THE DEBATE.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1483, 4 July 1912, Page 6

THE DEBATE.

MR. E. fJEWMAN. A TIiB.VCiIANT CRITICISM. Mr. E. NEWMAN'(Pangitikci) dissented rroni tlie cuutciitioii! of the member for Wairau that it wasl; incumbent on Liberal members to, hpniologato every Act of administration bu the present Government. With tho roniark of Mr. M'Callum that tho Liberal party was under a cloud ho (Mr.- Nownurm) had every sympathy. He sympathised jilso with tho distressed condition <>f the educational institution of which Mr. M'Callum had spoken: No doubt:- tho improved' conditions wbScli wojild. follow a change of Govornuirtnt. won'il make it possible to placo the institution on a better footing. Tho whnlo speech of the member for AVoirau had been mnrkjeil by an attitudo of lukewarm support. : The speeches of the member for Napier were always marked by freshness and 'vigour. Tho statistics which he had presented on tho previous evening showed evidence of industrious research, but rell«?ted gravely on tho past administration of tho present Government. If tho hon. gentleman had been well acnuainte.d with tho state of affairs thai' obtained in tiie back-blocks of this country, ho would not have suggested taking tho diuty off pianos. Mr. Newman said that Jin thought it no part of tho duty of on Opposition to put forward a policy and in practice it was unwiso. Proposals put forward by tho Opposition had.been greedily pirated by tho party in power. As nn example he instanced tho proposal to 'reduce tho pension age for women' to CO years. Tho men: who now sat on. tho Opposition benches, whatever might have happened twenty years ago, were -as much in- favour of tho Land .for Settlements Act, and Advances to Workers, etc., as those who sat on the Treasury benches. Mr. Newman said that it had surprised him to seo tho Local Government Bill entrusted to tho Hun. Mr. Russell instead of to tho Hon. Mr. Macdonakl, who had had a large experience of local government affairs. Mr.. Russell was 'reported to have said re-c-.'iitly at New Brighton, that much road construction, had been done in tho Ncnh Island without contributions by those who had benefited. Tim actual position was that many of file roads had been constructed at tho rx'ieiisc of settlers themselves, under the I'ins to Local Bodies' Act. Where Government grants wem given, it was usually on a pound for pound or pound for two pound* basis. Tho Opposition did not object, to borrowing money, but they objected to the waste- that had taken placo in connection with the- borrowing i-f nienev. They objected to Guch'casc3 a-= I hut'of the Hull road and railway, where a work supposed to cost .6100,000 whially.i:ost,iSD39,MS»-

Mr. "Wilford: Worth it, too. Mr. Xewman: Then it took longer than over (o {jet out to Trcntlinni. Mr. Wilford: You must have walked. Wasteful Expenditure. Mr. Xewman also denounced wasteful expenditure on public buildings", instancing lite Dunedin railway station. The policy followed should be to spend what money was available in improving tho back-blocks before money was lavished on buildings in the cities. Mr. Myers: That is the policy of this Administration. Mr. Xewman: AVe have not had time to see what the policy of this Administration is, and no. are not likely (o havo lime. Tho Minister for Internal Affairs had concluded his speech on the previous evening by declaring that tho Liberal party was a great party, and had been led by such great men as Sir George Grev, Mr. Bnllaneo, and Mr. Scddon. Nothing would siirpriso (hose men more if they came to life, said Mr. Xewman, than to see who was leading the, party now, a gentleman who had spent many years on the opposite sido of tho House to the Liberal party.' Ho believed that tho Prime Minister still hankered for the other side of the House, "and I believe," added Mr. Xewman, "that we shall see him here." Mr. Xewman said that the Government had no claim to consideration, because it had retained office by nolitical manoeuvring. 'I'hov retained,, office because the late Prime Minister promised to resign, and gentlemen returned to support the Opposition party _ Mr. Smith: What do you wont now? "Vote as Soon as Possible." Mr. Xewman: Wo want to vo'o as soon as possible. , Mr. Eussell: You haven't got a maioiity,

