PUBLIC SERVANTS.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1542, 11 September 1912, Page 4

PUBLIC SERVANTS.

« HON. 'A, L, HERDMAN INTER. VIEWED. REFORM BILL APPROVED. SOME AMENDMENTS SUGGESTED. Representations on the subject of tho Service Bill,-now beforo Parliament, were made yesterday to the Minis-ter-in-Chargo of that measure (tho Hon. A. L. Herdman) by a deputation representing tho New, Zenhind Civil Service Association. A number of amendments wejjo suggested, prio or which, at least, of gy^kt'importance, but unqualified approval was expressed of the basic prineiplo underlying tho Reform Bill. Mr. G. Allport (Secretary for Shrine), who acted as spokesman,. said-that the Civil Servioe, as represented by tho assoeialtion,,was .very glad ,that the Bill Jiad been introduced, approved its principle ,and trusted' that tho Minister would bo abjje, di'rtng tho present session, to get it pafecd into law. Mr. Allport then ,'proto discuss sbmo of the clauses of the; Bill.-In Section G, he said,. provision was made that if tin officer used political .Influence to better his position, ho should "xi forthwith dismissed. They would sugVcSt; instead that, an officer accused of using political iniluonCo should bo forthwith suspended,'.,and should bo dismissed if Jjound/ guilty ..after duo inquiry.

Jj: A Board Suggested, Tlio principal suggestion thev had to make related to Section 7, dealing with .the..-appointment of tho Chief Commissiqtfer and two assistants. Tho association considered that it would be better to appoint a board .of.throe, commissioners, and would ask tho; Minister to make this alteration if ho could see his way to do it. One.of the three commissioners should be chairman,-and should have power in certain circumstances to override tho decision of the other two commissioners if he considered it necessary in the interest of the service-to do so: They proposed that ho should novo this right prodded thi;eo clear, days:."elapsed-, between the giving of jhc decision^mid the Chief Commissioner deciding to override it. As tho ■Bill stood, the two- assistant commissioners would bo pretty nearly nonentities. Their positions would be about as important as thoso of chief clerks, since-thev ™1 no independent powers under the Jlili, and could ho. .dismissed on "the recommendation of tho Chief Commissioner. The, association approved the proposal to give tho principal -commissioner a salarv of $1300' a. .year, but "the others should each receive J!1000 a year instead of MOO a year as proposed in the Bill. If either or Both of" the assistant-commissioners or members of a board, as the case" might bo,>'erc drawn from the higher ranks of thcPublie Service, it- v;onld -bo.'.difficult to get the best man"'to accept.appointment of. the salaries in tho Bill, 'The commissioners,, if -nbpointed from _ tho Public Service;." should retain allj-ights to compensation -.-as well as to superannuation. The "professional divi-. sipri,' in the proposed grading 'of the service, should be called, tho .professional and: technical division. '.'There::would.be many, officers in that division" who "would comemow properly under "the" designation, technical' than "professional:"'"•"■-

Appeals: Representation 'by''.^Counsel. In" the case of ■provided.for in Section .11 of the Bill, officers should: be given the right to be represented by counsel or agent. Many men'appearing More a cfl)irt or- Appeal; board:were practically "done," and could not puttheir thoughts or iVrgnroonts into Droper form. It tt-as not wade clenriri th"e Bill,-;bltt'shbuld bej' that no commissioner should be ,eligible for'appointment to the Board of Appeal.' Provision was made in tlife 'Billthat the' commissioner might make regulations "subject to, the 'approval of the Governor."''lnstead itshould be provided that the commissioner miglit make relations subject to tho provisions of the Act. and to the approval of the Governor-in-Coun-cil. As the clause stood..regulations, might bo approved by the'.-Minister for Internal Attain. Mention was made in the Bill of a fidelity bond. •'..■. The Minister here interjected that it was intended to incorporate in the Bill the whole of the provisions of, the Government Officers' Guarantee Act. Mr.-)Allport next-suggested that medical examinations should only.be enforced in the case of thoso whom it was proposed to appoint to the Publio Service, and riot as a ., preliminary to entering ■: for the junior or'senior Civil Service examinations. „. Eower.. was; .given under the Bill Jo deport.; from'its-provisions relating to appointments in the case of o.'public! work or scheme. . .These, terms should bo more exactly defined. ' ■" '"'

