RAILWAYS.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1536, 4 September 1912, Page 8

RAILWAYS.

CARRIAGE OF RACEHORSES. A CONCESSION UNDER REVIEW. In the Railway Estimates, Mr. H. G. ELL (Christchureh South) moved that the item, "Contingencies, •£4088," be reduced by ,£1 as an indication that racehorses and polo ponies should not be carried free on the railways. He did not think racehorses should be car'nocl at a loss—one way tree—while other concessions could.not bo granted to children and to workers.' ' . .

The Hon. AV. H. HERRIES -(Minister for Railways) said he hoped the Houso would not carry the motion. It was the custom on practically all railways in the world to curry racehorses free, because it was recognised that very many people went to races by train. Races were very profitable to the Department. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey Lynn) thought racehorse owners should pay for tho carriage of their horses. Mr. H. G. ELL said he had no objection to horse-racing, but he argued that the railways would not carry one horse less if tho freight were charged. Mr. Fisher: Did you ask this question last year? ' Mr. Ell admitted .that he had not,, but sinco he had found out that racehorses wore carried free he had been of opinion that the concession was an unjust one. The Hon. AV. H. HERRIES said the withdrawal of tho concession would not affect wealthy owners or wealthy clubs, but small- owners who raced at country meetings. Sir JOSEPH WARD (Awarua) said he would vole, against the motion. It was not, he thought, the business of the Railway Department, as the great common carrier of tho country, to do anything more than to secure business for itself. Mr. E. P. LEE (Oamafu) said the proposition wp.s exactly as Sir Joseph Ward had slated it. It was a business deal, and it had nothing to do with concessions to workers or children or anyone- else. Mr. .T. H. BRADNEY (Auckland AVest) opposed the motion on the same ground. There ought tn be le?s sentiment .and more business in the control of the railways, and this was one reason why they should be removed from Parliamentary control.

Mr. 0. WITTY (Riccarton) said the question was not one of sentiment merely. The cutting out of this concession would mean a reduction of revenue, which would mean a reduction of concessions to everyMr! L. jr. ISITT ((Vhristchiirrli North) '.Mipporfod the motion. He did not think- it wns good- wononiics i o gi"? eonce-sions to yet revenue.. by enoournging people to lt-aste tuouey ou the vies of racecouree. sanjbliuß.

A division was taken on this the first inotionN to reduce tho Estimates. The motion was lost by W votes to 11. The members voting for the motion were Messrs. Robertson, Hindmarsh, Veitch, Payne, Ngata, Sidey, Ell, Malcolm, Buxtou, Craigie, and lsitt.

Losses on Railways, Mr. W. C. BUCHANAN (Wairarapa) drew attention to tho losses _ that wero beinsf incurred on railway lines under construction. The Nelson line, which had cost to date .£-108,382. returned in interest last year only 12s. 3d. per cent, on the capital cost. He made the loss last year £13,763, and the total loss on the line to dato ,£3i3.b,570. On the Pietou line there had been a loss of ,£18,79!), the rate of interest on capital cost it had returned being 12s. 9d. per cent. Adding the loss last year to the loss of previous years there had been a total loss of .£505,922. The sum of successive annual losses through failure to earn enough income to pay working expenses and income was «£248,465. Compound interest on these successive annual losses amounted to .4228,658, making a total of X' 505.922. It was of very little use crying over spilt milk, but he would ask the Minister whether these losses could not be minimised in any.way. For instance, he noted that there were three trains per day from/Picton to Blenheim.- The Wairarapa and other lines that were paying interest to tlie public were uot so well served. . . <

Mr. M'Calhini: Completed lines. He added that it was no part of Vogel's policy to leave lines uncompleted. "Mr. Buchauan said that they were not discussing Vogel's policy. He was asking the Minister, for Railways whether ho could not minimise theso losses that were going on from year.to year. There must be,some way of curtailing them.

Mr. Russell: Do you suggest stopping the lines? Mr. Buchanan: .Xo, I don't. That would be a very poor remedy indeed. I am asking tho Minister' for Railways whether he can , cut down these losses to some extent. ■ ■ ■ •

. Mr. H. ATMORE (Nelson) said, thst this attack on lines that were not paying was becoming an obsession with .the lion, gentleman. He (Mr. Buchanan), represented a district that was pretty well served with railways. The Nelson line would not pay until it reached Murchison, a further distance of 23 miles. It ill became.a man who represented the largo land-owners to put any obstacle at all,in,the way of struggling settlers. In the Mhirchison County there were 1,030,000 acres of some of the finest land in New Zealand. The hon. member for Wairarnpa, who was continually girding at this line, had not. seen the country, and was not competent to speak about it. Much of the land in the Murchisoii County was owned by the State. He hoped that the House -would not be influenced by the views of the member for Wairarapa; but would take the same view as the Minister for Railways and the' lion, member for the Bay of Plentv, both of whom considered that the lino should go through.

