THE DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1484, 5 July 1912, Page 6

THE DEBATE.

MR. J. C. THOMSON. FIEST REFORM NECESSARY. The debate oe the Address-in-Reply and She no-confidence motion that an auiendEnent be appended thereto, was resumed at 4.30 p.m. Mr. J. C. Thomson (Wallace) spoke on the land question, mainly about land monopoly, which he thought a very grave I'vil in this or any other country. The Opposition, studiously refrained from milking reference to the larjje landowners when urging a closer settlement policy, preferring to urge that tho Native race should bo dispossessed. ' Mr. Conies: What have you done? Mr. Thomson accused the Opposition of having persistently held np all land legislation, and made it increasingly difficult to pass reforming Bills through. An hon. member: What about your majority? ' Mr. Thom;nn did not reply to tho interjection. The Opposition, it had been faid were 38 strong, ar.d they tjpeeted to get thi'M! members inoro from some other part of tho Hoiim. And he had not forU'oltcn the expressions used in tho Chamber in IVbriiary last, when il was said tluifc cpTtiin .membciß Jiad ~br.o.kenjtheir r ,.,

pledges, although the samo honourable gentleman said they had not broken their pledges, as circumstances had altered, and they, had reviewed their position. Yet tho Opposition, 38 strong, were hoping and expecting that certain houourablo gentlemen who stood before their electors pledged to support the' Liberal party were going to break their pledges. Ho accused the Opposition of having opposed all manner of reforms, citing Mr. Massey and Mr. Herdman as having opposed tho >Sta(« cheap money schemes, 110 deplored tho present party system, which, ho said, was the cause of all tho evils under which the country suffered. The troublo about the country was that the people were not well up in party politics. Mr. Massoy: I wish they were., Mr. Thomson went on to say that important. questions .should not-bo party questions.- Why should not all questions be above party? Why should not a Ministry bo elected to conduct tho affairs of this country? . The Leader of tho Opposition said ho was the Leader of tho Reform Party, but the greatest reform that.could be instituted would be a reform in the system of government.. Mr. Massey believed himself to be in sight of the promised land, and he wanted to enjoy all tho be-nefits of office. He was not prepared to place the interests of the couutry before the interesfs- of him. self and. his party. He (Mr. Thomson) was, on the other hand, prepared to vote ?or a measure of that , nature. He'went on to discuss "purity" nml kindred topics. Hf. quoted from a Nelson newspaper to show that Mr. Mas?ey had had an interview with Mr. Atmore (before Mr. Atmoro joined tho Government party) as to what Mr. Mosrey would be willing to do as Prime Minister in regard to works required in Nelson. Was this the sort of thing to expect from a party professing to stand for purity? Mr. Massey: What did yon say to mo yourself?

Mr. Thomson, accused .the Opposition of change of front in their attitude towards land legislation and borrowing. Tho Trader of tho Opposition had said that the country was eoiu? to tho dogs through excessive borrowing, but now lie said thai borrowing must, bo continued at a reasonable rate. They were not consistent in their opnosition to extravagant expenditure. He went on to say that he did Jiot approve of some of the wasteful exiwmlihire Hint, had been indulged in by the Government, particularly in railway duplications and in' expensive public hiuldinre. But how the Lender of the Opposition Dropo?cd to reduce borrowing reduce taxation, and yet carry out a vi». nrons public works nolicv passed his (Mr. Thomson'*) comprehension. Generally, he defended the policy of the' Government n« set forth in Hie , ( fJqyer;iipT's.,. Speech. There was a /r'rowin? foeling-in the country, he said, (luit this young Government should liavo a trial.

