THE COUNCIL.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1530, 28 August 1912, Page 8

THE COUNCIL.

CONSTITUTION OF THE CHAMBER. In the Legislative Council yesterday afternoon the debate on the second reading of tho Legislative Council Election - Bill was continued. VIEWS OF THE HON, W. W. M'CARDLE. PREPARED TO HELP REFORM. The Hon/W. W. M'CARDLE said that he intended to vote for the second reading of the Bill. There wero some ways in which the nominative system could be improved, but to suggest amendments was the business of the Government. He disagreed with tho view that the people had demanded a change, in the constitution of the Council. The Hon. Mr. Paul, in delving into tho misty past, had quoted Sir George Grey as a man who hail been in favour of an elective Council, but Sir George Grey had had opportunities of.making an endeavour to niter the constitution, and had not availed of them. If tho Council wero elected in 191-1 under the present measure tho members returned would be (hose prominent in a faction. The country districts would not be -adequately represented. Ho thought that to have oply' two electorates would mako it impossible for a man of moderate means to contest an election. He thought : that a committee should be set up to so 9 what improvements could be mado in the : system. If an elective system could be ' made effective he was prepared to do all - 1 ' that he, could to effect the reform. ; THE HON. J. ANSTEY, — : i RETIRING ALLOWANCE ADVOCATED The Hon. .1. ANSTEY said that ho was ! i)f opinion that some measure, of reform was necessary, but he would rather see :he Council abolished than reformed as- : proposad in the Bill. The Council had : been taken to task regarding its attitudo in the second ballot measure. He had • thought that the Second Ballot Bill was • a mistake, but ho had not interfered with . its passage, because it had dealt entirely ; with the constitution of "another place." In the Bill had been one clause which had interfered with the liberties of tho ! people—the gag clause—and the Council had, very properlv. thrown it out. He ' said that accepting the Bill would be ' going blindly into a tremendous constitutional change of a Council with which not a single fault of any moment could bo found. Tho Hon. Mr. Paul, in his speech, had made some quotations from an anonymous author. Ono who quoted an anonymous person accepted the anonymous . one's statements to some extent. . Tho writer whom Mr. Paul had-quoted bid referred to / the Council as containing members who were unfit.. Such an ibservation was "scurrilous abuse." Mr. Vnstey thought that members of tho Chamber should be voted a retiring allowance, and be permitted to retain all :he honours pertaining to members of the Council or to members of the other Chamber. Men well on in years would then retire carrying with them their honours, ind the way would thereby bo made for younger men. THE TASMANIAN SYSTEM, SOME CABLEGRAMS. The Tasmanian system of electing a Second Chamber, Mr. Anstey declared, was not democratic. Tho Leader of the Council, in. quoting the telegram from Tasmania, had not done full justice to the Council. The Hon. Mr. Bell: Oh, nonsense! The Hon. Mr. Anstey said that he would quote a telegram and other matter which had been laid on the table. The first was an excerpt from an interview with Sir Arthur Guinness, and ran as follows: "Sir A. Guinness paid a recent visit to Tasmania, while a general election was in progress, and had an opportunity of hearing expressions of local opinion on the system of voting by group electorates which obtains in that Stale. Under tho Hare-Clarke system, as it is called, each elector votes for a number of candidates, numbering them in order of preference. Sir A. Guinness found that the system in operation gave rise to a good deal of dissatisfaction. It was held that it did not bring about tho results of proportional voting. At the lata elections a much larger number of Liberal votes were cast than the number given to Labour, but tho parties got about equal representation. This result was duo to tho fact that the Liberals had many more cindidates in the field than Labour. It is probable, Sir A. Guinness considers, that a proposal will fce made in Tasmania to abandon the system of group electorates and revert to angle electorates." The following telegram had been sent to Tasmania:— "Wellington, July G, 1912. "The Hon. the Premier of Tasmania, "Holiart". "Kindly cable if proposed amendments electoral low are to alter proportional representation system now in force, and if so, nature of alteration in brief. Pleased -to Teceive copy of Bill when Available. (Sgd.) "G. W. RUSSELL, - , "(or Prime Minister." The following telegram had been received from the. Premier of Tasmania in reply :—- • :'fteiefrjjyr. ibix.. i«l?£iani .iiuU,

