DEFENCE BILL.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1568, 11 October 1912, Page 6

DEFENCE BILL.

SECOND READING DEBATE. NOT A PARTY QUESTION. Tho Hon. J. ALLEN (Minister for Defence) moved the second reading of the Defence Amendment Bill. He regretted, he said, that it was necessary to introduce amending defence legislation, but it could not bo expected that the first Bill would be. at once perfect. Ho felt very grateful to his two predecessors in office (Sir Joseph Ward and Mr. A. M. Myers), for their work in carrying out tho provisions of the Bill. Tho House had always regarded the defence question as of too much importance to tho country pjid the Empire to bo fought out .in the party arena, and he hoped it would not be disputed on party lines now. There were, ho knew, men in the country who were opposed to what they called compulsory training, 'but it was wrongly called compulsory training. It was national training. (Hear, hear.) The old voluntary system was very good so far as it went, but it had not provided the country with adequate defence, and it would not have been a fair thing to ask those who had been volunteers to make bigger sacrifices for their country and let everybody else go free. He was pleased to bo able to soy that the system was popular, and he sympathised very sincerely with those members whose constituents were perpetually urging them to repeal the Act. Tho ideal nf everybody must lie uuiversal peace, hut who could say, looking at things as they were now in Europe, that peace would assuredly be kept for any very long time.

Military Detention. The men who would not register were, under the new Bill, to be subjected to military detention, nnd not to imprisonment. And military detention would not involve starvation, indignity, or ill treatment. If would bo simply ordinary detention in a camp, in ordinary barracks, or in proper detention barracks such as those at Tniaroa Heads. Mr. lsitt: What will they do at the camps? Mr. Allen: They will have to do ordinary drill and training. Mr. lsitt: If they ujon't do it? .Mr. Allen: Then they will hnvo to stay there until they do do it. Tho police, he said, would bring them back to camps if they ran away, and would generally make "defaulters obey the law. The Magistrate would still have power to commit an objector to prison who would not submit to discipline in detention camps, but ho hoped it would nover bo necessary to exercise this power. He hoped the punitive clauses in the Bill would be sufficient to enable tho authorities to enforce it, but if it were not, tho House would bo asked, pei-haps next, year, to pass an amending Bill. Provision had been made for the collection of fines under the Bill by 'attachment orders, to avoid tho committal of defaulters to prison. Many of the youths who would be punished by fines would bo in receipt of only small salaries, and they would be unable to pay fines at once, while tho only pos-' sible method of enforcing payment in' instalments would be by attachment orders against.wages. The House-was-being asked to take out of Defence legislation nil- reference to Junior Cadets. It would still be possible for education boards to allow boys of junior endet age to form companies to' drill, and to do rifle practice, as tlinv do now, but tho system would be purely voluntary. The system of training for school children—boys and girls—would bo purely physical training on scientific lines. The training would be imparted by instructors loaned from the Defence Department, and by the teachers. Eventually the framing would lie done entirely by the teachers, but the inspection' would always be, done by the Defence Department.

