THE COUNCIL.

Dominion, Volume 6, Issue 1562, 4 October 1912, Page 6

THE COUNCIL.

; M.OKAU PETITION COMMITTEE. . The Legislative Council met at 2.30 yesterday afternoon. j Tho Hon. H. D. BELL moved that the :names of the Hons\ B. A. Loughnan and ! Captain -Tucker be added to the Joint [Committee' to which ;tho petition of Mr. IJoshua Jones, of.'Mokau, 'has been reiierred. ~.-■ ' :v- : '. ; \/v.- - The Honi J.T.'PATJLasked the reason for the further appointments.. He did ■not believe in very large, committees, and iwas. afraid that/ tho present committee ■was too large to carry out to the best : advantage tho work assigned to' it. ' .. i The Hon. H. LY BELL stated that .tho (Council had the'privilege-'of'being Teprc-. Rented .by the samo number of members. ias tho House of Representatives, and the IHouse having appointed two additional ■members, the Council had to appoint two more, lie had asked two legal members of the Council to act, but one was ill end the other was 'too busy. ■:■"■■• The additional names were agreed to. WAGES PROTECTION AND CONTRACTORS' LIENS.- ;'■' The Hon. 0. SAMUEL has given notice jni his intention to ask'the Minister'for [Internal Affairs to-morrow whether..the [Government .will tako into consideration |the advisability of introducing legislation to amend the consolidated statute of 1908, Intituled the Wages Protection and Contractors' Liens Act,; 1908, by'.restoring the: meaning ascribed to.-the word ''work"in : the Contractors' and . Workmen's. Lien Act, 1892, the substitution, of tho ■ word "means" in the later Act for- "includes"' 5n the earlier Act probably -resulting in depriving some clashes of workers of the benefits they pievip.nsly...enjoyed. ■ THE NE\V PARLIAMENT ;HOUSE. The Hon.: J. E.'MENIvINSON moved that the report of the House Committee /upon the plans for the new Houses of (Parliament;bo agreed.to. This report re-jcontmended'-'thnt tho - Legislative Council (writing-room!should be on'tlie same floor of the new building as the Council Cham- . .'ter. : r,.:-,;-:..., . [ The Hon. Captain BAILLIE moved'an '.amendment that the report be referred iback to the. committee- to consider and report upon- the heating and ventilation of the building, and to call for the opinion of medical men on the point. ; The Hon. GEO. JONES referred to the (wretched ventilation in mist,of tho. present buildings. The ail- in some rooms (was sufficient to make one sick, and unless a person was prepared for- , a draught strong enough to blow his hair off, ho jcould. not have any. .ventilation. . ' Tho Hon. :W. W. M'CARDLE said that of all the places short.of a furnace, re •had never seen any room equal to the ■■reading-room • they had to use in ttiis ibuihling. To sit thete for an hour was practically talcing one's life -in onfe's , ihands. He .ras opposed to fireplaces in tbe new buiHoig. The Hon. Dr. COLLINS thought the Government ;■ should consult the Health Department.on the matter of ventilation and drainage before the building was commenced. : The Hon. H. D; BELL thought the suggestion mad-3 by the last speaker was a good one. Ho would ask the architect to confer with th-3 Government architect in the above connection. The Hon. Captain BAILLIE withdrew tis amendment, and tho report was adopted. MACARTHY TRUST BILL. The Hon; H. D. BELL moved the second rending of tho Thomas- George Macnrthy Trust Bill. The Bill, ho said, had boon submitted to a Judge of the finpromo Court, and its details had been approved.by him. The Billwas put through all stages and passed. PUBLIC SERVICE BILL. DEBATE ON THE SECOND READING. THE COMMISSIONER'S TERM OF OFFICE. The Hon. GEO. JOSES continued the adjourned debate on tho second reading « fij tt-v Public. Ecrrico. Bill. There vas

