THE HOUSE.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1479, 29 June 1912, Page 6

THE HOUSE.

t- IMPREST SUPPLY. . THE FOUR MILLION LOAN. ; POINTED FINANCIAL CRITICISM. * T.he House of Representatives met at •2.30 p.m. yesterday. Mr. W. H. Herries (member for Tauranga) was granted leave of absence for seven, (lavs. An Imprest Supply Bill was introduced by Governor's Message at 3.25 p.m. Mr. MASSE V (Leader of the Opposition) uttered a vigorous protest against the action of the Government in leaving the passage of an Imprest Bill to be dealt with, at tlio last moment. Parliament, ho contended, should be convened at a sufficiently early date to' allow an Imprest Bill to bo dealt with long before the end of June, so that time might be. given ;for the ventilation and redress of grievances. Ho regretted that this course had not been followed on the present occasion, when, for obvious reasons, Parliament should havo been convened long before the last possible day. He lioped that in future years the opening ot' Parliament would not be deferred, until Juno 2S. Tho PRIME MJiWPEIi: I may point out to the lion, gentleman that this is an annual complaint of his. . Mr. MASSEY (emphatically): It is not. ,Mr. MACKENZIE: The Houso was called together at. tho usual day. Mr. Jas. ALLEN (Bruce): The hon. gentleman has flnitted to state that the conditions are entirely different from ' those obtaining..!!! past years.

Mr. Mackenzie: Tho conditions aro very good. ■ Mr. Jas. Allen: The , lion./gentleman has omitted to statu that ho has never yet met Parliament, and does not know what Parliament thinks of him or of his colleagues. It was not fair to the country nor to members on his own side that Parliament should have been so long delayed. Tho Ministry do not know to-day whether they havo a' majority'in. Parliament, and they had no right to leave Supply to the very last moment. They 'should have ascertained whether they had the House and country with them before thev compelled Parliament to pass an Imprest Bill this day. or hold up salaries. Mr. 'Allen continued that ho had never approved of what had been done during tho last twenty-five years' in delaying Parliament until almost the last day nf June with the object of compelling fh» House to put through an Imprest Supply Bill, practically speaking, without d, oTthT'motion of the PRIME MINISTER, it was agreed that Mr. J. C. Thomson (Wallace) should take tho chair in Committee of Supply. More Information Wanted. ' On the motion to go into Committee of Ways and Means, Mr. W. F. MASSEY (Leader of the Opposition) asked the Primo Minister or the Minister for Finance whether tho Government were in a position to give the House any information m regard to the floating of the four or four and a halt million loan, referred to in cablo messages of the last few weeks. All that Parliament and the pooplo knew was contained in tho cabled information. I he loan had be»n placed and underwritten at a cost of one per cent., discount and underwriting would cost another one per cent. Was the Minister in a position to lav the prospectus before Parliament, and, it not, .'.lather ho could give the prmcinal devils of it. Tho Minister for Finance • •Hist be possessed of those details, which , lie people of the Old Country must know--1,-™t He hoped that tho necessity for 4,recy was a thing of the past, but in fie meantime tho Houso did not know, iikl the people did not know, about the Iran. and they certainly ought to know at the earliest possible dato. The MINISTER FOR lINANCB (Mr. A. M. Mvcrs) said ho was surprised that 'h > leader of tho Opposition had at this p irly stage of tho session made this com-pi-iint. It was quito evident from his Veclvrs in his perambulations round tlio jountry Urn'; he had endeavoured to mako

the people of tho country believe that our finances were carried on under tho cloak of secrecy, and that there was a lot that the Government wished to conceal. As far as this Government was concerned they did not desire, nor was it their intention to carry out any policy of secrecy, They had nothing to hide about raising a loan or anything else. But they were sensible of their responsibilities, and when a Minister for Finance undertook the responsibility of floating a loan in the London market it was clear that before certain particulars in regard to that loan were made public it must bo' certain that tho making public of the information would not all'ect the ercdit of tho Dominion. It would 1)0 good policy—and he commended it to the earnest consideration of the Leader of the Opposition—to treat suestions of finance as they treated questions of defence. Mr. James Allen: So we do. Mr. Myers reiterated that he did not think that some members realised their responsibilities, if ono could judge by the utterances of some of them during tho last week or two. It was quito apparent to anybody, and more especially to tho member for Franklin, Leader of the Opposition, that certain. loans were maturing this year, and the late Minister for Fiuanco had made ft statement to tho Houso that it was not his intention in view of the political situation to mako any flotation. Mr. James Allen: Not in the House. Mr.'Myers: He made that statement in the House. "So," "So," from tho Opposition benches. Jlr. Myers insisted' that Sir Joseph Ward made the statement. Having tho responsibility "that t-ftere might: be . a change on.the.Treasury Benches, .the late Minister did. not -think ho was justified ill embarrassing in__any_ way. the future Minister for Finance.- . His '.reasons for making.the statement-were no,doubt that if money were to. go down lio would bo charged with - prejudicing the credit - of the country. He had made temporary arrangements for meeting the.loans,maturing, and. for money for. immediate requirements. That .wa.-! the position that he (.Mr. Myers) had had to. meet when lio took office. Complaint /Jbout Secrecy. In reply to' the request for the prospectus, ho said' that prospectuses were never issued at this end, atifl ho gave the information-that.some 120 cablegrams had passed from tho Government to London since November regarding the loan.. This clearly showed tho position to be, ho said, that the Minister-' got his information from the men at the other end. Nothing in tho nature ol' a prospectus could be given to the House, because such a thing never was done, and never could be dono. Anyone with ally knowledge of matters financial must kjiow that they were of a most delicate nature, and the Government had to he guided by tho opinion of its agents in London. Not a member of the Cabinet, would allow the charge of secrecy to be made against the Government. They had absolutely nothing to hide, and they intended to take members of the House into their fullest confidence. Xet practically before the underwriting was finished., certain members of the House had clamoured that they be informed of particulars of tho loan. How could information be supplied on a matter the initial staue-s ol' which had not beeu completed? The object of all the complaint about secrecy was to excitc suspicion. Mr. James Allen: That is an improper suggestion.

