THE ESTIMATES.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1551, 21 September 1912, Page 6

THE ESTIMATES.

LANDS AND SURVEY, REFORMS SUGGESTED. . The Houso went into Committee on tho Estimates at 3 p.m. On Class 13; Lands and Survey, .£301,970 Mr. H. G. ELL (Cnristchurch South) suggested that the Government should hold lands in now townships on new lines of railway, and that the income should be paid into the national endowment fund to maintain old ago pensions. Mr. G. W. FORBES (Hurunui) thought land _ boards should give preference to married men in alloting sections of Crown land,' or land for settlement land. He also thought that tho definition of "landless" ought to be made more exact. ■ Mr. G. J. ANDERSON (Mataura) urged the necessity for purchasing estates in the Southland province for closer settlement. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) ' asked whether the Government proposed to take any stops to facilitate surveys. Mr. (i. WITTY (Riccarton) thought applicants for land who had never been successful' at a ballot should take precedenco of those who had already drawn a section at. a previous ballot. A Rift in the Lute. . . j Mr. T. M; WILFORD. (Hutt) said he did not believe, in- any of the leasehold proposals members had advanced. Ho believed, as he always had belieyed, that freehold was tho ■ best .tenure for - this country. Ho'moved that the salary of the Surveyor-General bo reduced by .£l, as an indication that the optional tenure was the tenure for this country. , Mr. Wilford had been called to order at the instance of Mr. Laurenson for discussing questions of policy, and a complicated discussion on points of order followed. First Mr. Wilford had moved to reduce the vote, by .£2, ■. but he was too late in calling for a division. Whereupon ho moved to reduce the item'by Jtl, and on that amendment he challenged; the division on the voices. The usual forms were followed, and tho bell was rung to summon members into the chamber. Again the question was put, and there 'was not'a single "aye,".but a.lusty chorus of "noes" from tlio Government benches. Mr. Wilford did not then call for division, but Mr. Witty did. Mr. Chairman was then in a quandary as to whom he should nominate as tellers. He called Mr. Wilford's name, and asked for a volunteer for tho vacant position. Mr. Witty said ho would tell with the honourable gentleman, although he did not support him. ■ Mr. Wilford said: "Then I will not tell with the honourable gentleman." Ho added 'that since the Government proposed to vote ogainst the amendment he would not go on with it. In (iho'end there, was no division.

Land Ballots and Surveys. Mr. 'h' POLAND (Ohinemnri) urged that ■ applicants to ballot for land should be examined by the Land Board near tho location of the land, instead of at tho board's headquarters, and that ballots should also be held as near as possible to the. land. He told of a case in his own district where applicants for land at Waihi had to go to Auckland ,-t'o be examined.

Mr. W. C.BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) asked the Minister whether he would see that, an improvement was effected in the survey of t lands for .settlement. Complaints were frequent as to the methods of cutting up used by the Survey Depart ment, and as to the lines on which tho roads were left. He said advisedly that millions of money had, been lost to this country by 'stupid reading. Having regard to the training required by a surveyor, it was not to be expected that an ordinary surveyor, with no knowledge of what would'be the expenses of fillings nnd cuttings, could ' be relied upon to chooso the moat suitable road lines. He

urged the matter as 'one sufficiently important to claim tho personal attention of the 'Minister. Speech by the Prime Minister. - ; The Hon. W.F. JIASSEY (Minister in Charge) replied to members' questions. Ho said he could not deal with the policy part of Mr. Ell's question re, township sections. His ndvico was that when townships were first opened for selection people would not tnko up leasehold sections, but after 1500 or 2000 people settled • there leasehold settlement? would go off. (Hear, hear.) ...../■ Mr. Ell: Utiku was settled. Mr. Massoy: I am told that Utiku is one of tho evil examples of leasehold tenure. Ho agreed with Mr. Anderson that land was.cheaper in Southland in proportion to its value than in any other part of New Zealand. Recently the Gov-, eminent had purchased the Maori Hill Estate, and on account of tho recent increase in tho price of flax, the' Government had teen able to sell the flax on tho estate for a very Rood round sum. • There was a shortage of qualified surveyors in New Zealand, but the annual examinations wrtild bo held shortly, and after