not, lie said, much enthusiasm over tliis Bill. In his opinion they had under this Bill Ministerial rule, but so concealed in a mass of legal jargon that it was not perceptiblo unless one analysed the Bill very closely. The Bill was the culmination of misconception and unjust accusation. Mr. Jones proceeded to quote figures to show that there was no foundation for the accusation that Roman Catholics had 'been favoured in tho public service by a past Administration. There had not been a single reason given by the Leader of the Council why they should accept this Bill, or that would justify them in accepting it. The Bill made no change in the present position. , It gave the power to Parliament, meaning really the Ministry of tho day. At the fame time the Bill professed to give the management into tho hands Df a commissioner in subjection to Parliamentary control. Ton cannot, said Mr. Jones, dodge political influence, try how you may. It would crop up everywhere. Power must be given to someone, and what, he asked, was more legitimate than that tho people's representatives should exercise the power. The position in Australia had been quoted, but it was not aualagous to New Zealand. It had been claimed that the principle had been before tho country for years—Yes! and so had cruel, systematic, and deliberate misrepresentation of the Civil Service. This Bill was not an open attempt to do justice to or. control tlie Civil Service. I'll© Bill, said Mr. Jones, was a creature of a niero phantasy, conjured \\n for political'purpose?. The best thing to do with it now was to put it on the dust-heap. In tho course of some further remarks, the Hon. Mr. Jones was prompted to give his opinion that there appeared to be just now no ■ such. thing as truth and honour in politics. .(Laughter, and hear, hear.) Hon. Mr. Bell: I hope that is in order. Hon. Mr. Jones: Perfectly in order —it's truth —that'is always in order. Continuing, Mr. Jones said he intended to vote against the Bill because it would give no better management than at present; it would cost more money; would creato more dissatisfaction; and would remove the responsibility from those who should legitimately hold it. As an opponent of the Government, he could not wish n better thing to occur than that the Bill should pass. . A voice: Well, vote for it. (Laughter.) A LABOUR VIEW,' APPROVED AS AN EXPERIMENT. , Tho Hon.' J. Barr said he would support tho Bill. Hβ.did not look upon tho measure in the same light as the previous speaker. He approved the Bill as an experiment, although the Leader of the Council had maintained that it was past tho experimental stage. He could not agree with this view. One of the chief features which led to his approval of the Bill was that there was without question a considerable amount of dissatisfaction in the various branches of tho Civil Service. Hon. Mr. Jones: Are you going to do away with it with this Bill? Hon. Mr. Barr: If we don't try we never will remove it.