: Officers on Trial. . Section 59 provided that in the event of Was .to bo, tried boing ficrvcdl'in a certain way with a notice (ifihisj: address were not known), when this had boon ddno an inquiry should bo 'held in his absence. They would ask tho Minister to alter "shall" in the section to ,"niay." An officer might not hear of tho-inriniry until the Inst moment, and might'a'rrivc at the Inst moment.' As the section" stood, tho board wouid then say: , "The'.'-law siiyj. that the inquiry must ;,bo ..held \in. your absence." Provision should be made for tlw fecognitioniTof examinations already passed by dflicers, such as the Junior and Senior Civil Service, matriculation, accountancy; solicitors',,.and .-kindred- examinations in grading and promoting officers. These' woro examinations .which to: some extent \ proved the knowledge and competency .of ah'.-ofticer; aritl "they should be allowed;to:-cmint in so far as they were considered valuable. An .officer in tho clerical, division' should be' given an opportunity to qualify,, for the professional division. Many officers might desire to do this ami they should, bo encouraged to do so. l'lie association, considered thai-, the section providing that evidence might bo taken in. cases where officers were accused'should bo altered to provide that sworn evidence should be taken and that false evidence should. be punishable as T*rj;»ryv They did not ask. that ■'■■ tho whole.Jaw-of evidence should he strictly enforced us this. might not ■be advisable J revision should bo made for notifying a. vacancy in n higher grade. Avery officer should be given an onportnmty of applying for such a position if he deemed it advisable.

' ITIio Schedule of Salaries, Tho,schedule, of salaries in tho Bill was piacticaljy tho classification of the Post and Telegraph Department. It was not *> K°<M, OS tho classification trronoscd in :?&. BI H .'P-froduced bv Mr, Herdman in 1909. Under the 1903 Bill a salary- of a year might bo attained in 'seven years; under tho present Bill in 12 years; ?«£« SK °° * 2(!0 'n'n'ne Tears under the 1909 Bill and .in 15-year? under the present Bill. Other .salaries could be attained .respectively under the 1909 and pre«nt Bills as follow ■—£%!) in 13 and 22 years: £UQ in 17 and 27 years; and £M in .20 and 30 years. Under the 1909 „}L th(lre •■ w # s a maximum salarv of ** »», "ffainsf MOO: under tho present 8i11... Thev admitted.- Mr. Allport .continued,/that the schedule.in the oresent Bill was a better schedule and gave bet.ter.salaries in most cases than the pre-' ppsed classification Board. This latter classification they submitted. howoWer should not be taken as a guide. It, had never been approved and had it been approved it would have- caused the greatest dissatisfaction in the Service. Mo provision .was made in this Bill for a. maximum age- at which officers should retire. Tho Superannuation Ant provided that an officer mieht retire at the ago of C 5. They thought", this a reasonable age, and considered- that with the exception of mespengorsand a'few officers of thitt..closs it would bo a satisfactory retirin'*oge Mr. Ferdmim's Bill .of ..'1909 provided that. Gil miriit..:be the. retiring, .«<». This permission-could -be-given- now by tho Government,-under'the . Supefarmna-' lion Act, and tbeydid not ask for it'tiotf.' They considered (15 a reasonable tnnximurii which would (ipen. the wav- for the pro-motion-of'yonngor men. In Section 39 provision was niada that the Commissioner should arrange for the placo of examination, .and the,, number ■ of cnni-> pstitors to lie admitted to such.examination. The last lino should be'left but, and all competitors who. wanted :trt should bo allowed to come in for "examination. Finally, Mr. Allport thanked the Mini.w for receiving the deputation,-and for -introducing the Bill, which they believed would bo a creat benefit to the service and a great benefit to the country. At tho suggestion of Mr.,J. D. Avery, Mr. Allport elaborated his previous re-

marks about tho constitution of tho proposed board of commissioners, They considered, Mr. Allport said, that the chnir,lllllll should he tho head of tho hoard; practically he. should be an executive officer of tho board. If )io disagreed with the board and overrode its decision, he should bo required to'.report fullv to tho Governor upon his reasons for disagreelug with and overriding the majority of the board. This report should be laid boforo Parliament.

THE MINISTER IN REPLY. PROMISED MODIFICATIONS. Tho Minister, in reply, said that it was a very great pleasure to meet a deputation of gentlemen who were so familiar with the position of tho Public Service, and it was exceedingly gratifying to learn from them that they had approved the basic principle of the Bill, A great many of the suggestions made were of great value. He, would be glad to consider and, if possible, givo effect to the wishes expressed on behalf of tho deputation. He asked that a memorandum should bo forwarded to him, setting forth tho vnriqns points that had been raised. Tho principal mutter brought under his notice, ho continued, had been tho suggestion in relation to tho constitution of the proposed Civil Service Board. Naturally, before deciding upon the plan which was outlined in the Bill, ho had given it a_ considerable amount of' thought. In Now South Wales at tho present time there was a board of threo commissioners, all on an equal footing. In Victoria there was a Chief Commissioner and two assistants. Tho railways in Now South Wales were ndministerecl by a Chief Commissioner and two assistants. In tho Commonwealth tho Public Service was controlled by a Chief Commissioner, who was assisted by six inspectors. From inquiries which ho had made, tho system which seemed to work best was the "Commonwealth system. Ho had not adopted that system here because, for one thing, he did not want to call tho officials inTlie system in operation in New South Wales in connection with the railways, of having a Chief Commissioner and two assistants, hod been adopted after a board of threo commissioners lind been tried and found unsatisfactory. After an inquiry held into the working of the lastnamed system, it was decided that there should be a Chief Commissioner and. two assistants, lie was inclined to agree to the suggestion that the salary of an 'assistant commissioner should be .£10(10 a year. He would have to refer this proposal to Cabinet, but was personally inclined to seriously consider it.