'Mr. Massey: Try!. Mr. Xewman recounted the happenings of the short session, and remarked that larliameut was afterwards prorogued for three months. Tho Prime Minister: TJiis Government did not prorogue Parliament. Mr. Xewman: At all events, the Government put off meeting Parliament until the last possible moment. Continuing, he expressed gratitude for tho benefit which tho Postmaster-General proposed to conier on back-country settlers by giving them a ehangeof diet. Sonio laughter arose as Mr. Newman spoko of carrying "day-old" chickens by post, and "fresh when (bey started." "What their condition would bo when they got to the end of their journey," said the memlicr for liangitikei; "I refuse to contemplate." •The Government proposals to reduce the railway fares,of children and to confer better conditions on tho men in tho rail:\vay service, Mr. Xewman unreservedly commended. He also approved of the atlitude taken up by Mr. Myers in regard to. Defenco and the proposal to build light railways. Mr. K. M'Kerzie: No good at all! Mr. Xewman: If I had the hon. member on the Poxton tram, I would very soon show him 'that light lines are good.

Political Pensions. He was no(: in favour of pensions to ex-members of. the House. Tlu> only tiling i.i its favoui' was that it might prevent Governments making undesirable appointments to the. tipper House. He did not object to the men recently appointed to tlio Upper House, hut he'did not think tho Government should" have made the Appointments under the present circumstances. Ho also pointed out that for years a large area of the country in'tho North Island, as far as Hawera on the West Coast and as far as the Waimrnpsi, on the other coast, had for years been unrepresented in the Legislative Council. He complained of the action of the Government in regard to loans to local bodies, the old system being preferable, to the now. Ho "went on to draw attention to the fact that the Government had cut out of their policy everything; for tho Labour party. Mr. Payne: You'll have to support my Bills, Mr. Newman.

Mr. Newman: Ton wait, and you'll see what we'll do with your Bills. (Laughter.) Air. Newman made- a reference to the way in which the present Government got on to the benches, namely, by broken pledges and the promised resignation of the Prime, •Minister, and now, ho added, the present Prime Minister had pnimi-ed to resign. The Hon. Mr. Mackenzie: 1 have HOI offered to resign. , /,,,,, Mr. Newman (referring to Mr. Mackenzie's letter): The hon. gentleman has ■T»reed to place himself in-tho hands of h?s party to do what they think fit with him. (Laughter.) : in conclusion, Mr. Newman put in a plea for a stable Government that would legislate for the benefit of the country as" a whole. I '. When Mr. Newman resumed Ins sent there were Opposition cries of "Vote! vote 1 " There was n pause for about a minute, ■ and the Speaker was proceeding in put the .question, when tho Hon. Jr. ■Kaiian canio to the rescue. Apparontly "tho Opposition'were confident ot victory, and"desired a. division, biitlho Govern.•pieiifc were afraid to come to grips, and ST the debate went on.

THE HON. J. A, HANAN,

"\ CURTAIN CODE OP HONOUR." Tho Hon. J. A. HANAN (Minister for Justice) submitted that it had not been shown Unit tho new Ministry, had not been "iiilty of the violation ot any constitutional rule or principle. No authoritv had been offered to. show that the .Ministry were not holding their positions by virtue of constitutional precedent, the Leader of the Opposition had based his argument as to why the Government, should bo removed from ofhee on tho tact that mombers of the Cabinet were not a'Teed on everv political subject. Surely this was a flimsy ground. For instance,' there wcro members of tho British Cabinet who wero in favour of granting female franchise, and others who were strongly opposed to it. In the last Conservative Ministry, also, there was Mr. Rolleston, a leaseholder, who did not agree on tho' c|iicstion of tenure with other members. Ho argued, (00, that the Opposition as a. party were not agreed on this very question, citing Mr. li.-her and Dr. Newman as leaseholders. What was the policy of tho Liberal party? Opposition members: Hear, hear. What is it? Mr. Hainan: It is contained in tho Speech from tho Throne, and it is a progressive policy that appeals to tho masses as against tho classes. It had not been shown, ho said, that tho administrative acts of the now Ministry had not been straightforward. "We come now to the attempt that is being made," ho said, "to plot and manoeuvre to get men to desert the Liberal party and join tho Opposition. In other words, they aro nsked to deal a death-blow at the "Liberal party. They are invited to do a dishonourable act. They aro asked to betray mid play fairs to the people who rallied to the polls and supported them to do n particular work., What was that?—to keep the Opposition party out of power in this country." He mentioned the names of Messrs. Sidcy, Clark, and lieid, who bod been said by '.he Tory press to be probable deserters from die party. Ho urged that, it was an insult, to Mich moii to supposo that they would do any such thing. "We may disagree politically." he raid,' "but there is a certain code of honour." (Ironical "Hear, hears" from tho Opposition.) This country, he continued, was going to bo progressive and not reactionHT» TiS Opposition, vera ghvars saying