they were over the Government hoped to secure the services of 25 additional young surveyors. For this purpose the Government would ask for .EGOOO (ft the Supplementary Estimates. On the question of retaining rural endowments, he said ho had that day received representations from Nelson people urging that endowments there should be sold, because as they wore held they were blocking settlement. In future, so far as it could be arranged, roads would bo made to blocks of land before subdivision. 'Sales and ballots of settlement land would be held as near as possible to the land to bo subdivided. ; The attention of the Department had already been directed to the reading of estates for settlement, and he thought that for the future ciira would be taken that roads would ho so laid, out that they would bo capable of prbpor grading. An amending clause had'been introduced into the Land Bill' to provide for preference being given to. married men in land ballots. Mr. H. POLAND (Ohinemuri) suggested that thero was too great a tendency on the part of the surveyors to cut up bloeki for eettVonxJnC into too large holdings. . , . Kaltieko Settler). Mr. E. W. SMITE (Waimarino) spoko of the unhappy lot of the Kaitioke 6efc tiers. They had been asked to pay ton much for their land, and a romission of rent had been recommended by the Lan'l Board of the district to tho Minister. Most of them were hanging on merely by the grace of their .mortgagees in the anticipation of this reduction of rent. Ho proposed to give the members of tho Houso an opportunity of saying whether they thought recommendations of the Land Board for remissions of rent should bo carried out, and in order to do eo lie would move that tho voto bo reduced by £1. • . . Tho Hon. W. F. MASSET (Prime Minister) said he regretted that the Honourable gentleman nrid moved his amendment, because by it; hu was going to place the Knitieke settlers in a very serious position. The reports on the Department fi.lo were that in the case of Knitieke there were very few of the original eettlere left on too. block. They tad sold

out at a profit, and the new men wore agitating for a remission of rent. The Mnckcnzio Government hud turned down the application for this reason. In the new Lund Bill to bo introduced was a clause enabling settlers who found themselves in difficulties, asking for a remission of rent, to be granted a remission of rent on the understanding that tho amount of the remission would bo at once repaid to tho Crown in the event of j tho settler disposing of his holding at a profit. This clause would bo applicable to the Kaitieko settlers. If the. member proceeded with his amendment, and it was negatived, ho would place the settlers in the position that Parliament had retimed to give them assistance. Mr, R. W. SMITH,- however, repeated Hint ho was going to give members a chance of saying whether they would support the settlers' claims or not. Messrs. L. M. ISITT and T. H.DAVEY both confessed that they found it difficult to vote intelligently on the amendment without more information as to the facts. .Tho Hon. W. !■'. MASSEY raid that unfortunately he could not produce tho Departmental file. The circumstances were, however just us he had related them. Ho was anxious to do all ho could to assist the settlers, but until he could visit the locality or until the new clause he had referred to was mado law;, he could not recommend his colleagues' to vote for n remission of rent.

Mr! T. M. WILFORD and Mr. G. W. FORBES urgdrt that it was wrong that decisions of tile Land Board should bo overruled by officials of tho Lands.Departmont. On Land Boards. Mr. E. NEWMAN (Eanjfitikci) thought that to accept the doctrine of the previous speakers would put the Minister for Lands in! an untenable position. He thought that it was the duty of the Minister for Lands to see that the interests of the State were safeguarded, for it -wus at least conceivable that Land Boards should mnko a mistake. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said that .requests for remission of. rent ought, to be approached with a great deal of caution. This application from Kaitiekehad been. refused by tho Mackenzie Government after careful consideration, and ho felt bound,by the,decision. He was sorry ho could not vote for the amendment. Mr. J. COLVIN (Biiller). was inclined to distrust the accuracy of Mr. Russell's memory. The application, had not been refused by . lihe Mackenzie Government, but had been merely referred back to the Department for further inquiry. Mr. C. Ki WILSON (Taumarunni) dissented from- the view that Land Boards were always capable, well-advised men.. Why, only a' few years ago Land Boards were composed almost entirely of members of Parliament, and this was surely Biifficient evidence that Land Boards sometimes needed watching. On some lands settlers \iad been rented on such high values that it was impossible for them ever to be. other than poor men. Mr. G. HUNTER (Wnipawa) dissented entirely from the view that' the decision of' Land Boards should never'be gucs-' tioned. , ■ Mr. J. G. COATES (Kaipara) said he had had experience which led him to distrust Land Boards. He instanced a case of one block in his own. district which had been too highly valued, and,on which settlers had been placed by boards at values on which it would be impossible

for them to make money. , The Hon. W. F. MASSET said again that if the amendment were negatived it would be a direction from tho House that the rent of the Kaitieko. settlers could not be reduced. On. the other hand he had promised to give the settlers all possible consideration, under the new Bill. Mr. W.'-J. DICKIE (Sehvyn) thought the member for Waimarino would-be well advised to withdraw his amendment in view of the promise the Prime Minister had given.- He could not eupport the amendment. ' . ■-.-.■

Dr. TE RANGIHIROA (Northern Maori) said that the Mackenzie Government had not turned down the application of the Kaitieko settlers. The Minister had been-entirely sympathetic, but in the face of the Departmental reports then available, he. could not help them, lie supported the amendment. The Hon. F. 11.--B. (Minister for Customs) said the , 'la'st'speaker was , going to place himself in a very peculiar position in .trying to force the.- present Minister for Lands to do something which his own leader could not do. The Hon. W. F. MASSEY said he had just learned from tho head of the Lands Department that the amount involved, was ,£8770. Ho did;not think that amount should be thrown away by any Minister, for Lands without serious consideration. (Hear, hear.) At 8.55 a division was taken on the amendment, and the amendment was defeated by 37 votes to 17. Noxious. Weeds. ■ Several members discussed the item, "Eradication of Noxious Weeds, ,£5000," remarking upon the fact that only some .£543 had been expended last year. Somo urged that tho Act under which private owners were prosecuted should be repealed, on the ground that it was impossiblo to. keep down weeds on bush lands and other rough country. ' Tho Hon. W. F. MASSEY explained that, last year ,£2OOO was voted. for the eradication of noxious weeds on Crown, lands. The Government asked this year for a larger sum, ,£SOOO, for this purpose. Government had no intention ■ of asking Parliament to repeal the Act now in force, but he would seo that it was administered fairly and not with severity. Mr. T. M. WILFOED (Hutt) • suggested that every assistance should bo given to settlers endeavouring to bring into cultivation areas subject to sand-drift.

