THE SECOND CHAMBER.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1527, 24 August 1912, Page 6

THE SECOND CHAMBER.

HOW SHALL IT BE CONSTITUTED? VIEWS Or THE HON. J. T. PAUL. The debate on the second reading of the legislative Council Elections Bill was continued. -.-. ' The. Hon. J. T. PAUL resumed the debate. He said that Sir Francis Dillon Bell, father of the present Leader, of the Council, had adversely criticised the principle of a nominated Council. Now, 50 rears later, the respected son of a respected sbe had moved to amend the Constitution.- Ho had heard it said that the Government was not sincere in its bringing down of this measure. Mr. Paul.said that he had more respect for the honourn}>le gentlcjian who led-the Council, aud for the Government of tho day, than to think likewise. And he did not think that in- these latter days a' Government would begin its , career by: bringing in a measure ' about which it was'not sinpere. Mr. Paul ventured.to predict that the people would never have confidence in the Government of their country while part of the Government ,was a nominee Chamber. ■Mr. Paul denied the .imputation that tho Bill .was conservative. There could be no fairer proposal than that of the two lai'ge electorates and proportional representation. It was the most'radical measure which had been proposed in this country regarding the Council. A Councillor: Radical without beings democratic! , - ITr. Paul: Now, what does the honourable ~meniher know about democracy when; ho stands' in this Council for a nominative system ? There had been varions attempts - to' reform the Council, but the present Bill was the fullest attempt ■to givb the people of tho country the full representation in tho Parliament which tho people ought to have. Yet some people said that the Bill was undemocratic. Ho regretted that the Hon. Oliver Samuel, in- his speech on Thursday, had shown such an'absence of democratic tendencies.' .Mr. Paul said that some of his honourable friends were frightened of theLabour party—frightened that the Labour party would get an unfair representation in' tho Chamber. ■ The Labour party would, as a matter of fact, be represented only in proportion to the number of votes which tho Labour party received at the pojls. That was only fair. (Hoar, hoar.) None of. the large daily papers upheld tho present constitution of tho Council. - Tho Hon. Geo. Jones: Tho large dailies have opposed every reform. Tho Hon. Mr. Paul: Well, they-may be light for once. One of the most prominent issues at the last general election, and one of the most popular subjects, was tho proposal that tho Chamber.shonld be reformed. He had said before that he would vote for the abolition if the Upper Chamber, if the Lower House, were, truly ropresentativer-if it were elected on the system of proportional representation... The Lower Chamber, .-»; a matter of fact, was representative of a majority, not of tho whole country. If this Bill was passed, proportional representation could be forced on the other House. Tho elective system of government was Hie only one which would stand to-day.- "How many measures," he queried, "have bsen thrown out in ten years?" A voice: We threw out the referendum. Another member:■ How many measures wns it necessnrv to throw out?Mr. Paul: Well. T know one or two. A member: They havo all been accepted.' Mr. Paul: The second ballot, for instance, has been accepted. If we had thrown out that measure it would have rr-r'mimVd to Hie credit of |!ie Council. The Hon. Mr. Paul went on to say: "I boliove. that the Bill quite fulfils all the fp'ts from a democratic point of view. If the Govornmcnt continues- to live up to the standard of this Bill—that is, the standard oh the interests of the people— they mil prove to be <hn most advanced Government this conntry has ever seen. I hope they will. I believe (hat this Bill h so democratic, and ?o fair to all classes of the. community, thnt I pnt it on that Mzh plane." If there came an elective Council, .£2OO a yeaT would be an inadequate honorarium—.£2oo per year would make thp. Council a preserve for tho rich man. He did not think that thi3 country desired that the people who served it should' bo paid nn inadequate salary. The Ron. H. D. Boll: Fenr, hear. As to whether or not the proposed tcfovm was-wiiitod by the people, Mr. Panl Faid thnt the Government put it hfah in their platform, nml tlie' Government won nr the polls: : . . . ; A voice: Debatable! Mr. Paul: T rJnre=.iT it i.» rWmtoble. ' The tfoicc: All a I rick! Mr."Paul sairJ (hat it would be far.il to Teicci th». htuscd», J»rjip i n^