Political Influence. As to the suggestion that an officer suspected of using' political influence should be suspended pending an inquiry, instead of being instantly dismissed, if he .could alter the section to make it conform to their wishes he would do so. An amendment would be inserted to provide that Public Servants appointed as commissioners should retain compensation as . \vell as. superannuation rights. Ho would take' into consideration- the suggestion to alter the professional division to a professional and'technical'division., but the addition of the 'word' technical might create a very large division and lead to complications. As to the proposal regarding Section 32, that. 1 appellnnts should ■ -be'.allowed, .to employ counsel or agents, ' ho did .riot :think .thaf there was any ser- : 'ions to this; .The principal ob- , joction which was urged'against tho employment of .counsel or ngents was that gentlemen who belonged to the legal profession were, generally understood to prolong proceedings before a>Court or Board unnecessarily. His own instincts were to'permit.an appellant to employ counsel if ho wished to do so. Ho tvns glad to hear that they approved generally of the constitution of the board. Mr. Airport: We are stronglv of opinion that there should be-that, board. ~-.*.< "Mr,'Herdman continued that as to I tho : provision relating to the framing of regulations he had no objection to striking out the word ''governor'' and inserting gpvernor-in-eouncil." Ho Was prepared to make the alteration in regard to medical examinations, desired by the deputation. As to Section 41', ho was disposed' to agree to the suggestion that it should bo left entirely to tho commissioner to make appointments. , This would ab. solutely protect the Service and the State.

A Difficult Matter. As to Section i", dealing with public works .and their desire that "public work or scheme'" should be more it y defined, .this was a difficult matteT. This'section had. been copied from the •Aew South Wales Act. It wis intended to cover such works as tho erection of a big post oflice or the carrying, out of a big Tailway scheme. Power to employ .labours for'such work could be'delegated to assistant commissioners or to a. person or persons approved by the Governor. In the ease of a bis railway -work tho commissioner could delegate his powers to the engineer-in-chief or in charge of the work. This' was what the section was intended to cover. It was intended to ensure.that tho country should get tho best men available. If it were possible to more clearly define "public work" or scheme," ho wolihl do it. As to the taking of sworn evidence, the rule provided that tjic.se inquiries should be made' under the Commissioners' Powers Act Phis would provide that' evidence might be taken on oath. ■i... M Ai Al ! , ! ort sai(l that it olso provided that the 'best evidence, procurable" might be' taken. '..•••■ , • t Mr. Hordinau: You don't want any hearsay evidence to bo taken? He added that ho concurred DOrsonally in this viewbut did not'know what view the House would take of the.matter. . , Mr -, AHport said that tho \ association felt that an officer might fee unjustly condemned on evidence that was not evidence m the strict sense—on tittle-tattle, in fact -and they thought that this should be guarded against. . ' Mr. Herdman said that if he could see his v;ay. to accede to the request in retard to this matter ho would.be glad to do it. Thß Schedule. .It had said that the schedule in the present Bill was not so favourable as that of a Bill introduced by himself m 1809. There were two reasons for this. At. the present time a very largo section of the Public Service .worked under the Post and Telegraph Classification Act, flna there must bo uniformity in a scheme of'this kind. Tho schedule of salaries in the Bill was better than that proposed under : the proposed classification. The second point was that he had to consider tho Minister for Finance. He was satisfied that theschedulo of salaries contained in the Bill would not embarrass the Minister for Finance and at the same time it would out many of the officers on a better footing than at present. Ho thought officers would come to the conclusion that the schedule was fair and reasonable and would give satisfaction. As to compulsory retiring age, in drafting this Bill he had avoided interfering with the provisions of the pTesent law relating to retiring and superannuation. Concluding, Mr.'Herdman said that he i<;as very much obliged to the deputation for coming along and was glad to know that he had the support, or at any rate the sympathy of the gentlemen belonging to the Public Service.