Objectors. He had brought down no legislation to deal with conscientious objectors. He had been unable to conceive any legislation to meet the case of the conscientious objectors. Mr. Isitt: You admit that they exist. Mr. Allen said he admitted certainly that they existed, but he thought most of tho really conscientious objectors based their objections on religious grounds. The religious objector was provided for in the Act, but it had also been provided, us was only fair, that ho should make an equal sacrifice of timewiththomanwho did the military service required of him. It was being left to the Government to provide by regulation what work religions objectors should bo asked to do. Possibly it might be fair to ask them to do such things as beautifying work m towns or, cities. He hoped tho Bill would' find favour with members. He added that when the Bill was in Committee \\( would move to introduce certain clauses to regulate court-martials. Tho regulations governing court-martials were at present most imperfect and the new clauses would bo necessary. Ho explained tho clauses relating to drills.' It had been found workable to fix a definite number of drills for all districts. In tho country men found it inconvenient to get away to weeklv drills, and as it would be'now fixed by regulation the. number of drills would bo nccessnrv in various districts, and the number of days' training in camp required in different districts. Mr. Isitt: Is it the intention to eo on prosecuting young men who have ah ready been prosecuted for refusing to re. gister? Does it go on and on? Mr. Allen: It will be a continuing of. fence. You mean pay one fine and get out of it. We couldn't allow that. In conclusion he said that tho military training and tho military spirit, properly regulated, were good for the youth of the country as tending to foster a virile man. hood. Already there wore evidences in New Zealand that if the young people submitted to this legislation it was going to do a great deal of good to us. He referred appreciatively io the Senior Cadets who had gone to Canada, who had upheld the name of this country and of tho young manhood of this country in a way'of which people could rightly be proud. Ho moved the second reading of the Bill with very great pleasure, and ho hoped to have the assistanco of members in the Committee stages in placing a good Bill on the Statute Book. (Applause.)

The First Line. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said he thought there was dauger of New Zealand attaching too much -importance to land defenco to the neglect of the Navy. Our first defence as an insular country must bo the Empire Navy, and land forces could nover be other than a second lino of defence. We were absolutely dependent on our foreign trade, and tho most hurtful attack on New Zealand would be an attack by sea which would close the ocean highways. No invasion need be attempted. If our export trade were stopped chaos would ensue, and our civilisation would be endangered. He-was afraid we wero putting all our eggs in one basket and relying too inneli on land defence. Speaking of the Bill, he deprecated the undue elevation of tho powers of the commandant. Mr. A. S. MALCOLM (Clutha) said ho could nstrce in groat part with much of what lir. Russell had said regarding naval defence, but he did not like Mr. Russell discount tho value of an internal territorial defence. He was in favour of an Australasian squadron. Tho most urgent question before the Empire and tho Dominions at present was the need for a central authority controlling nil I defence matters the whole Empire over.

"Conscientious" Objectors. i Mr. L. M. IStTT fChrisfchurch N"orth) made a pica- 'on behalf of Hie conscientious objectors to the compulsory system. ! Hs believed the Minister had made an honest attempt to deal with these nbj»riors « gubititutiwL.ailitarj; detention.

for imprisonment, but he was afraid that tho remedy was worse, than the disease. Objectors were to bo>put into barracks to do military exercise which thoy_ would not do. Ho insisted that some of the lads had intense conscientious scruples and beliefs on this question. Mr. Buchanan: At what ageP Mr. lsitt: About 18 or 20. Ho went on to say that' there was no escape for youths like that under this Bill. Mr. J. Bollard: They should be sent to a mental hospital. Mr. Lsitt said no man could define a religious objector. A man might have a religious conviction if ho were an agnostic, just as much as if he were a Methodist. He urged that a law which allowed certain people to make themselves martyrs would endanger tho Defence system. Mr. A. H. HINDMARSH (Wellington •South) said ho was in favour of military training, but in introducing the new principle of compulsion' it must be treated with the greatest, care. Our race was not accustomed to it. There was a danger from tho "trappings" of our system of creating caste distinctions in New Zealand. been gross favouritism in tho Defence Department, and if this went on it would wreck the scheme. General] v lie approved of the Bill. Sir JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) said ho would not regard the question from a party standpoint. He was glad flio Minister had brought down his amending Bill, which he would support. He resented the suggestion that anyone sent to a military camp for detention was likely to lie degraded by contact with the young men he might meet there. The system had once been in danger of being destroyed, and if he had,not taken a strong course "the show would have been burst up before it was on its feet at all." He insisted that the compulsory system was an absolute necessity, for the voluntary system was decaying to the point of being useless before the change was made. Ho gave an emphatic denial to a statement telegraphed to the London "Morning Post" by a Christchurch correspondent that in the interval between the last election and tho meeting of Parliament he (Sir Joseph Ward) had coquetted with the anti-militarists, and had allowed a nuni'isr of Socialists in Wellington to wring concessions from hint at a secret interview. He added that on being interviewed by some Socialists he had promised to introduce military detention. He advised the Minister to abandon altogether the implication of ordinary imprisonment for failure to discharge responsibilities under the Defence Act. Mr. A. HARMS (Waitemata) was pleased that the subject was being debated' from a non-party standpoint. He hoped much from the Bill, and he would support it. There would very soon corns a time when the few objectors of'to-day would be silent and in accord with those who now advocated the Scheme.

