THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1572, 16 October 1912, Page 8

THE HOUSE.

THE LAND BILL; The House met at 2.."0 p.m. Mr. T: H. DAA'EY (Christchurch East) gave notice of his intention to moyo certain. amendments to tho Land Bill in Committee. - . . . , 'Mr. H. W. SMITH (Waimarino) also i gave notice of amendments to tho Bill. i ; WIRELESS. * Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Egraont) gave i notice to ask tho Government whether 1 they would next session introduce a Bill 1 to provide for better radio telegraphic facilities on ocean-going steamers registered in New Zealand. FIRST READINGS. The Kaiapoi Reserve Bill (the Hon. W. i{ Herries) and the Waßgahni Harbour District and Empowering. Bill.(Mr. W. A. v'eitch) were introduced and' read a first ' fencing of runanga. i Mr E. NEWMAN of tho Lands Committeo) moved that Standing OriW No. 210 be suspended in order to permit of tho member for Avon receiving i a copy of tho ovidonco taken by tho.committeo concerning the fencing ot tho ' block known as Runanga. No la. No ! ' (.|nr"o mis mado against tho honourable ! . but ho .was the owner of tho

land, and the committee thought he was entitled to havo a copy of the evidence. The motion was carried. WIDOWS' PENSIONS. Certain amendments to the Widows Pensions Act Amendment Bill were introduced by Governor's Message. PHARMACY'BILL. The Hon. K. H. 'RHODES (.Minister for Public Health) moved that the amendments made by the Legislative Council in the Pharmacy Bill be agreed to. He explained that tho effect of the amendments was to nmko a Utile more effective the clause introduced at the instance of Mr. Dnvey. Tlu; Bill as it left the House made it illegal for a chemist'to supply prescription forms bearing their business styles to medical men, and the Legislative Council made this apply equally to any layman who might happen to own. a chemist's shop. / . Mr. T. H. DAVEY (Christchurch East) said lie did not think the amendments went far enough .to prevent arrangements being made between doctors and chemists. He said ho proposed, to move that the amendments be disagreed with.

The Hon. R. ft, RHODES said he had learned upon inquiry that practices such as Mr. Davey wished to prevent were more or--loss common in'some towns'in'New Zealand, and he was willing to give effect to the proposals Mr. Davey had suggested, lie would'move that, consideration of the amendments he.'postponed, and he travo jiotico ;thnt ho would introduce further amendments by Governor's Message. POOR PRISONERS' DEFENCE, The amendments .made, by the Legislative Council in the Justices of the Peaco Amendment Bill wcro agreed to. ' WIDOWS' PENSIONS. AMENDMENTS BY'.THE MINISTER; The.'Hon.' F. M. B. FISHER moved that the report of the Committee oi\;thc Widows' Pensions Amendment Bill bo'adopted. The Hon. W. -H. HERRlES' : '{Minister for. Railways) moved as an ariWndment that , tho Bill be recommitted, to.renable the amendments-brought down By (governor's Message earlier in tho afternoon to be incorporated in the Bill.

Tlio Bill was recommitted accordingly. ' . The Hon. !■'. M. B. FISHER explained that the amendments.made the provisions of; the. Bill apply to. all children, born in : New "Zealand, and to, give- effect-to the amendment moved in committee-by .the ; memlier for Grey. Tliis latter amendment allowed a'widpw to draw money frjm tho bank without' the drawings being vomited as income (provided that the amount in the bank should not ever exceed i'.'itl). Another clause would exenipt from tho definition of , property nil-.the furniture and hou.'-ehild nfi'ects of the'widow. , ' ; Mr.'T.'H. DAVEY (Christchurch East) fuggested that tho Minister should, inirnduco a further amendment to r'oduce tiie term of rp-iflonce- necessary;, for 4 pension' from ten years,to five'y&irs. . i Mr. FISHER said he could not, say what tlio cost of the change would be, but probably it could be assessed, lie '.vouid give 'the; matter consideration, and pc»Siblv .he .'might be .able'to introduce' a further amendment later. The Bill was reported with amendments. Messrs. Witty, Poland, and Eli coil-' gratulated tlio Minister on haviig. introduced the Bill,' and on having received so sympathetically suggestions from the Opposition side of the House. The Bill was read a third time. - V MACARTHY TRUST. " The Hon. W. F. MASSEY (in tho absence of the Hon. A. 1., Herdman) moved the third reading of the Thomas George Macarthy Trust Bill. The Bill was read a third time on the voices without debate. DEFENCE BILL. v CONSIDERED IN COMMITTEE. AN AMICABLE DISCUSSION. Tho Defence Amendment Bill (the Hon. James Allen) was committed shortly before the 5.30 adjournment. When the House resumed at 7.30 p.m., 111'. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) appealed to the Minister to' physical drill for military drill in tho case of men sent to detention camps. It would bo worse, he contended,, to err .on the side of leniency in administering this Act.