The Minister's Position. ' The H«ai. .W. H. HEREIES said, he did not wish the committee .to discuss questions of public works, and he would ask the..Chairman's..ruling as to -whether discussion on tho extension of lines was in order on the Estimates. This was the treiid the discussion was taking. He did not want to interefero with the h'on. ' member' tor Nelson, while he was speaking, because, ho was right in defending his line. But the views he expressed were such as should be expressed on the Public Works..Statement.' ■ '■ -.'■■ ' Mr. Atiriore':. I did it , in reply, to .the statement riiade that it'was a non-paying line.. ...' ... ■.'• ... ..' •..' ' ..- . Mr.. Herries .repeated that., ho took .no exception- to Mr. Atmore liiaking the speech. -It was-his duty.-to put the cae» for his constituents. Ho-went 6h to state that thc.net revenue on the Kelson,and Fictoh lines was small, but in the case of the former line there wei-o certain larger works by way of renewals which were a charge" upon the profits. Replying to another criticism, regarding differential rates, that they were customary.in every railway system in the world to compete'with: water carriage. And in differential rates there must necessarily ho anomalies. ' " "" Mr. R. M'CALLUM (Wairau) said that although the Nelson line earned only 12s. 7d. .pot.cent., and the Pictou line only 12s. 9d. per cent., this was not necessarily an argument for reducing the services on those lines. The reduction.of the services might mean that , the lines would oarn even less towards paying interest on their capital cost. In reply to Mr. Buchanan he said that if a. separate account were kept for the Greytown branch, in Mr. Buchanan's district, it would be found that it would not pay axle grease, to say nothing of working expenses. In support of his proposed new line the member for Wairarapa • had no need to go outside his own district to find examples of non-paying linos.- t

Differential Rates. Mr. A. S.'MALCOLM (Giutha) joined issue with the Minister on the question-of differential-rates.'■ He''pointed out that in New Zealand we were-running ' our. railways as a national'undertaking, arid not us'a commercial venture. 111. England, and in-other countries the companies, had no concern for congesting'people, in cities, had no concern for ruining a rising port. He (Mr.. Malcolm) hoped differential rates would be abolished. Mr. J. H. BRADNEY (Auckland West) supported differential rates.as being necessary in the interests of sound railway finance. ' ;

Another Amendment. ; . Mr. J. ROBERTSON (Otaki) thought there was no need for differential rales, or other high rates, to make the railways earn dividends. So soon as they were run to earn dividends they would cease to pay from a national point of view. He moved that the item "Traffic Branch, .£23,848," be reduced by JSI, as an indication that "it is the desire of this House that children under .the age of five years should bo carried free on the railways, and children under 14 years of ago at a quarter of the ordinary secondclass fare, if and when they are accompanied by parents." ' Mr. H. ATMpRE (Nelson) supported the motion. He thought a railway was paying in the truest sense when it wns rendering efficient service to the community. As an example of a non-paying railway he quoted the section of a line running from Lambton along the waterfront to To Aro, on which he believed the loss was at the rate of .£IOO a week. This was a. position that needed investigation, for the money could lie much better snent in giving belter facilities to back-block settlers. Mr. H. G. ELL (Cbristchureh South) also supported the motion. Four Per Cent. Necessary. Mr. A. HARRIS (Woitsmata) said that the railways had paid less than 4 per cent, last year, and until they paid at least -I , per coat, it would ho impossible to give more concessions. If the railways could afford to do it, he would be one of thy first to support the granting of a concession which, would cost from =040,000 to ,£50,000. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) said he enthusiastically supported the motion. The Hon. W. 11. HERRIES said he couW ask the Chairman to stop ths doscussion'an the ground that it was a question of policy, but lie. did not propese to do that. The avowed object of the. motion was to encourage people to have largo families, and hn did not think ono Department of State should l>3 called upon to pay the whole co.'t of this policy change. . Ho must resist the concession this year. He could not. *ven pay M per cent, 'this year if lie wore able to lose A 40.000 or .£50,001). The iittle biiiuiiw iic wuuid be. able to show above, tluee and threequarters would bo absorbed by advances for railway forvanU. He could not advise the House to take the risk of reduciiig the profit below 3J per cent. If this occurred the. English money-lender would at once think that this was due to the country's failing prosperity. If at the point of the bayonet hr was forced to grant this concession, ho would have to economise in other ways, for which lion, members would blame him. He asked hon. members not to insist Upon this concession this year, when- finances wero not its-comfartoblc as could b? desired.