ferests of the country that this Bill would pass—in the words of Lincoln, that "this motion, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom, and that government of the people, by the people, and for tho people shall not perish from the earth." SIR W. J. STEWARD. WILL VOTE FOR SECOND READING. Sir W. J. STEWARD said that if they were going to make this change, why not make it respecting both Chambers? And if the Upper Chamber became the more representative, why deprive it of the right to act in financial matters? Ho-warned-; the leader of the Chamber that if this Bill was carried—and he was going to vote for the second rending of the Bill— the Government was going to have a great deal to do, and that there would be an immediate agitation for the application of the system to the other House. The Hon. H. D. Bell: Hear, hear. The Government, continued Sir W. J. Steward, had done well to consider this question, but he did not think that they had considered it sufficiently; extensive amendments were necessary. He wns propared to give the matter every possible consideration, though he would be sorry to see tho Bill pass as at present. HON. C. LOUISSON'S VIEWS. BILL WORTHY OF BETTER TREATMENT. ■ The Hon. C. LOUISSON said that this was one of the most important proposals that had ever been brought bei'oro tho Council for a very long time, and ho thought that it was worthy of better treatment than the amendment moved by the 'Hon. J. Rigg proposed. The main question was whether or not they should have the elective system as against tho nominative system. There was a strong public feeling in. favour of the nominative system giving way to the elective system. If an opinion of that kind had been bo strongly, expressed, it wns the Chamber's dury fo give way to it. With regard to the past, there was no doubt that this Chamber had exercised a wonderfully beneficial effect on the legislation of this country. Some of the finest and brightest men of the land had been members of tho Council. Of late, he was sorry to say, the Chamber hnd been subjected to a preat deal of abuse from those who probably did not understand,the kind of work which was done in the Council or the description of the men who were doing it. It was rather unfortunate that a certain amount of that abuse had come from members of "another place," from politician", or would-be of various kinds. It wa* a question whether the Council should not welcome the proposed change. It was unpleasant that Councillor* should h? there'doing their best for the country, and be subjected to this abuse. Therefore, it wag cr question whether tho members of the Council should not follow the .Tapanese custom. 'A member: Hari-kari! Mr. Louis?on: Yes; perform the operation of hari-kari. Mr. Lonis'on said thnf. although he thought that the time had arrived for the inauguration of the elective system in the Unper Chamber, he could not agree with the mode in which the .operation was to be performed. The machinery of the Bill was anything but perfect. He did not like the idea of the two large electorates. "As I sneak so seldom in this Chamber," concluded Mr. Louipson, "I hope/that next time I speak I shall have the attention of the 'honourable the leader of the Council, whose friends have been chisterine round him like flics round a honev not." The Hon. H. D. Bell I There is a reason for it. HON. R. A. LOUGHNAN. STANDING AGAINST THE WORLD. The Hon. E. A. Loughnan said that in the event of a deadlock between two elective bodies the only solution would be civil war. The Council had been many times, from the plutform and in the press, indicted in vitriolic language, but not a tittle of evidence had been advanced in support of the assertions. "I stand before the world," he said, "and I throw back that criticism in the only constitutional manner which is given to me—that of voting against this BUI." As to the contentions that this was a democratic Bill, he said tho proposal was "democracy gone mad." "As ft democrat," he continued, "I bash this thing in tho face." He approved of tho system of proportional representation.

HON. J. E. JENKINSON. SOME SLIGHT REFORM NEEDED. The Hon. J. E. JENKINSON opened his address by praising tho speech of the Hon. J. T. Paul, which he said was one involving an enormous amount of research. He remarked that there seemed to be an unholy compact between a leader of one party (tho Hon. J. T. Paul) nnd the gentleman who had introduced the Bill. The Hon. H. D. Bell: There was no compact. Mr. Jenkinson said that the Council were pretty well all agreed that some slight reform was necessary. It was open to doubt as to whether the present Government had the country behind it, and so he favoured the course suggested in the amendment moved by the Hon. J. Rigg— that of hanging up the Bill for six moufhs. He declared that there was no proof that the seven-years' term idea had been a failure. The ultimate result of this Bill would be to do away with "another place." The Hon.. 0. Samuel: If it had that effect we might reconsider it. Mr. Jonkinson said that the two chief functions of the Legislative Council were that it should be an advisory body (the most important function), and that, it should check hasty legislation. There was a very grave danger that men not suited to sit in any Legislature would get into the Chamber under the elective system, and the Council , might be formed of member- of one party only. With a constitution such a' that proposed, a body holding the tenets of the ifled Federation ;>f Labour could fill the Council. He did not think that the Government would hope to see such a state of affairs as that. ; At 11 p.m. the Hon. W. W. M'Cardle moved the adjournment. The Council will resume at 2.30 p.m. on Tuesday.