COUNCIL REFORM BILL

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1525, 22 August 1912, Page 6

COUNCIL REFORM BILL

■ ; ;:v SECOND READING DEBATE. : >. ;,:dPEECiI "BY THE HON. H. D. BELL. Vv :' The\l[on. H.: :-D. BELL moved the „ '^secondα-eadirig of tho Legislative Council' ■; ••■.■ Reform"Bill.:'-:'At tho outset Mr. Bell . : v traversed-the.constitutional change which • is.proposed&y: the Bill. That change he defined', as .being. r from 'selection of the "•,';■.• \ S<icond_ Chamber for .a term of years by ; . .;i.'-successive•Governments,' to election of ■'•>:- that. Chamber.- ! for ai.term of years by ■.-..■. :■ direct* vote -of t'ho people at the polls. If v' the •-principle .of /that constitutional '.-,..; change were, approved, .all else was defini- • \; ; rionof the method :by, which that change •■;■'■,'.. should, be effected. '■ On that high level ■.-I. '-hetrusted the debate would be conducted. '■■■■: [ ' On-'behalf of '•the'.lGovernment he invited •;-■:;■:.the thoughtful-consideration of lnem- ■„-.■■■ liers'.oi' that.constitutional change. It ~;/' was true that the method and its details To- ivere proper subject matter for the debate, ::•■>. tout.not, lie..submitted,,as ii factor of the ; ; ■ .> ..' : vote of any member on'ihe second reading. 'c, : ...The Principle of Election., , '.; :vOil. Ihe principle of'election against -.-.nomination, and not on the method,-the ■'!••■;• --Government, at this stage, sought tho vote '■;. of .the Council. Mr. Kellproceeded to -.■submit first a brief summary of the ef■/forts to vary tho constitution, following ■ it by a concise explanation of the principles'and details of the .present Bill, and finally he presented tho reasons which •. V, had.led the Government .to'introduce the . . ■ . Bill. Consistently ■ ■ through the past ■ •■twenty-one yenra, he said,', the party now. . . led--..by. Mr. Massey. had been .. ;■•_. in favour of an Elective Council.' .'■■ ; At'the last elections" the change v.-as ad- ■■. ■ /-ocated by men of all parties, and :t was 7:0110 of tho'principal planks of tlie platform of tlie-Keform party. , .After e1ab0r- ..:..". nting th.e position the Ward Government . ■•• had adoptwl, Mr. liell said it was com- ■ ' ..•.ni'oii practice to say that tho present Gov- ••• , Ki'liment was the successor, of, and was '111- . ; bued with, tho ambitions of the Govern- ..■••■ nients -.before IK/1. (Mr. Snuuicl. Ab- :■': flurd!) He.cpiild hot admit this, but it :..'. .was,tho.Administrations some called Con- ' , servative which proposed reform, and the r'Liberals who opposed'it. The "Conscrva- .-.' tives'.' were for election by tho people,' nud the-Liberals for , patronage. i!i?plyim* 'to an iiitcrjcctian, Mr. Bell said it .; .."was the privilege of the Council, once, ;•..".' Bfall events, to consider a measure pro-•-,''-posed; .for .its own reform. Keject it, . . and the people's voice would spenlt. He ■ V had introduced the measure'because it - was( their privilege- and right to 0011- : iider it .first. That process, however, could not be, continued. If the Council ■ -said the Bill should R« to (h^House first, • --.. they 'denied ■ their ■ own privilcgi , . If, on this occasion, the Council would not '• ■ accept reform, then it w«s.'iieeejs.s(ir,v that the voice of the people should be taken. -.',■■ Councillors explained that (hey had no ■'dcfirc that the course, should be other than adopted... .; " ,Froiri Patronage to the People's Voice. : "Continuing. Mr.'-llcll said the "proposal ' • pas simply that the constitution of the Council should be changed from patron- ""• r.-'t , of the ;"Ministry of the dav w the voice of the people. Mr. Bell emoted ■ • from a speech made by the Hon. .T. itigg ■ in 1893, in which the latter said the seven-year system was unsatisfactory, and approved a term of four years. Mr. liigg also said that members should bo put in for the purpose of passing the r-olicy measures of the Ciovernment, which appointed Ihcm. and concluded by giving it '■■ . ' ns his opinion that tho proper Method ' ' nf reforming the Council was to abolish ■■'■ it altogether. Proportional Representation. Discussing the proportional ■fjprefeat-i.. ' (jou. w'ttim. Mi. Hell eaid he diA-Jiot