that they were in favour of land settle inent, but what kind i>f land settlement woidd they have had if the, Opposition had been in power? Mr. Ma-~*y: Ask the Prime .Minister about it. The Graduated Tax. Mr. Jlanan went on to reproach Mr. James Allen and fir. Xewman for being opposed In the graduated land tax. He quoted from newspaper reports of speeches to show that these members had said that they were not in favour of an increase in the"graduated laud lux. The Opposition had all sorts of vague proposals, but. thero was nothing specific to appeal to the great mass of the people, or to rouso enthusiasm. The Liberal Government had passed legislation ill the interests of Hie hona(iilo set Her and the worker, and had thereby incurred Hie distrust ami enmity of tho wealthy landowner and the weallhy man, who now .supported the Opposition." Mr. t'isher: Xor. all the weallhy men. Mr. Hnnnn: I don't say all the"weallhy nira. J say many of them, lie then proceeded to tax (he Opposition leaders with having opposed progressive Liberal measures. Mr. Massey: Who opposed it? Mr. Hanan: You opposed it. You opposed Hie cheap monev scheme. Mr. Massey: What did Mr. Mackcnzio do? ' The Prime Minister: Mr. Mackenzio is tpiite clear on that point. Mr. Hanan said that Mr. .Tames Allen had continually opposed progressive Icislation. Mr. Allen: Xo, Xo. The Prime Minister (Inughing): Own up. Jim. Mr. Hanan drew a parallel between the present Liberal party and the Opposition party when anew leader had to ha chosen. There were disappointed men in (he party, but whore were thev all now? They were sitting behind Sir. Massey now. Then Mr. Hanan noticed that Mr. James Allen was pointing at the Prime Minister, and he consulted his notes again. He suggested that tho wreloh-yl party system dominated politics in New Kealnod. What was' the whole-absorb-ing subject this session. It was undoubtedly a struggle for office between two sides of the House. ("Hear, hear," from both sides.) The whole thing centred in the division for office, no had a passage-at-arms with Mr. Fisher, alleging that he (Mr. Fisher) had once said that thero would he chaos if Mr. Massey was in office. Mr. Fisher: No (and to the Speaker): May T tell what I did say? T said, "Put Mr. Massey into office, and thero will bo chaos on the Liberal side of (he House," and one paper, the "Xew Zealand Times,'.' carcfullv' left out all tho words after "chaos." It was the only paper in Xew Zealand to do so. In conclusion, Mr. Hanan said that if his leader held tho same views as himself, be would put Mr. Massey and his party to the test, go to the eonntrv tomorrow, and let the people settle it." (Applause all round.)

FEARFUL OF THE PLUNGE. ANOTHER MINISTER. SPEAKS. Mr. HAXAN concluded his speech a fewminues after nine o'clock. The Opposition members sat still.' Tho question and the amendment were stated by tho Speaker, when the Hon. G. Laurcnson rose while tho Opposition benches laughed. Tho Minister criticised tho Opposition for asking the House to voto without explaining any reasons why members should vote for its amendment, ne proceeded to discuss at length the subject of industrial unrest, which, ho paid, was world-wide, and duo to the education of the pcoplo into the knowledge that formerly was available only to men of the universities. In tho face of this revolutionary condition, the Government was condemned 'for not slopinig the, strike in Waihi. Mr. Laurcnson quickly passed on to matters outside the immediate environs of tho principal issue, and discussed schemes for the reform 1 of the party system. As a moans for ending the struggle among seventy men to attain the offices held by tho remaining ten, ho suggested that the honorariums of members should be more nearly equalised to the salaries of Cabinet Ministers so that they would at all events bo able to pay their way and to mako provision for their.old age. A system of proportional representation , should also bo adopted. An effort should be made to conserve the dignity of the House, and to protect it from His degradation with which it was threatened if members made charges in vague generalities. At this stage the Houso adjourned for supper.

