ■ _ Mr. Craigio:'/I cannot vote for minutes if I think they ate hot right, and I think they are wrong.''". ■■' ■At -Mr. Craigie's request, -the clerk ngain read the 'minutes. ,; •,.. Mr. Craigie eaid that tho minutes should contain the' chairman' 6. remarks to Sir J. Ward.

Mr. Hine: You must realise that this is only a record of what was instructed to bo taken down. I asked Sir Joseph Ward to answer tho question, and ho answered in words taken down by the committee. Mr. Craigio: I don't remember your using the word •-•'straight" at. all. You 6aid, "I ask you' to answer the question or refuse to answer it." Mr. Pearce moved that the words "or •refuse to answer; it" should bo added to the minutes. • •. This was agreed to. Sir J. Ward: L-wish to record my protest against the minutes being, still InacThe minutes were confirmed, Sir J. Ward dissenting.... Report from the House. Tho chairman now Btated that as directed by the committee he had reported to the House Sir Joseph Ward's statement to, or challenge to, the chairman on last Friday. After discussion, the House had referred the report back to the committee for reconsideration. Sir Josoph Ward: Is it usual when deliberating to have strangers present? •Mr. Allen: Not when deliberating.

Sir Joseph Ward: If the committee haj not. I have no objection.

The chairman road the motion passed by tho House, ond said that the committee had the opportunity to consider its decision. Previous to that—previous to any discussion taking place for the reconsideration of the matter—ho thought it his duty, in the face of what tho Speaker had said, that the words used were unparliamentary, to ask Sir Joseph Ward to withdraw the statement that "it was a downright piece of impertinence." Ho asked Sir Joseph Wnrd to do so. Mr. Craigie: Mr. Chairman Comment Excluded. Mr. Hine: There is no comment on this. I ask Sir Joseph Ward to withdraw his statement. Sir J. Ward: I thought the report was before usfor consideration. I rise in protest before I deal with the matter—— Mr. Hine:.l cannot allow any comment. Mr. Allen: He may want to Mr.'Hine:-Sir Joseph Ward knows that when tho- Speaker is called upon to decide a point of order in tho House no comment is allowed, and no explanations are allowed. The member who has'transgressed is called upon to withdraw the words. I, as chairman,'putting asido all personal clement, take the same position as the Speaker. Sir J. Ward: I rise to a point of order. Is the report of the House before the Committee for consideration? Mr. Hine: Thero is no point of order. I rule that you cannot raise a point of order here. I am in tho same position as the Speaker. Sir J. Ward: That means that tho order of the House is of no importance? Mr. Hine: Not in comparison with a misdemeanour by a member of the Committee. ' A Refusalto Withdraw.' Sir J. Ward: I want to say at once that I' refuse to withdraw the words. I will withdraw them only after the Chairman has withdrawn his words to' me. They were uncalled for and contrary to fact. ' Mr. Hine: We can only report that Sir Joseph- Ward still refuses .to withdraw tho words. Mr. Hine now'read the order of the' House. Sir J. Ward: The Speaker ruled in .the Bouse that this matter could-not como up in the Committee after it had been reported to the House. The Chairman had declined to let the matter be discussed until he' (Sir J. Ward) had/ withdrawn. •' '/ Mr. Hine said that if Sir Joseph Ward disagreed with the. Chairman's ruling he had his remedy. A Friendly Appeal. Mr: Allen said he'was very sorry, indeed that the matter had reached tho present stage. .He thought that if Sir Joseph Ward calmly considered ho must realise that the-right course and the (most dignified, course, regardless of the irritation which may have caused him to use the words, was generously to withdraw them. It was obvious that the ruling of tho Chairman must be upheld, and if the Chairman had committed any indiscretion tho plain course was to deal, with the matter-by'motion. The Cbriimitte'e'-W>uTd not .impose indignities upon ~the G'hair',m4nOjilor,dM' I ,tJiey n--dnt' 1 tb il i%po^^ l;in'dignities "upon, any indi'vidtial "members. ' I think the words were used in the heat of the moment," Mr. Allen continued. "Might I not ask Sir Joseph Ward to consider his position, and also the position of each one of us, and the position of tho Committee, and urge him-as strongly as I can personally to withdraw the words. . If ho has any grievance, if the words aro withdrawn, let us have his grievance out, and let' us consider it. I am perfectly willing to consider any grievance he. has in a non-party and nonpolitical way, and do not want to move any resolution. Might I ask you as a friend," said Mr. Allen, turning to Sir Joseph Ward, ''and speaking in a friendly wav and not in any political spirit, to reconsider the situation, and put us in the position if you have any grievance of being able to consider it.".