~Mr. W. A. VEITCEI (Wanganui) said that every member in the House wished in sco this concession granted, but the effect of granting concessions in the past had been bad. .The railway servants had hod to pay through the nose for it. Xo concession 'should be granted unless lh» House was willing -that other revenue could he raised by Ih? railways in some other way. Kb thought the initial blunder, u railway administration vraa..

made when the Minister was forced to aim at getting 1 per cent, instead of 3 per cent, on railways.

A Hard Row to Hoe. The Hon.'W. F. MASSEY (Prime Ministcr) said the Government were not opposing the motion because they objected to carrying children free, but because the Government simply could not afford H. The Minister for Railways had a very hard row to how. The Hon. J, A. Millar had sought to malie the railways pay, and had had fair succe;?, but on Ins retirement from office the management went to (lie other extreme, and gave many concessions. He asked tho House to consider the slate of the country's finances. Was it right for the Government to make ready for going on the London market for another loan? 'What would be the effect of this concession? Losses would have to be met. Mr. Payne: Raise fores and freights. Mr. MASSEY agreed that other taxation would have to be raised. He would be glad, to give effect to the principle contained in the amendment, but the real fact was that the finances of the country would not stand it. At present the/*request was not a fair one to ask for. Mr. G. WITTY (Eiccartor.) said that the Estimates allowed the Minister a fair working margin, of profit.

Wanted For Employees, ' Mr. Herries: I want' that for the emploveos. .Mr. Witty suggested that it would be possible to provide for the employees' advances as well as to give the concession. Mr. Herries: You can't have both. Mr. G. W.- RUSSELL (Avon) said he did not agree that the return from the railways Should be cut down to 3 per cent. Ho hoped tho vote would not bo a party.vote, and that it would'be accepted by the House as affirming . tho principle that the concession ought to be granted by the .Department so soon as linances would allow.

The Hon. W. t'. MASSEY-said the hon. j member had stated his case plausibly, but not quite fairly. If this motion wore, carried it meant that the Government would be compelled to choose this as tho .first direction in which any concessions could be made. One concession he mentioned was to country people travelling on suburban lines, who paid for that privilege GO per cent, more than suburban dwellers. This was not tho rule in any other, country in tli-o world. If the finances were in a better condition when the House met uext year the Minister would no doubt give it more favourable consideration. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) disagreed with the assertion that the concession would ruin the country's, ciedit. In any case the estimated loss of .£40,000 or ,£50,000 was. a pure assumption. Mr. .H. G. ELL (Christchurch South) said that tho concession would be.in the interest of tho country settlers. Mr. Hine: Why didn't you grant it? Mr. Ell: We didn't have time. What I said, was: "If we. don't do it, they won't." Mr. Hine: You knew we were coming in, then? ' ' ' ' Mr. Ell: Knowing that theife were, some rodents in the party, I knew that there was not much chanco of our holding office. He contonded that the late Ministry had done its work well. . • Mr. Hine: You had a good time while you wero there..

Tho Concession Defended. Mr. J. ROBERTSON (Otaki), as he'rose to speak at 0.20 a.ni., was met by cries of "Vote," "Vote." Hβ contended that the proposal before, tho House'was not •one that-would cost the country .£IO,OOO or JC50.000. ■ ■ .-.-.. Mr.. Homes said.that if the/proposal were carried it t would bo impo-sible to discriminate. Mr. Robertson said he had advocated 'this proposal bccauW ho thought- that the railways should. Iμ a service rather than a profit-ranking concern. He agreed that the fixing of. the 4 par cent, standard had been n mistake. It .was the members of the present Government when in Opposition Who had forced the four.per cont. policy upon the Government of the day. Mr, J.. H. BRADNEY. (Auckland Wait) said that the railway's should bo made. to. pay, and the profits' from the 'railways; .should be expended in the construction r.f ■roads to act us feeders to the railways. Mr. E. NEWMAN (Rangitil-ei) sail ■that ho would vote against the proposal because.of the statement by tho Minister that to carry it now might endanger the granting of increases to railway servants. This was a matter which must. first receive attention. Tho Minister had promised to favourably consider tho concession .to children when the slate of the finances made it possible to do m>. This was a reasonable reply. He (Mr. Newman) hoped to. see the proposal revived next year. At the proper time ho would support it. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said in asking the Goi-ernment to make this concession the Opposition was risking it lo fulfil its promises and the policy, on which it went to the country. Mr. .1. H.. ESCOTT (Pahialua) ' faid that as the amendment, read orphans would not be entitle'd-'to "concessions, ami how many poor working people could afferd to travel with.t.heir children.'" The amendment .was clearly designed with intent to put the Government in'an awkwoTd position.