Empty Benches. When Mr. Laurenson resumed, tho Ministerial benches were, virtually empty, only the Prime Minister and Mr. Witty being in their places. There weiv thirty or so Oppositionists; in the House. Tho Minister proceeded to criticise Mr. Newman's remarks unon tho Advances Department, and said that instead of 10s. per cent, which the member for" Kangi-tiko-i stated as the cost of administration, the Department was being carried' on at a cost of only two ' shillings and tonpence per cent. As a Scotsman; Mr.,Newman was out of his proper sphere; it was painful to «•; a man of that nationality in the poisonous atniosrdiero of conservatism. "The nre=s is being steadily bought up bv the Opposition," said the Minister. Mr. Massey: No, no. Mr. Laurenson: Take Hawko's Eay. Dr. Poniare (Western Maori): The "New Zealand Times." (Laughter.) Attack on the Press, , Discussing "Party and Party Hacks," Mr. Laurenson said:—"There is no lower party hack in this country than the paper edited by a man called Eorlo in this town. Wo aro going to take everyone of these little creatures and make him sign his name to his articles." Mr. Payne: Hear. hear. Mr. Laurenson: They conspire behind the hedge at every independent strong man, and. the stronghold of every free peoplo now is the platform and not the press which can be purchased bv wealthv nieu. You publish a trading article and they say, "This is published' bv the Wellington Dominion." Then ,you find out the little creature, you find him behind his fence, and you find out frhat ho is. . . . What they have done in Australia, we have to do here. A man attacked in his public capacity must know who attacks him. If ho is a little creature and a sneak, ho will not liko to sign his name, and ho tackles you for asking him to sign his name. Yet Ma-. John Duthie savs: "This paper is not going to bo a party hack, but is going to act on clean line's ontsulo of party.' "But this paper attacks us in season and out of season as yet no other paper in New Zealand-has done. Tho only refuge for us is to get on tho platform and deal with all the statements made by the papers and made in back-blocks settlements by men who cannot be contradicted." lie then. roferred to a member of the. Opposition (Mr. Brodney), who he said had in tho most contemptuous terms referred to tho old ago pension. Mr. Mflssry: That's not fair. Mr. Laurenson took the Opposition to task for speaking about excessive borrowing and always voting for borrowing. They were always asking for new workslint the necessities but the luxuries of civilisation. He did not understand how Conservative newspapers could talk about excessive borrowing and extravagant expenditure. That Challenge. Referring to Mr. Fi>s]»>r he said that no one hi tho country took that honourable gentleman seriously.

Mr. .las. Allen": "What about that competition between you? (Laughter.) Mr. Fisher: You never accepted my challenge. (Laughter.) Mr. laurenson: You never sent mo a challenge at all. ■ Mr. Fisher: Did T not see you in vour oftice on the subject? Mr. Laurenson: You did not, and von never Fent mo a challenge at all. We laughed and treated it, as a joke. 1 asked my secretary if he had received any telegram or letter from Mr. Fisher, and he said no. 1 got no telegram, message, or letter, and am still waiting for the chab lenge. Mr. Fi'her: Did I not travel un in (he train wilb you to your own mooting. Mr. laurenson: Yrs. 1 thought von would tackle nn> nl the iiwling. and von sal as(|iiiclly as a new-born babe. (Laughter.) Waste and Corruption. The Minister expressed tho opinion that the work in connection nidi Hie erection of the new J.'arli.inirulary Buildings win .being, cM-rial ou in a. most JU'OW and

.surety-fiil manner. These exclamations against .-quanucring weto like tiioiecaarges or corruption in tiie public service. Cases were quoted of boys :ii>i>ointed to the Public Service above the heads of those wliu passed the entrance examinuliou, but when the facts were examined it was found that the boys were appointed in relation. About sixty per cent, of the candidates who passed were girls, and they were not wauled, and were passed by; the disqualifications by the medical examinations reduced the number of boys eligibly for appointment to forty per cent, of lhe total. Jle challenged Hie member far liangitikoi to resign, and contest tho sent with him. The present position was intolerable, and there must be an appeal to the country. Mr. Glover (Auckland Central): You can have it to-morrow, so far as, I am concerned.