'J.'lie Minister for Finance thought it was a fair inference from the suggestion that all available information was not being supplied. Mr. James Allen: Have you any information at all?

The Minister: Oh,ycs.,.Do you wish for a little more information? (Opposition laughter.) Then ho went on to state that from November last until April 1 of this year there were loans to tho amount of maturing in London, and the balance of tin: recent loan was raised in connection with advances to workers, advances to settlers, lands for settlement, public works, naval defence, and under the Land Settlement Act. The High Commissioner in London was duly advised what amount they were likely to require, ami lie acted accordingly, but until the Government received from the High Commissioner full details they were not in a position to give any further information. ... •

Mr. A. L. Herdman: What did the loan cost ?

The Minister replied that it was raised at 99, subject to a charge of one per cent. He went on to say .that various rates had been mentioned in connection with what the loan would cost. If circumstances wero favourable, a.nd if the market was favourable, it wiis desirable to float n stock loan for a long period. Now tho market was not favourable to the issue of such 'a loan, and lie ventured to say there was not a single member of the House, who, if he .bad been in the position of Minister for Finance, and having the facts presented to him' by tho High Commissioner, who would not have acted as he had acted. There had bewi a great change in the money market in the last few months, and it was impossible to float a stock loan under favourable conditions. Ho hoped that before the debate was concluded, some, members, even on tho Opposition side of the Hojise. would compliment the Minister for Finance on having floated the loan at: the price it was issued at. ' The interest would be at the rate of. <£3 12s. per cent. Tliis was omitting the discount. No one could tell how long the present state of the market would last, and it was hoped that on maturity of the loan tho market would be favourable enough to allow tho conversion to take placo ou reasonable terms. If unforseen circumstances should arise, the Minister for Finance would doubtless be enabled to make a conversion beforo maturity on good terms. i Mr. F. M. B. Fisher: Can you tell me hon- much of (he JJ million will como into New Zealand ?

The Minister: The honourable gentleman will have an opportunity of making his speech later. Mr. Myers concluded by saying that ho was giving all the information that he could givo now, and that ho objected to the remarks about secrecy. The House then went into Committee of Ways and Means, and in Committee, Language to Conceal Thought. Mr. W. I-'. MASSE V (Leader of the Opposition) said that in- answer to a very simple question the Minister for Finance had delivered a very , long speech. In respect to candour he said the speech reminded him of the saying that language was used by some men to conceal their thoughts. The Minister had piven 110 information while he wasspeaking. Mr. Myers had expressed opinion that ho (Mr. Massev) was actuated by party spirit in asking for information. To this statement he (Mr. Massey) took exception, and he would say to the Minister that the statemont. was absolutely contrary to fact. He (Mr. Massey) was actuated by no party motives, but if members did not ask for information, they would be failin" in their duty. As .long ns Jus remained a member' of Parliament ho was going to .seo that money wns well and properly exponded. Ho had scarcely expected that .% copy of the prospectus would be laid on tuo table,, but he presumed that it was issued in London in accordance with instructions given at this end. mid forwarded by the Jlinister for Finance. The honourable gentleman did not deny that this was tho position. In erer? paper of