Censure Rather Than Withdrawal. "I can only thank Mr. Allen as I do for his suggestion," replied Sir Joseph Ward, "but I regret I cannot accept it. I. looked upon the chairman's statement as particularly offensive at the time, and uncalled for, because I had answered the question. As a matter of fact, I would prefer to reccrivo the censure of tho Houso rather than withdraw the statement which I believe I was justified in making. I looked upon it as political bias of the chairman against me. Nothing more arbitrary or more exceptional in tho attitude of a chairman has any Parliament in the world ever seen. The House sent you tho report for reconsideration, and the chairman has declined to allow a member to speak to that report in a way that one can only describo as that of a martinet. The wholo decision, of Parliament has been set aside before we camo to the point as to what I was prepared to do or otherwise. 1 cannot see my way in the circumstances to withdraw. "The Offonsive Remark." . Mr. Lee: What was the offonsive remark made .to you by Mr. Hine that you- took exception to, and that led to tho remarks- you made yourself? Sir Joseph Ward: 1. was upon onth. Mr. Allen was questioning me, and I was answering his question. No appeal was made to the. chairman by.Mr. Allen, but the:chairman of his own accord mandatorily told me to answer tho question or refuse to answer. Later he told mo to answer straight. Tho chairman dictated to me without any request from Mr. Allen as to how I should answer tho question.

Mr. Lee: What was the expression to which you object? Sir Joseph Avard: He told me to answer tho question. 'That was an improper thing. ; Mr. Leo: To a witness?

Sir Joseph Ward: I think it was offensive to any member of tho committee.

Mr. Xee: That is.not suggested. What I understand led you to think you were justified in using the expression Sir Joseph Ward: If t'ho chairman had .withdrawn'.what I Tcgarded as offensive I would have withdrawn and apologised also. If I lost my self-respect I might withdraw, but I have not lost my selfrespect. I would prefer to receive the censure of the. House. An Adjournment. ■:At this stage the committee accepted a motion by Mr. Allen that it should adjourn for- half an hour. On resuming, the chairman stated that the question before the committee was tho report referred back by tho House, and he asked for a motion on tho matter. Mr. Alien again asked Sir Joseph Ward whether be would withdraw tho words.

"I can only say that I cannot see my way to do as is suggested," wa9 Sir Joseph Ward' 3 replv. "I have no personal feeling against Mr. Hine of any sort or kind. I felt at the tune that tho statement was very offensive to me as a public man. He (Mr. Hine) thinks it was all right. I cannot, and I won't press him to make it possible for me to do- as I might have done."

Mr. Allen: In the circumstances I must move that the committee report to the House that Sir Joseph Ward refused to withdraw the words complained of.

Sir Joseph Ward: I do not propose- to take any part in the discussion or vote upon it. Mr. Pearce argued that if the words were withdrawn the action of the chairman could be reviewed.

Discussing the circumstances of (he incident,' Mr. Hanan remarked that often a statement or a question'might bo unobjectionable in its form, but very objectionable in the tone or method.

The Same Difficulty. The Hon. Mr. Alien: I hope Mr. Italian is not Roiriff to get himself into the same difficulty. Mr. Ilunnn: I nni very sorry that the Minister is so keenly looking to make trouble. Mr. Alien: I am not. Mr. Hanan: I have said nothing to which any judge could lake exception. It. is onlv a hypersensitive individual like Mr. Allen who could make such <i remark. -The chairman should realiso that it is not usual for ;i chairman to take upon.himself to dictate— The chairman: I must ask you to keep off such debatable ground. I must ask von to withdraw the words. ' Mr. Hanan replied that he had referred to chairmen generally, and the chairman admitted that Mr. Hanan was entitled to do so. Mr. Hanan suggested that the chairman and Sir Joseph "Ward should meet in a cordial way. ■ . Mr. Hine: The chairman's action is not under discussion. I must ask you to leave any notion of tho chairman out ot your remarks. Mr. Hanan: Is not the chairman s ruling under discussion? Mr. Hine: -No. The report of the ccmmitteo is under consideration. Mr. Hanan then said that the report of the committee More the House on the previous evening was incomplete m many respects. . . Mr. Hine: It was the unanimous wish of the committee, and you voted in favour of it. ' Mr. Hanan said that if the matter was to bo reported to the House again there should 1)6 a full, clear, and explicit statement of what actually took place, and there should be no important omissions. It must be considered whether the chairman had noted rightly or wrongly. . Mr. Allen: That is not so. Mr. Hanan mode montion of parly feeling on tho committee, ond spoko of "the party chairman." Mr. Allen appealed to the Chair. "Ton are only stirring up strife," he added to Mr. Hanan. Mr. Hanan: I am not stirring up strife. I am merely pointing' out the position. 'Mr. Hino: 1 rule you out of order in referring to party spirit. Mr. llannn: My object wos to put the exact position. We can settle this matter between ourselves. Mr. Allen said tho only issue was tho use of obviously improper words, and if there was anything wrong beforo that it could bo dealt with afterwards. The evidence was immaterial. ITo had done his best to get round the difficulty, but unfortunately had not succeeded. Undoubtedly Unparliamentary, Mr. Myers expressed tho opinion that the circumstances, which they all deplored, has arisen owing to a misunderstanding. Ha believed that Sir Joseph Ward had used the expression, which was undoubtedly unparliamentary, because he believed that a personal affront had been placed upon him. He (Mr. Myers) said lie did not believe that-the chairman desired or meant any personal affront. Mr. Allen had asked for a sugjestion to clear tho matter'iip, and if .the chairman had not intended any affront and would say £0 — '■'•■■ ■ •''.■'■•"'"'

Mr. Allen: It is wrong to assume that he did.