The Minister continued that there was a universal desire lhat the new .Ministers should be, allowed to show whether they were men or not. Though 'hey were eager to do their best for the country, the Ministers wore told thev must go out of ollice. Mr. Massey and Divisions. The Leader of the Opposition replied to the charge thai he had .strenuously opposed the Land Settlement Act of ISM; He quoted Hansard to show that he did not vote at all on the second reading, and (here was no division on the third reading. He voted for the first Old Age Pensions Bill of IS9G, but the present Prime .Minister voted against it. The Prime Minister: I voted for that measure as often as you did. Mr. Massey added that the reason ho voted against the second Old Age Pensions Hill was that the then Treasurer proposed to finance the measure by reducing tho amount of the transfers from the Consolidated Fund io tho Public Works Vund, and possibly by reducing salaries. He opposed th.e Advances to Settlers Bill of IHM because his constituents had over and over again pledged him (o oppose borrowing. • The Prime-Minister: You voted for other loans at that time. Mr. .Massey: Only for one small loan of .£250.000, which was raised for a necessary purpose. When tho Bill was before the House he offered to support it if the moneys in the Post Office Savings Bank were used for advances. Another Anxious Moment. At ten minutes to eleven tho Speaker had read most of the formal resolution and amendment, and .Ministers were looking round anxiously for someone on either sido to rise and .speak. At almost the last moment tho member for llurunui, the Government: Whip, rose uncertainly, looked round carefully, and then said,

"Mr. Speaker." He was called, and the galleries were practically empty in a very few minutes. Tho debato had become a

•Vtoneu-all." Mr. G. W. I'OBBKS (Hi:nijini) accused the Opposition of being anxious to improve vho condition of the wealthy classes, and it would be a terrible thing in this young country if tho aim of • thu Government should be that. He licensed Mr. .Massey of having voted to give lands for settlement, tenants the right to require the freehold of their lands at the original value, one of the most immoral proposals ever nut before the House. It was a bribe to ge~t a few votes, and tho loss to the State, involved was about one million pounds. Was it fair that the holders of short leases should get land from the State that was worth XlO per aero for about M or £5 poi' aero? l'ho Government in their Lands for Settlement policy Vere opposed by all the representatives of wealth, who distorted everything to make it appear as bad as possible, and the Government were opposed also by the press of tho country, which had got into the hands of supporters of the Opposition. This was what tho Liberal party had been apposed to for twenty-one years, and it was a wonder that tho party had been able to achieve so much. He claimed that tho New Zealand spirit would never tolerate a Conservative party. The increase of tho graduated land tax was tho only wav to get effective land .settlement, jlo would lay down an area lliat a man could hold, and all above that area should ciuue under tho -graduated tax. If a mail complained that he was being unduly taxed, then the Government should fatal his land at a value to be fixed, and give him Government debentures for it. l'ho workers of the country were behind the Government, and ,the large landowner* with their meney were behind the Hcforni party, large sums of money had been subscribed by thoso men for tho last Opposition campaign. The Opposition made a big mistake if they tried to abolish co-operative labour.' lie has co-6pcru-tivo labourers in his district, and ho knew that if the Opposition got on.to the Treason- benches, and tried to get rid of them the'v would not last tong. He blamed the Opposition at groat length for. hindering land settlement.

Mr. Fisher: Ton abandon your Land Bill. Mt. Forbes: Wo abandoned no Land Bill. (Opposition laughter.) However, added Mr. Forbes, they would get another Land Bill, and it would be a very radical one. Mr. Forbes, who had evidently been talking against time, with considerable difficulty occupied his full hour. i An Emphatic Denial. Mr. Masscy gave an emphatic denial to a statement by Mr. Forbes that the 'large landowners had subscribed Jargo sums of money for the. Reform party's campaign, fie Would tell Mr. Forbes the exact position. He had ran the last election for between .CfiOO and .EVOO, and hnd paid tho gentleman who was acting partly as organiser and partly as his secretary out of that sum. These moneys came not from tho large landowners, but from the mem-' bers of the Reform' League in different parts of Now Zealand. They gave their half-crowns, their half-sovereigns, and occasionally ■ their sovereigns, according to their means, but the money did not como from the wealthy men and'the large landowners of this country. During lh o six years he had been leader of, the party ho had drawn from the party funds only about enough to pay for his posta-'e stamps. If the large landowners had contributed'a lot of money he would doubtless havo been nblo to draw travelliii" expenses. • , " \

On the motion of the Prime Minister th? debate was adjourned until 2.30 n in to-oay.