Continuing; Mr. Barr said the cause of the dissatisfaction was that all promotion was. on seniority, and no consideration whatever was, according to tlio complainants, given to merit. There was an honest endeavour made in this. Bill to recognise ability, and to keep the, man who would/not work in his present position or drop him down a stage. In a review of the clauses of the-Bill.'Mr. Barr said ho held that every facility should be given witnesses to approach the Commissioner. The Appeal Board, as constituted, made it possible for a member of one branch' of the service to bo tried before a court on which his branch had no representative. All the divisions, he urged, should have tho same privilege as the Post and Telegraph Department. ■ The Hon. Mr. Bell: Some of the Departments are quite small. Mr. Barr: I know that, but I think it would bo better to make some alteration in this respect . THE. HON. J. RIGG'S VIEWS. , SUPPORT WITH A PROVISO. • On retaining-at 8 p.m., '.I'he Hon. J. BIGG said there had been n cry from some people for a reform of the Civil Seiwice, but on analysis this cry was found to, be against alleged favouritism or a certain appointment or appointments. This Bill had been before the other House, but it could not be eaid that it had the approval of the people of the country. 'Where there was patronage by the Government, the people had the remedy in. their own hands, but with a Commissioner, appointed for a fixed term, that Commissioner was practically outside the control of ;th'e electors. Ho thought the former was the prqfcrable position. The Bill contained some good provisions, and outlined a scheme that might bo carried out with good effect, but he could not understand why each Minister should, not be tho-■Commissioner of his own Department, to carry out the schemo set forth in the Bill. He agreed with the Hon. Jlr. Jones that there was nothing in the Bill to inspire confidence. ■ The Hon. n. D. Bell: It comes from the wrong side. Continuing, Mr. Rigg said that his pre-sent-feeling was to vote against the Bill, but if the' Leader of the Council could Bee his way to limit the operation of tho Act to three years, he Would vote for it. He felt sure that before long the Government would realise that it had made a mistake. If the Act was a success, the Act could b<? renewed. The Hon. J. B. Callan: 'Could you get a Commissioner who would take the position for three years? Mr. Rigg thought it would bo possible, as the man appointed would probably bo from high in tho service, and if the Act failed he could go back to the service. When one considered how the Commissioner was bound handand foot, it would seem, speaking figuratively, that the Government were purchasing a dog and would go on keeping him on the chain. If a Commissioner were appointed, he should bo given wider power than he had under the Bill. Mr. Rigg said he was in favour of tho Post and Telegraph Department being excluded from the, Bill. The Hon. Mr. Bell: No. Mr. Rigg said this Department was sufficiently well organised and well managed at present. He also thought the Government Printing Office should bo excluded. Tho Hon. Mr. Bell: No. THE HON. MR. CARNCROSS. GIVE THE BILL A TRIAL. The Hon. W. C. V. CARNCROSS said they could not fail to recognise that tho motives which prompted tho Bill were pure. The Government had tho me.ms of exercising its patronage and popul.rising itself, and they must recognise that the Government were giving this away. Voices: "They are not—read tho Bill." Continuing, Blr. Carncross saiil they Iwd had reason to anticipate such a Bill from the Government, and they had heard no strong prote.it from the country. They knew that there had bren appointments that could< bo' criticised, and they know that -it was. only tho courtesy of the Leader of tho Council that prevented him from mentioning them. 110 read an extract from the Civil Service report to indicate that the commissioners had reported that during the past sis years the service had been clear of bad cases. Hβ was opposed to the seven years' term foT a Commissioner—it was too long, and ho thoudit Cyq, years would to a fait.

term and might be accepted by the Government. The Hon. D. Bell: "No, I could not." Mr. Carncro?3 said he was prepared to give the Bill a trial, but he thought it was tho outcome or exaggerated statements, in tin , press and on the platform in regard to political patronage. lie would support the Bill, which he looked upon as the framework of good legislation which wo might have hereafter. THE HON. R. A. LOUGHNAN. DEMOCRATIC PRINCIPLE VIOLATED. The Hon. R. A. LOUGHXAN said his objection to the Bill was that it violated a democratic principle, in that it did away with the control that should rightly rest with the people. .Ministers should, ho urged, shoulder their responsibility. HON. J. T. PAUL'S VIEWS. A SUPPORTER OF THE PRINCIPLE. Tho Hoii. J. T. PAUL said he thought the time was coming when most of the State's functions would be managed by commissioners, but tho Board of Commissioners would be very dilt'ercnt from the Railway Commissioners who managed the railways. On the Board of tho future, ho thought there would be a representative of tho workers in Iho industy. He knew of no member who wished to exercise patronage. In fact, it was irksome to' them. Under the present system a member had to do all he could to get positions for all who came to him. To his mind, tho representatives of the people could employ their time much better. The replies received from Australia were (ho urged) in favour of control by a. commissioner or board against control by Ministers. Any alteration which they could make wjiich would increase the control of the commissioners by Parliament would be advantageous.. Tt was his intention to support the proposal to reduce the term of office of flic commissioners from seven to five years. The Hon. H. D. Bell: "No." The principle embodied- in the Bill, if intelligently applied, would, he thought, give satisfaction. Tho debate was adjourned on the motion of the Hon. J. Anstey. ' FIRST READINGS. The Justices of the Peace Amendment Bill and the Pharmacy Amendment Bill were received from the House- of Representatives, and read a first time. The Council rose at 9.15 p.m.