think it was-denied that the system of election by a majority could not possibly result in true representation in Parliament of the whole people. Proportional representation had gradually become.accepted as a scientific basis of reform, and every test applied had served to demonstrate its efficacy. It had been adopted iu Belgium and Sweden, and more recently in South Africa and Tasmania. There were over 200. methods in existence, but the method scheduled in the present Act was that set forth by Lord Conrtcnay in his Bill of 1910, which was approved by" tho Select Committee of the House of Lords. Tho system was demonstrably sound, apart from the particular method which might be adopted for its application. The methods were simplicity itself. Voices: "Simple as falling off a l»g!" "We'll leave it to our children!" Mr. Bell, replying to tho interjections, said he was endeavouring to explain the matter seriously. This was not a Licensing- Bill—(laughter)—and if the interjections meant that tho Bill was going to be rejected without deliberation, he r.eed hardly proceed. At all events, such interjection did not tend to add to the dignity of the Council or tho brevity of his address. Tnul'ballots had already shown a very small number of spoiled papers, and in Tasmania in 130!) the number of spoiled papers under tho proportional system was only 2.8G per cent., as against 4.18. for the Federal Senate and 3.M for the Federal House in the same colony in 1908. The English Commission which reported on the system, said that although tho description, was. claborato tho proc«s was in inct sufficiently simple to be undertaken with safety by the usual staff of a'returning officer, with tho.assistance of two professional calculators to guarantee' the accuracy, of the easy, sums involved. It was astonishing how accurately the actual • proportion ;of seats obtained had corresponded to the mathematical proportion which should be gained where the experiment had been trjeil, and Mr. Bell quoted figures from Belgium, Finland, and' Tasmania to "prove this.. . ' ' . ,' . . The Proposed Constituencies. The constituencies proposed in the Bill were, to his mftul, ideal for tho purpose of-proportional representation,' They wero geographically distinct and separate, and throughout the short history of New Zea.land .'the distinction .had been as wellmarked in politics ns by nature. The difference in the present population was not so marked as to make equality of'representation from each' constituency unjust. The members fo.r each electorate must bo divisible by two, if half of the members wero to go out at each general election. He thought tho difference in population approximated more nearly to the ratio oi 23 to 19 than to tho ratio of 22 to 18, which had been suggested to him as an objection. If the ratio was 23 to 19, then, if their numbers wero to be JO, it was not unreasonable, that tho number from each should be 20, even dealing with the matter on the population basis alone. As to tho size of the electorates, the principal object was to defeat the possibility o£ a canvass or influence. The larger the electorates the more even became the chances of rich, and poor. The Government preferred the limitation to two electorates, but did not necessarily insist on them. If, in Committee, the; Council found it advisable to subdivide each island' into several electorates, cDterminns with the aggregah> of electoral divisions of tho House (for that was essential), the Government would accept the alteration if a majority of tho Council so decided. The People's Vote Only.

In conclusion, Mr. Bell said that in the mind of the Government election meant only one .thing—election by the direct vote of the people. If the Council .accepted the principle it might, still happen that the Bill might bo defeated in Committee. Ho was prepared to accept reasonable amendments, but on one point the Government would accept no amendment —it would accept nothing in the, shape of a secondary election. He was contesting nomination. Nomination for life ivas part an'd gone, and, lite tho women's franchise, a step that cannot bo retraced. lie could not sea how any free man or woman could hesitate to deliver judgment on tho present matter. They would no doubt say, and lie would not deny, that independence had been maintained by members of the Council in the past, but that merely proved that they had resisted a pressure and influence, obviously exerting over, if not exercised. No man could assert that under such a. system as at present it was not possible to sap and destroy independence. What answer wns it to say that the men. already ehoson had resisted pressure, or that pressure, so far, had never been exerted? Members sat under the shade of the upas tree immune. Should they, therefore, keep that tree standing and invite others constitutionally liable to be affected, to join them there? Hβ was there to challenge the system, not members' resistance of the system. He had not held out his haiad for power, and it might be that tho Bill would bo defeated in the' Chamber. It it was, then surely, unless the Government were false to their pledges, they must sond it up from the other Chamber and submit it to the people. It was pait oi tho Government's policy to discard patTonage. They did not want what their predecessors wanted, but desired to work for the benefit of tho whole, community. The Government wa-s in earnest, and must be defeated at tho polls or this reform would be put through. What they asked was for tho advancement of the po\?er and prestige of the Council, and that it should represent the people who elected it. They (tho Council) would then linvc even greater authority in declaring the mind of tho country than the House. This Bill was for the dignity and advancement, of the Chamber, and it was, he honestly believed, for the benefit of the country.' At 5 p.m. the debate was adjourned, on tho motion of the Hon. S. T. George, ■ until this afternoon. The Council will sit at nights durin» tho debato on tho Bill.