3 alterations will not affect proportional representation. Main proposal is to halve present electorates, but public opinion very divided as to advisableness. General opinion system should allow odd number of members each constituency." The following was a memorandum from Mr. I'. W. Mansfield, Chief Electoral t Officer of New Zealand:—"With reference to tho attached clippings, the information ' contained in the llobarr. cablegram of \ 2nd inst. apparently confirms the opinion .' of Sir A. Guinness that tho system of l proportional representation in Tasmania is i not altogether satisfactory, and that some ' change in tho law is contemplated. As West Australia, Queensland, and Victoria have ■ adopted preferential voting with single electorates it may be that the Tasmanian Government is proposing to adopt this system also. In view of the movement in Wellington to urge proportional representation versus preferential system, ho would suggest cabling to Tasmania for information re tho proposed alterations." Mr. Austey claimed that all this showed that the Tasmanian system was not working satisfactorily. Mr. 801 l interjected that Mr. Anstey had said that the leader of the Council had misrepresented tho telegram. Mr. Anstey: I said that you quoted only a part of it. If ask members ot ilie Council whether the impression gained from the quotation of the leader of the Council is the same as that entertained after hearing tho whole quotation. Several members: No. Tho Hon. Mr. Bell: What! The members: No. THE.HON. W. D, H. BAILLIE. WILL VOTE FOR SECOND READING. The Hon. W. 1)1 H. Baillie said that' he would vote for tho second Tcading of the Bill, but that he was in favour of » system by which the Lower Chamber should choose the Councillors from men nominated by tho people. THE HON. J. B, CALLAN. BILL RESPONDS TO PUBLIC DEMAND. ' Tho Hon. J. B. CALLAN declared that he would vote against the amendment moved by the Hon. Mr. Ttigg (that the Bill should be read a second time six months hence), and would vote in favour of the second reading of the Bill. The nominative system was repugnant to the general public. The Hon. Geo. Jones: No. Tho Hon. Mr. Callan: The demand mado by tho public seems to me to be this: that tho members of this council ought to be elected by the people, and be responsible to the people, and this Bill is in response to that demand. The Hon. H. D. Bell: Hear, hear. The Hon. Mr. Callan: That demand is general, and I don't see how wo can avoid it. If wo don't amend the Council, the demand for its abolition will be so strong that it will bo carried, and we should avoid that. THE HON. C. M. LUKE. \ _ REMODEL THE COUNCIL. The Hon. C. M. LUKE remarked that he wished that ho could feel as easy about the non-necessity for a change in the constitution of the Council as some members of the Chamber professed to. Ever since he had been in the country— about 40 years—there had been a demand for reform in the constitution of the Chamber. Thero would be no settlement of this question until tho Lower House was elected on a system of proportional representation. When speaking on tho Council's action regarding the Libel Bill, he said that tho country was disturbed at the time by the publication of one.of the filthiest pamphlets ever circulated in tho British Empire. The Bill aimed to avoid a repetition of that kind of pamphlet, and to prevent that kind of libel which was common and which might have become common in this country. Ho believed that the constitution cf tho Chamber must go; it must be reconstructed, remodelled. Ho would advocate say ten seats for the North Island, but he could not see why tho South Island, with its smaller population, should have the same representation. To be consistent the Government ought at once to introduce a Proportional Representation Bill for the other House. THE HON. J. BARR'S OPINIONS. THE BILL "CRUDE." The Hon. J. BARR.said that an alteration such an that proposed should only bo made after mature consideration. The present Bill was far from one of the best which had ever been before the Council. Ho believed that there should bo two Chambers, and tho question was as ro their constitution. He would havo no hesitation whatever in recording his vote, in favour of the elective principle, which meant either voting in favour of the second reading or in favour of sending the Bill before some committee. The Bill at present was very crude. THE HON. C. H. MILLS. "GREAT AND GLORIOUS 'INSTITUTION." The Hon. C. H. MILLS said that the Council was part of a great and glorious institution, and that nothing in the way of change should be done hurriedly. Every care and consideration, and even veneration, ought to bo given to the old institution. Aa to the machinery of the Bill, no man who was not well known would be able to gain a seat for the large electorates proposed. A change was comjng over the electors. Nowadays the working man, whose body might be tired, but whose brain was not. spent portion of his evenings in reading literature which wa* too heavy for the business man who had been doing brain work all day. Therefore, the working man was becoming the more thoughtful of the two, and, so, the working clas3 was naturally demanding more adequate representation. He did not think that the present system was practicable. Two Chambers were imperative. He w.a.s not against reform, but the Bill needed much alteration. He would vote for tho second reading of the Bill in the hope that the measure would go before a committee and there be improved. Ho remarked that, in the past, important legislation had time after time been sent to tho Council in the dying hours of the session. That was unfair. A member: It will not be done this session. Mr. Mills: I hope not. At 9.30 p.m. the Hon. J. D. Ormond moved the adjournment of the debate till this afternoon. Fifteen Thames fishermen have petitioned Parliament to amend Section 17 of the Sea Fisheries Act. which provides a i penalty for the taking of oysters. Tho petition states that the clause is too dra:-- [ tic, os under its provisions a fisherman who is merely suspected of'having transgressed the law may have his boats and fishing gear confiscated. It is contended that the discretionary power vested in the 1 ranger is too wide, and tho petitioners sug- . gesfc to-nt proceedings for a blench of this law should be by information and summons, io that each case could bo decided , b y & bjipip.diiy;'- magjstra^,