The Hon. JAS. ALLEN said that if men really objected to military drill, it should not be impossible to substitute physical drill.

Clause 3 provides that offenders against the' Act may bo detained in custody in ( a place other than a prison or police-gaol. Mr. G. WITTY (liiccarton) moved to add "or military barrack prison." ■ The MINISTEIt declined to accept tho j amendment, aiul it was negatived on a ' division by 31 votes to 21. ' Mr. G. W. ItUSSJJLL (Avon) moved an J 'amendment to tho satno clause making ' tho Minister for Defence, instead of the ! Commandant of the Defence Forces, re- 1 sponsible for the selection of places of < detention. Mr. Russell contended many ' powers vested in tho Commandant by this * and other clauses of the Bill should bo exercised by the Minister, who was re- 1 sponsiblo to Parliament. The tendency to unduly exalt tho military element should be resisted. Mr: T; M. WILFORD (Hutt) opposed ; tho amendment. > Tho Minister opposed tho amendment. Sir JOSfil'H WARD (Awarua) said that it would be a mistake to adopt Ml'. Russell's suggestion. Mr. Russell: I'll accept it on the voices. By permission of tho committee, Mr. Russell withdrew his amendment, and moved to substitute "Minister" for "Commandant" in Clause i, which empowers the Commandant to discharge persons from .military custody. An Amendment Accepted. Tho Minister accepted this amendmeut, and it was agreed to on tho voices. Clause 8 provides that every person in military custody shall bo subject to training and discipline proscribed by the Commandant. Mr. CI. W. KUSSELL (Avon') moved to vest these powers instead in the Minister for Defence. Tho Minister objected to the amendment. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) suggosted that the Minister for Defence, on tho advice of the Commandant, should exercise the powers mentioned in Clause 8. Mr. 1). BUICIt (Palmerston North) strongly urged tho Minister not to accept the amendment. ',Mr. KUSSELL said that if his amendment were agreed to tho Minister Would certainly act on the recommendation of the Commandant. He wished to felieve the Bill''of the appearance it would present to the people of the leountry of vesting too much power in the military element. The Minister agreed to insert words providing that the Commandant should presorilo training, discipline, etc., "with the approval of tno Ministoi'."^ Mr. Kussell then withdrew his amendment. Tho Hon. H. Xt'KENZIE (Motueka) moved to strike out a provision that anyone sent to a military detention camp should be liable to detention for a further period of 28 days on refusing to submit to military training. The amendment was withdrawn

Minister undertaking to consider the ob- I jeotion raised. i A Contentious, Clause. Sir J. WAKD (Auvinia) asked the Minister to, delete Clause 10, which rends: "Nothing in this Act shall bo so construed as to prevent, any line from being recovered or enforced in any maimer which would have been competent or lawful if this* Act was not: in force/' The MINISTER asked tiie House to retain the olause, but stated that it. would not bo used where its use could possibly be avoided. Sir J. AVAIID conteudod that military detention should be a substitute for a portion of the law which had been opposed by a largo section of the community. The Bill provided not only for military detojition, but for attachment of wages. Civil imprisonment had only been used hitherto to enforce payment of fines. The Hon. J. ALLEN said that there were four penalties. .First, there was the fine. If a man refused to pay the fir.e his wages might be attached. Foiling attachment of his wages, he might be subjected to military detention. If he still proved recalcitrant' thcro must Ixi power to commit him to prison. He hoped it would never be exercised. • Attachment Orders. Clause 11 deals with the making of attachment orders against the wages of men refusing to pay fines under the Defence Act Mr. A. H. HINDUAESH (Wellington South) said tlmt under the clause as it stood an attachment order could bo made without either the defendant or his employer being notified. He could not see how a magistrate in such circumstances would be iu a position to make an order. The defendant should bo heard before an order was made. The Hon. J. ALLEN said that before aman became subject to an attachment order against his wages he must first bo convicted. This would entail the magistrate being conversant with tho facts of the case.

Mr. J. ROBERTSON (Otaki) objected to the clause iu toto, and announced that ho would call for a division upon it. Ho contended that the clause raised a class distinction, : and would apply only to a section of the community.