Mr. Myers (to the chairman): I say it with tho greatest respect, I don't believe you meant it as a personal affront to Sir Joseph Ward. Ho thinks you did. If you express yourself—l believe you are a fairminded man desiring to do a fair-minded thing

Mr. Hine: I must ask you to drop that lino of argument. It is unfair to the chairman and unfair to the committee.

Mr. Myers was proceeding to repeat his suggestion, but the chairman again interrupted- him.

Mr. Craigie remarked that Mr. Myers was on the right track. • Mr. Myers again said he did not believe for a moment that tho chairman intended any affront. Mr. Hanan: Why cannot the chairman eay so?

Mr. Hino: I must ask you again to desist from referring., to tho chairman's action. - - ,

Mr. Myers: I have nothing more to say then. ' ,' ~'" ■'.'"' ,'' ; [ , ... Mr. Craigie proceeded tu support "Mt. Myers in the suggestion ho had made, and remarked that there, was party feeling on the committee.

Mr. Hine: I niust ask you not to take that strain. You aro going beyond tho bounds of privilege in taking that line of argument. Mr. Craigie: I wish to say candidly to Mr. Hino that he has with the very 'best intention ' spoken with a very abrupt manner. Tho Constitutional Way. Mr. Hine: I ask you,to resume vim* seat. I am not going to have tho Chairman's actions criticised or attacked. Mr. Allen: Except in a constitutional way. ' Mr. Hine: Every member has a right to bring the matter before Mr. Speaker if I givo a wrong ruling. I don't want any suggestions in that direction (referring to Mr. Myers's suggestion). I shall not allow any reflections on the Chair. Mr. Craigio: I believo in upholding the Chair. Mr. Hanan: Surely he can criticise.the action of the Chair ¥ Mr. Hine (to Mr. Craigie): If yon cannot make any other suggestion than that I should accept some responsibility in the matter, I must rule you out. Mr. Craigie: I have nothing more to say. Mr. Pearce again asked that tho words used by Sir Joseph Ward should bo withdrawn. Every member of the Committee knew that tho words were unparliamentary and should be withdrawn. If there had been anything objectionable before tlho words were used, the Committee would be only too glad to meet Sir J. Ward or anybody else. Mr. Hanan: We were not allowed to discuss it.' , ■ ' Mr. Allen: You would be allowed to discuss it afterwards. ' Mr. Peorco said that it was competent for any member to move to take the Speaker's ruling on a ruliug by the Chairman. An Amendment Ruled Out. Sir J. Ward said that it had been ruled by tho Chairman that he should withdraw before consideration of the report by tho House. It was only fair that an amendment should be included in the report. Mr. Hine ruled that ho oould not accept the amendment. He had given the Committee an opportunity of taking the ruling of the Speaker as to whether his (Mr. Hine's) ruling.was correct or incor. rect. Tho Committee had .not taken that opportunity and he must rulo the amendment out. ■

Sir Joscpli Ward: Very wall. The motion was carried, Mr. Hanan voting "No;" Mr. Allen was remarking that he wanted the original business of the Committee ended as soon' as . possible, when 'Mr. Ha,noh intervened to say that a full statement of the evidonce in respect of this incident should be furnished to tho House —a full. truo. and accurate report.

Mr. Hine: This (the official report) is the only evidence available. The reporter informed the committee this morning that he was not in the habit of taking discussions. He did take a certain amount of this, but he wishes it to be understood that he does not think it is all here. Thcro have-' been no exciscmentsj nothing taken out of the report. This is the-shorthand writer's type-writ-ten report as he took it down. Mr. Hanan: You admit that it is not a full report? Mr. Hine: I candidly admit that. It was agreed, on the motion of Ml. Hanan that a full report of the incident, as far os available, should be submitted to the House.

Mr. Hine ruled that the report of evidence must not be attached to tho report. Mr. Hanan: I would say take tho newspaper reports. The chairman said that this would be establishing a bad precedent. Mr. Hanan: If you took the decision of a Supreme Court Jndgo and then took the evidence in the case separately, where would you end? Mr. Jrfo: Supposing a witness got up in Court, and told the Judge that ho was a biased Judge, and had no right to sit on tho Bench, would any notice be taken of the previous evidence? Sir Joseph Ward: Could not anyone make a protest against a Judge or magistrate hearing a ca>o, and give his reasons for it?

Mr. T,oe: He could not characterise the conduct of the Judge. , The committee adjourned shortly alter mid-day until 10.30 a.tn, to-day. •