MR. J. H. BRADNEY. THE OLD AGE PENSION SCHEME. When tho House resumed, Mr, J. H. BRADNEY (Auckland West) explained that as a new member he had no desire to take part in the debate, but ho Imd been compelled to spenk in contravention of the distortion and tho misrepresentation of certain remarks of his with regard to old age pensions in order to make the Lender of tho Opposition responsible for his opinion.?. Ho wished to inak-o it perfectly clear-that he was in no way opposed to humanitarian measures which had for their purpose tho uplifting of the unfortunate in tho battle of life. His comments on tho pensions scheme were duo to his opinion that tho Government wns usurping tho functions of a Charitable Aid Board. Ho was not opposed to the principle, but to tho administration of the system; the Opposition did not want to abolish the system, but to amend the Act. Amendments had now been mado to tho Act by which penS ?°S co lm. 1 ' ol(1 property'to the valuo ot ,USO. Ihis was certainly an improvement, but the administration of tho Act was such that decent people were apt to conceal their poverty rather than apply ; lor tho pension. He objected to tho metliod ot paying these pensions. Why should oiil people, tottering on tho verge, of the grave, bo required to toko their turn at a counter to receive their pensions, sometimes after travelling a long distance at spine expense. Why could not tho pensions be sent by Treasury Cheques. What lie would hko to see was a scheme of national aunmties. PERSONAL EXPLANATIONS.

WHAT THE "WAIROA BELL" SAID The Hon. G. W. BUBSELL made a personal explanation, reiterating his charges by quoting from the "Wairoa

Mr. W. V MASSEY (Leader of tho Opposition) aUo rose to inafco a personal explanation arising out of wliat Mr. Ikssell had said. 'The report in the paper \u si .T J ;. ! " uI , t,le v ? por ''longed to -Mi. £taltworthy, formerly a member of the■ Government party. What he had raid in fact ac the meeting reported bv tuo paper was that ho favoured a scheme ot national pensions which could be claimed as a right. MR. W. A. VEITCH. WILL VOTE WITH THE GOVERN MENT. •Mr. W.,A .VEITCH (Wanganui) said no was m favour of some measure of oca government reform. There was certainly need for it in the multiplicity of small local governing bodies in New Zealand. Every small local body had its cheap engineer, and cheap oiurinecrinhad cost this country more than its public eleM. Ho was not prepared to say that there was not room for improvement in tho old ago pension scheme, but protoibly it represented tho Government's best cliort. Ho was not ready to say that tho Government was the best Government in the world, but Ire was not coins to condemn it for what it had done in the interests of .the psople of New Zealand. Ho insisted that the meeting of tho Liboral party nfter tlio short session was not a caucus, but a conference. He wanted his position to bo understood. He was not allied to tho Opposition party, nor was he nllied to the Government party, and if ho did record his vote with tho Opposition party he would break no pledge. He had reasons why he intended to vote with the Liberal party on this occasion, but however he voted he would break no pledge. He objected to the duty on boots, as it was cnoTged at per pair, and not ad valorem. It was heaviest on fho cheaper class of boots which workers usually purchased. He was prepared to support the proposal to establish a sjofcem of preferential voting, as being an improvement on the present vicious second ballot system. The result of preferential voting would be much t.lio same as tho second ballot, but it would be more convenient, and it would save n little mono) , . What he would favour would be u. system of proportional representation with a single tniiisi'errable vote.

Some Omissions. Thoro were proposals in the Governor's Spoech adopted as the party's policy a fp.ir weeks ago, anil thev were not in Hip Oovcrnor's Speech of this spsmoii. 11. was iinfortmiale that thew reform? had been omitted. If they ought to havo Ijppii iu. _tho. fecpi i.a l£to>«»