Sir J. WARD (Awaru.i) said that since tiis power to inflict civil imprisonment for non-payment of fines had been retained, ho would not vote to attach any man's wages. Mr. W. H. D. BELL said that the at-tachment-order clause would inflict no injustice on.anyone; It would .simply mean that a certain number of offenders, against the Defence Act would have their wages attached instead of being made martyrs " ol'.

Mr. Isitt and Mr. Davey opposed tho clause. •

Jlr. A. H. HINDMAK-SH (Wellington South) paid that as far back as 1895 Mr. James Allen had opposed the abolition of attachment of workers' wages up to £'2 per week. So that the Minister for Defence had been consistent all these years. AU lie (Mr. Hindmarsh) asked was that •the defendant should receive notice of the intention of the military to apply for an attachment order., ,

The Hon. J. ALLEN said that the. clause said that the attachment "may be made ex parte," not "shall bo - made." Full inquiry would bo. made into- his financial position'when, the defendant was before the Magistrate in tlio.■ first instance charged with an otfenco. The Hon. J. Allen said it was not his wish that any man's wages should be, attached without his getting a fair hearing. He would have the. whole matter looked into, and, if necessary, lie would make provision for an amendment before tho Bill went to the Legislative Council. After a division the clause was retained bv 38 votes to 25. 'The Hon. J. Allen moved an amendment to alter the, definition of school to make if apply not only to a State public school but to meaii.any-school recognised under, the Education .Act. Under the heading of secondary school, he also moved to include technical schools. Both proposals were accepted by the Houeo. It was stated in tho courso of discussion that at Dunedin attendance at technical schools was accepted as -'.equivalent to attendance at driU?/A%di*B&aiJfostfr was asked if he would make''this general. The Hon. J. Allen said that ha had no knowledge of the arrangement, but he would make inquiries concerning it. The Training Age. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) suggested, when Clause 23 was under discussion, that tlio maximum ago limit ought to bo reduced from 25 to 21 years. . . The Hon. J. ALLEN said provision was already in the Act by whiclt a man Could be excused after four years from further service if ho were efficient, and it,would depend on the working out of tho" scheme to what extent that power would bo exercised. ' , Mr. G. WITTY (Ricearton) moved an amendment to reduce the maximum ago to °1 Tito Hon. J. ALLEN said ho could not accept the amendment. ■ .... Mr. W. A. VEITCII (Wanganm) 6aid the object of the Defence Act was not merely to give concessions to those opposed to it The purpose was the defence of tho country, and if efficiency could bo ensured at the age of 21 years, he would be in favour of reducing the age. But it would be a great mistake to cripple tho scheme by rcdnoing the ago too much. The amendment was lost, by 47 votes to

Htr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) moved an amendment to increase flic age to 55 years. Hi" amendment was, however, ruled out on the ground that, if carried, it would increase the appropriation. Answering questions from Messrs. Macdonald and Kussell, the Hon. .T. Allen, said junior cadet ofiicers would not be allowed to s-it for examination as ofheors since tho junior cadets wero abolished. However, so soon as, they served with the senior eadcts 'or the territorials, they would bo eligible for examination. Conscientious Objcctors. When Clauso 13 was under discussion, Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) said he would make one more appeal on behalf of tho conscientious objector, who did not believe in tho bearing of arms, lie moved an amendment to tho effect that conscientious objectors should bo granted exemption on application to a magistrate. He explained that sucli rn exemption would wider another clauso in the Act involve equivalent non-military service. ' Mr. W. C. BUCHANAN (Woirorapa) said that he hoped that tho Committeo would reject the clause. Tho Hon. JAS. ALLEN said that it was impossible to define tho conscientious objector. Such a clause as was proposed would open the door to all sorts' of men, who would say that they had conscientious objections. If the concession asked foe wero made a greater outcry would be raised against the proposed equivalent service. than had been raised against tho defence training scheme. The exemption extended to religious objectors had been greatly widened in the present Bill. I Mr. T. BUXTON (Temuka) supported the amendment. After some further discussion, the House divided on tho amendment. Tho' amendment was defeated by 44- votes to 10. A new clauso was added to make attachment orders effective against offenders in the employ of tho Grown." Other amendments, added at tho instance of the Minister, made new provisions for the setting up and the regulation of Court, martfals. Tho Bill prorides that in times of peace tho maximum punishment to be inflicted by a Military Court is' 'three months' imprisonment, capital punishment being abolished. The Bill was roported with amendments. Tho House roso at 1.15 a.m.