An Assured Success. Mr. A. M. MYERS (Auckland East) said that it was a matter for-congratula-tion that the Territorial Army i/ts an assured success. It was pleasing lo find tho House practically unanimous in the opinion that there was necessity lor the compulsory scheme. He disagreed with the contention that the workers were against the scheme. He felt sure that the portfolio of Defence was in t.'.e hai'ds of a gentleman who would bring to bear in the discharge of his duties a sound judgment and other good qualities in administration. Mr. Allen was well suited indeed to have charge of the Bill. (Hear, hear.) Respecting naval defence, he hoped that either the Prime .Minister or tho Minister for Defence would soon visit England, and there gain a. further insight into naval affairs. Mr. P. W. LANG (Manukau) said that ho'was pleased to notioo that in tho House as in. tho country tho Bill was generally supported. He . was opposed, however, to the exclusion of junior cadets from the, scheme of military organisation. l Mr. H. ATMOB-E (Nelson) congratulated the Minister on the honest, and thorough manner in which he had endeavoured to meet objections to the defence system. Ho could not help feeling that tiicre had been a good deal of favouritism shown in tho selection of territorial officers.

Conscientious Objectors. Mr. G. M. THOMSON (Duned in North) approved of tho Bill generally. Ho agreed with the Minister that it would be impossible to exempt from service all who chose to call themselves conscientious objectors. Mr. J. ROBERTSON (Otaki) said he believed tho Minister had made a sincere effort to remedy abuses, but ho feared that results of it would not justify tho Minister's expectations. ' Mr. G. WITTY (Riccarton) contended thnt the exemption clauso should be widened. There ( were conscientious objectors who could not plead religion, but were as honest and sincere as those who did. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) declared that conscientious objectors were moro numerous than members of the House seemed to think. He said our system was a conscript system. Mr. C. A. WILKINSON (Egmont) said he thoroughly believed in the substitution of military detention for imprisonment. He thought compulsory military training was popular in the country.

Minister in Reply. Tho Hon. J. ALLEN rose to reply at 1.55 a.m. Ho expressed his gratitude to members for the friendly reception given to the Bill, and the kindly references to himself. Ho hoped to show tho House that he was sincere in his desire to put a workable measure on the Statute Book. In answer to criticisms, ho said he could not regard our army.as anything hut a citizen army. He did not believe in the opinion of the member' for Grey Lynn that tho voluntary system ought to bo retained by tho offer of payment to volunteers. It did not seem to him right that payment should be offered to some for tho work which ought to be tho duty of all. Owing to tho lateness of the hour he refrained from discussing" naval defence, but he did not think, in the face of developments, in Hying machines and tho like of late yeavs that it would 1)6 wise for New Zealand to embark upon a naval scheme. ' Ho thanked the member for Christchurch North for his'speech. He admitted that the case of tho conscientious objectors was a difficult one, but if they wero to be considered the door would bo opened so wide that it would defeat, the purposo of the Act. However, his mind was open on tlie question and if a good proposal were put forward in Committee ho would accept it. He hoped that when tho Bill became law it would bo the most perfect measure that could bo put on the Statute-book. The socond reading was carried on the ' On the motion for adjournment, the fewremaining Oppositionists in tho back benches called for a division. The motion was carried by 3f> votes to 5, tho "noes' being Messrs. Ell, M'Kenzic, Witty, Buddo, and 3. C. Thomson. The House rose at 2.10 a.m.