The Him: W. F. MASSEY (Prime Minister) explained that the .£25 on the Estimates was simply for administrative expenses, for there was also a vote of .€SOO for actual reclamation. If that wero not-sufficient, more money wpuld be taken. As evidence that tho Government was in earnest in .the matter, he mentioned that one of the principal officers of tlio Department would visit Otaki'oji the following day, and report on tho sand-dunes there.

Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) Eaid that Oiere were 290,000 acres in the North .Island and 24,000 acres in tho South Island subject to sand-drift, arid lie was glad that the Minister did not propose to limit his efforts by tho vote on the Estimates. Mr. W. C. BUCHANAN and Mr. D. BUICK also approved of the Minister's intention to take hold of the business. The, vote was passed without amendment. . ... AGRICULTURE. The class, Department of Agriculture, Industries, and Commerce, £163,079, was next considered. In answer to Mr. Witty, the Prime Minister stated that he had already embarked upon the proposal.to establish an experiment farm in Canterbury. A site had not.been chosen yet, but ho had arranged to meet a sulj-comrait{ee •of the A. and P. Association after the session, imd with the committee ho would inspect several small farms in the district. Ho hoped to have decided upon a.site before Christmas. The vote was passed after half an hour. STATE FORESTS. The New Zealand State Forests Account, a vote of XL'.1,150 passod without a question. ■ ■ ■ ■ '.' STATE COAL MINES.

On the class, Stato Coal Mines Account, •£2-14,331-Mr. J. H. BKADNEY (Auckland West) said that if the- State coal mines and depots were to be run at all in future, ho hoped they would show better /results. In reply to other membors, The Hon. W. PHASER (Minister for Mines) said he had had prepared a full report of the history of tho Stato Coal Department sinco its inception, and ho proposed to present it to the House. JThe Seddonville mino had been' worked (it a small profit .btcAusa tho Union Coinpnny took all the coal from the pit mouth, but there was no indication that tho mino could be worked for more than a couplo of years. Tho Point Elizabeth mine, from which a great deal of eonl had been won, Was nlso being exhausted, ttnd it would probably be'closed down in about two years. The prospects of the Point. Elizabeth mino number 2, to which a very oxponsivo railway had been constructed through a precipitous gorge, wrre rather brighter. The Dopartmont.nl report paid that the mino would give an nniinnl output/of 51)0,1)00 tons for'M y<?nrs. The Hon. R. M'KEXZIK " (Motuek.i) Fflid he believed the. Point Elizabeth mine would.riot be worked out for twelve vear.i .ret. He urjrd Hint tho money !«p<>iit on the State CO4I Department had been niMt

profitable expenditure for the Dominion. Mr. T. E. Y. SEDDON (Wcstland) askcd why tho Department had not token over the Wnllsend mine. Mr. I'razer: lor the best of all reasons: because the Department did not think it would pny them. The yoto was ngreed to after very brief discussion. OTHER VOTES. • The following classes were passed almost unchallenged:—Public Trust, 994• Scenery Preservation, ,£11,650; lands 'or Settlement, X12,fi32; Government Insurniico .Account, .E68.420; Government Accident Insurnnco Account, .£7110; State Fire Insurance Account, .£l<,26G wero passed unaltered. Progress was reported and tho House roso at 1.2 a a.m. Following is the certified list of pairs in the crucial division on the Public Service Bill on Thursday night. The division was on the amendment proposed by Mr. T. H. Davey (Christchurch East), that the Post and Telegraph Sorvico bo I excluded from the provisions of tho Bill-.— For the Amendment: Hanan, Russell, Brown, Laurenson, Vcitch, Buiton. Against tho Amendment: Bollard (J.), Mnnder, Lee, Newman (E.), Newman (A. K.), Malcolm. ■ V The M to Z Committee reported to the House of Eepresentatives yesterday on tho petition of Jessie Evelyn Stratford, of Pahiatua, for payment of the costs of ■a suit of a deoree of nullity of her marriage with one Win. Jas. Jackson. • The petition was referred to the Government for full inquiry and consideration. Wilmot Clifton Quinnell, member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons (London), now of Wellington, has petitioned Parliament asking that a veterinary and farrier institute be established in the Dominion, and that 1113 speeTal qualifications and experience should ■ bo considered when a staff is being appointed. The petition was presented by the Hon. A. L. Herdman.