Some.Figures., . ■•'-■-. _• Mr. AY. A. VEITCH (AVanganui) said that before' the' House voted, he wanted to put a/ few figures before, it. In 1908-9 there were 4544 men in. the Railway Maintenance Department. In the following I year, although there had been a material increase in business, the number of men • was reduced to 4228. In the' following] year there was again a slight increase,to 4301, but even now. there were not so many men by over 200 in the Maintenance Department as there were a few years ago. It did not lake a railway expert to know that if railway officers wei-o pressed tho effect would be that eventually passengers would be thrown into the ditqh owing to the lines not being kept in proper order. The railway service now was in real good working order, nnd ho did not want to see a repetition of what had happened in ' Victoria. There they got in a new officer, nnd.he showed fome splendid figures, but it was not long before somo serious accidents occurred. He was sorry indeed that ]}e could not record his vote for this proposal, believing that Mr. Robertson had brought it down in no party spirit, but folelv from a desire to make conditions of life better for working people. The amendment was defeated on a division by 36 votes to 24. Following was the division list:— Ayes (24): Atmcre, Buxton, Clark, Colvin. Davey, Ell, Glover, Hanan, ,Isitt, M'Callum, Mac Donald, M'Kenzic, Ngata, Payne, Poland, Rangihiroa; Robertson, Russell, Seddon, Sidey, R. AY. Smith, J. C. Thomson, "Ward, Witty., ' Noe,= (3G): Allen, Bell, Bollard (2), Bradney, Buchanan, Buick, Campbell, Coates, Dickie, Kscott, Fisher, Frnser, Guthrie, Harris, flerdman, Herries, 'Hine, Malcolm, Marnier, Massey, E. Newman, Nosworthy, Okey, Pearce, Pomare, Reed, Rhodes (2), Scott, F. H. Smith, Statham, Sykes, Vciircli, AVilsnn, Young. When members returned to their places at 1.5 a.m., Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said that there had been a full and fair discussion. No one could say that there had been any waste of time. He hoped that the Prime Minister would agree to adjourn. Tho PRIME MINISTER "id that ho hatl no fault, to find wHh wlint hnd Wn done that day. Criticism had been very fair. At least an hour'had bwn wiislnil, however. Earlier in the evening he hud told the lion, gentleman that lie was quite willing to adjourn at 11.30 provided tho Railways Class wore Tinned. Mr. Witty said that there might b? furtb«T amendments. Government members: Come on!

Freight on Food. Mr. KU said that this was the old story of the brutal majority. (Laughter.) The hon. gentleman had a servile majority behind him, and was minded to do a bit of slave-driving.* (Renewed laughter.) Ho moved the reduction by .£1 of the item "Traffic expenses, .£705,525," as an indication that, freight on food and other necessaries carried into country districts should l>3 reduced. • Jlr. Russell moved that the Committee report progress, and ask leave to eit again. He did this, ho said, as a. protest against the driving tactics of the Government. The Liberal parly had often lwcn accused of trying to secure legislation by exhaustion. The present. Government was incurring the sime reproneh at the outset of ilft carper. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Chrisklwrch North) declared that the debate, hod been an hoiifist' oil* so far ."as bis side of the House

■was concerned. Ho had never in his experience of Parliament known a worse easo of the Leader of Hie House using heavy boots and heavy whips on members.

Whan the question was put, there was a chorus of "ayes" and "noes" on either side. The Chairman declared for the

"ayes," and immediately corrected himself. There was hilarious applause from the Opposition benches,, and Mr. Han.in and Mr. Kussell both rose 1o protest that the motion had been carried, and that no division had been called for. The division had of course been called for, and the Committee did not report progress just then. The result of Hie vote was that the motion was defeated by 37 votes to 18. Mr. Ell's amendment was defeated by 3G votes to 18. ' Mr. Isitt moved to reduce, by £1, the item, "Lake Wakati-pu Steamer Service, iiGOOO," as an indication that casuals in the railway service should receive the same travelling facilities as permanent members of the railway staff. Mr. Herries said that casuals got the saine facilities as permanent men if they worked for 24 hours in any one week. Mr. Isitt's motion was lost on the voices. At 2 a.m. Mr. M'Callum moved to report progress, but the motion was lost on the voices. Mr. G. W. Russell moved to reduce the amount on the class by £\, as an indication that freights should be reduced • in such a way as to promote local industries. This motion was-defeated on the voices. '

At 2.10 a.m. . the Railway Class, .£2,516,600, was passed on the voices, unameiided. Progress was then reported, and the House rose.