then (hey ought no!, U, have b«>o;i omitted Iroin the lecent Speech, 110 condemned tho pro-cut syMeiii »f palroiia"o ciorciScd by ihr (ioven.meu: in the maltins oi' appaiiilineiiU io the LegislativeCouncil. There m-tainly was need l'nr lviorm in the Chamber if it wn; l<> lie rctuincil, but he did nut think tin- Legislative Council was iireessarv. If the r«presentatives- of tho people could not conduct the country's affairs, theru was jiced for reform ill (he Lower Chamber nl«i. Ho whs a strong believer in the nationalisation of all industries capable of being monopolised, and he believed, too, that the prolits of usury now taken bv the banks should be secured bv the State. He did not believe in the proposal to establish light railway line?. The damage and wear and tear to rolling-sleek over such Hues would bo enormous. Rather, he thought, Kcjy Zealand had spout money badly in building narrow-gauge railway's instead of heavier, broad gaiigv railways, ns would have to be built sooner or later! Ho objected to the Ministers' oxercNhi',' the. power of veto over the decision of the Hail way Appeal Board.' There was urgent need for reform in (he administration of the railway service. He hoped that no economies would be effected at the expense of tho efficiency of the service. Mr. Vcitch admitted* that unwise methods liud been adopted by the men on strike- at Wailii, but remarked that industrial unrest would continue until some serious attempt was made to copo with tho problem of poverty. It was to bo hoped that the people would exorcise tho power that they had in Parliament, but if reform did not come by evolution it would come by revolution. "1 do not trouble much, ,, saiil Mr. Veilcli, "as to whether there- is. poinfr to be another election, and I don't think that wo should fear an election." Tie earnestlv loped that sueh nn arrangement would >e brought about tis would make on election unnecessary. If an election did conic members should first unite to pass a Proportional Representation Bill so tliat tho people might be enabled to return tho representatives whom they really -wished to elect. (Applause.) MR, H. ATMORE. MINISTERS PATTED ON THE HEAD. Mr. H. ATMOEE (Nelson) who was applauded as he rose to speak made a lengthy statement of which the substance was that members when they were addressing the House, should bo permitted to take np a commanding position. He also referred at length to the fact that a Conservative paper had criticised him for asking leave, during the Febriwry session, to speak from the bock of tho House so that he might not have to turn his back on members. Mr. Atnioro declared that ho could not understand tho feel- , ing of some members who had been criticised in tho press. Ho did not at nil mum having been described by one naper (is "ft fifth-rate young man." To buy the machinery and other things necessaiy to produco a paper might cost .£100,000,' but a paper could only express the opinions of a single man. Mr. Armore said that

ho would concede to Mr. Massey every conceivable virtue in private life, but ho considered that tho Leader of the Opposition was not competent to cany out tho duties of head of the Government in this country. The Picform party, said the member for Nelson, could not bo relied

upon to vigorously' prosecute land settlement. Ho eulogised the present Minister for Public Works and' went on to contend that a democratic Cabinet must of necessity contain men of divergent ideas. Only idiots agreed upon everything. If you had a body of men all holding tho samo ideas one man would, do as well as the lot of them. It was no reproach to tho Government that there were both leaseholders and freeholders in tho Ministry. If Mr. Massey had a political San(low, or if he Wfls the Sandow of Iho party, let him come to Nelson. He would receive n right royal welcome as a stranger and would be a stranger when the thin" was over. Overhearing a remark liv Mr" Rhodes that he (Mr. Atiuore) was' "Hio great I am," tho member for Nelson relorted that he could not even say that the member for Ellesmero was "the "rent li'V was." Mr. Atmnro continued to deal m minute detail with his own candidature at Nelson hind 'denied' that he had been, returned by Opposition votes. Ho praised the Minister for Defence (Mr Myers) and remarked that if the Prime Minister Imd a past, the Opposition also had a past. Mr. Ell's proposals in regard to transmitting fish by post should not bo ridiculed. Mr. Atmore snolce in a similarly commendatory way" about Messrs. Hanen, Colvin, and Laurenson. .Lhe Inst named he thanked for deciding to place a light on Tongue Point. The Hon. Mr. Russell had received a good deal of credit for his handling of tho Local Govcrnmelit Conference and had taken a commendable interest in the Department* under his charge. "1 don't know if I bavo missed any of the Ministers," continued Mr. Atmore, "and I don't ceo any chance o( such a progressive Cabinet coinin" from the other side of the House." What was called the political crisis was really a party crisis. Mr. Atmore urprd that all questions should be dealt with on non-party lines. When Mr. Atmoro resumed after the slipper adjournment there were, only 20 members in the House, and the Opposition benches wore almost, empty. A few additional members strolled in a.s Mr. Atmore continued his speech. Referring to an interview between Mr. Massey and himself at Nelson, Mr. .Atmore stated that tho Loader of the Opposition informed him on that occasion that ho would not make the no-conlidence motion a declaration for the freehold because the Labour members weTo leaseholders, and. he wished to get thoir votes. Mr. Massey: That is not so! Mr. Atmore: I say it is so! Mr. Mnssey: Well, it is my word against yours. Mr. Atmoro: Let it be my word against yours. Continuing, he denied that the meeting in March was a party caucus It was a conference, he said, at which threo distinct parties were represented—Liberal Labour, and Independent. Finally Mr Atmore appealed to members not to vote iu a party spirit, but in the interests of the country and of their electorates. (Applause.)

MR. J. PAYNE. PLEDGE-BREAKING DENIED. Mr. J. PAYNE (Grey T.ynn) spoke on the subject, of industrial unrest in New Zealand and in other countries. Ho remarked that he had already introduced a. number of Bills designed to improve the lot- of the worktrs, and that no intended to introduce others. f n, not cnl '° what Jennie ot th«jp measures, because afterwards ho could go out in o the country and tell the workers that if they desired escape from tho troubles of life they must send representatives to Parliament who would pledge themselves to support these Bills. Mr.. Payne outlined the purpose which some of his Bills we.ro intended to soryo. Ho claimed that his Arbitration Amendment Bill had' it been law would have prevented the Wailii strike Iho Speaker drew tho lion, member's attention to the fact fhat he was not entitled in that debate to discuss any Bill which appeared on the Order Paper Mr. Payne continued that he was out on a Labour campaign. Anyone who moved nut of the rut must expect to be opposed.

Hon. Mr. Laiirenson: Hear, hear! Mr Payne paid that ho would epeak on tho subject of pledge-breaking that, night, with very great satisfaction. He quoted a newspaper report of his meeting on tho iiight before tlio secc%d ballot aa showing that lie had stated Hint lie would not support either Sir Joseph Ward or Mr. Massey, but would aim at creating a Labour party. Re quoted another report (of an Opposition committee meeting) in which reasons for supporting Mr. Payno were set out. There was no mention, in this report, said the member for Grey Lynn, of n no-eonfidence motion. Opposition members who had accused him during the previous session of pledgebreaking had accused him, knowingly, of J l "!'' was contrary to fnct. He h'opod that The Dominion and other Conservative and Independeit newspapers throughout the country would now remedy the wrong they hod done in speaking of pledge-breakers "when such was not Hie rasf." Mr. l'nvnc denied (hat Sir Joseph Ward had broken any pledge in connection Willi his promise to resign. "I believe, [lint when v.-n go to the country ngmn, be oonl.imm], "wo .«hnl] find Mint n ne.it revulsion of frelin!; li.ts =p| in " The Tlon. G. T.aurcnMin. Hear, lipar! Mr. I'ayne also pxprcs-od n holier |,h ; ,| Ihe party would tind that Sir Joseph Ward's services wcro too rnliinblo In l,c di>pen.-<vl wilh.

Mr. .1. ('. Thomson: Tlr.ir. hear! Mr. I'ayiie concluded by slnlinj lj K ,| h c jvpiild move Honrcii And o 3 rtli to n.Miil).

WASTE OF TIME. .MR. MASKKY AND Mil. MACKENZIE. llr. A. E. Clover (Auckland Control), at 11.11) p.m. moved the ndiimrnmfut of tin- debate. Mr. Ma-sey said that lip could not allow tlii! motion to go without protesting against tlu- waste of time thai, lisul taken place. They had come—eighty men—to do the count it's business. He luid'eomo to (he conclusion, sumo days previously, that, the Mjuner thi? debate omicluded the l)ctt,-i- il would be. J'robably before (ho ended the Hou-o would lx- sitting until two or throe o'clock in the morning, iiihl it was not right to adjourn so earlv at this stage. Ho had no feeling in the matter, ami personally did not. care whether I he divi-ion took place that night or a week hence, but lie i'elt that he would n-il bo iloins; his duty if ho did not proVst aenin-t (lie waste, of time that had taken place. The Prime Minister deprecated the remark-; of the Leader of the Opposition, ami said that he was sorry that Mr. Masspy had taken up the position thai, he hud. TTiin. memliors had taken advantage of the privilege, which undoubtedly was theirs, to spoal; in this very important (It-hate, but ho did no!; Iliink that there had bee.ii any waste of time. Re had ptatcd at the beginning of the session. Ihat he proposed to keep to reasonable hours, and had intended to see the Leader of the Opposition, and come to an arrangement on the matter. Members in goneTal were exceedingly "full of work," and—while, ho had no desire to prolong the debate on the Acldres<=-in-T{eply—con-sidering (hot the fate of (ho Government was at stake, and the prospects of the Opposition in advance—in their opinionmembers were surely entitled to express their opinions. Opposition members had not spoken much, but he took no exceptici to that. The motion to adjourn the debate until 2.30 P.m. to-day was carried on (he voices an drho House rc.-e at 11.11 p.m.