consequence in London a prospectus of the .loan would be published. Ho asked whether it was not .fair that the people in New Zealand, on whom behalf the loan was being, raised, should not know .something'about the terms, when everybody iii London who .ciiral. could. Ret the information. • The Minister: That is in London. 'Mr. Massey and other Opposition mimic rs laughed. \ The Minister: The money is not being fouiid by the peoplo of New Zealand. Mr. Massey laughed again, and suggested that tho peoplo for whom the money was being raised were likewise interested. He asked whether any arrangements'had been made for converting the loan. The Minister: No. Very Much Worse. Mr. Massey: Then the position is very much worse. Assuming, he continued, that the underwriting had cost one per cent., and the discount one per cent., then, in addition to tile 31 per cent, interest, there would ho 2 per cent, spread over a period of two years. This brought the cost of the loan up to i\ pur cent., and in addition to that there were the flotation charges. lie maintained that it would cost 5 per cent., and tliat was too much. The Prime Minister: Could you have got it cheaper? Mr. Massjy: If the loan had been raised at tho right time, yes. If a long-dated loan had l>pen placed three months ago, before the industrial trouble occurred, we could have got the Joan at 4 per cent. 110 asked how much of tho loan was coming to New Zealand. How much was being useif in London for repayment of old loans. Til j 'Hon. G. W. RUSSELL (Minister for Internal Affairs) generally took exception to the allegations of secrecy against the Government. He also matin tho accusation that tho Opposition was damaging the credit of tho country. Mr. Jlassey retorted that tho credit of the country was good, and it was not the fault of the Kuntry.or its'people if it deteriorated, but the fault of those who were in charge of the country's affairs. The PRIME MINISTER said that 110'hing could have made any difference ofcout this loan, nnd it was not disputed that tho best liad been done. The Government had taken into consideration the cost of a. long-dated as against the cost of a short-dated loan. Presumably the advice from London was correct, and it had been acted upon. Ho took no exception to the request for information, and tho Government would give every bit they had. What the Minister for Finance dill take exception to was the charge by implication that there was some secrecy, some concealment of something improper. The member for Bruce had assuman air of severity which was not suited to the large leartedncss of the honourable gentleman. Some Questions. Mr. JAMES ALLEN (Bruce) said ho took no exception to secrecy before the loan was floated, but lie did object to secrecy after the loan was floated . and after the peoplo in London knew all about it. It was only when tho Minister for Finance was pestered with questions that lie gave any information at all. Would the Minister say under what authority, lie raised any money for liaval defence' under this loan? Would ho not admit that in the five million loan of last year tho whole of the loan for naval defence was authorised? Tho Minister: Authorised, but not floated. Mr. Allen: Was not tho whole of the five million loan underwritten and floated ? The Minister: Only a portion. Mr. Allen: This is the first time I have heard that only a portion of tho five million loan was floated last year. We thought tho whole loan was floated, and that the whole amount of one and a quarter millions for naval defence was included in it. Mr. JOHN PAYNE (Grey Lynn) said that ho was disgusted that the Opposition should waste the time of tho House in squabbling. Dr. A. IC. NEWMAN (Wellington East) asked why on earth tho Minister for Finance should not tell tho House what lie must know. Why should he not answer a civil question asked ncross the floor of the House? What had ho to hide? It would*all.be contained in tho English papeTS arriving within a week. Generally lie contended that the system of finance followed by the Government was a wrong one, and ho compared it witli tho system followed by public bodies under which members could inspect all documents of all sorts. Would the Minister for Finance authorise "him to inspect tho Treasury records? , , Sir Joseph WARD (Awarua) discussed briefly the advantages of short-dated, as opposed to long-period loans. Then he turned his attention to The, Dominion - . Ho said it had attacked him, of course, but ho cared ''no more about it than for tho 'dirt olf his boot." He had got to tho position that lie did not believe a single word it. said, except about its friends. It could not hurt him amongst his friends, and ns far as his opponents were concerned it did not matter. Tho Hon. Georgo Laurenson: Don't tako any notice of it. Sir Joseph Word said that he would tako not.ico of it, especially regarding some damaging statements, but he would do it later. Mr. W. FRASER (Wakahpu) said that lie would defer a detailed Tepl.v to some of tho matters raised by Sir Joseph Ward nntil such time as what was said would lie taken down to appear in Hansard, lie could not, however, allow the statement that shor!-dated loans were liettGWjjhan longdated ones, to go forth to th?' public unchallenged. Sir Joseph Ward had said Hint hundreds of thousands had hern saved to tho country by ruling a short-dated loan instead of one with a term of thirty or forty years. Sir Joseph Ward raised a noint of order. and denied that, he hud made, the statement attributed to him, What ho

had said was that <it:.:fiwould';;liaye.,. .costs the country from •£7ri0;0(10/[tqj : 1 moro -for 'the money,^/nirw^;liii9 : -]iijjti $' short-dated loan bewi raised for conversion purposes. Mr. FI iASJJB accepted is ; -stiite'fii'eiVt;~ : but remarked that. »thoJ:!io;i; v : ; genlleinaii: had forgotten to state' tliat;'-plin];t-da!ed-debentures had to-be; tgiiou-eHj-timp; i>fter.. time, and yon coiild, ed for nothing. . As;lfe !iad :f .prediqtcd::.in, tha [last, the ed loans had come honn? like chickens to roost. ' In a 'speech .-..sonic•• years f jj'gswhc? had said that the day. would come when these short-dated loansMvouldrconVerlvaclc for renewal. As to jwhafo*ras£caHedii??r(p demption," it B : to pay back A.. On : rtliis, «ccasiom'sd' money market was against:!iy ;: ,;This:;was not (lie fault of the (ioyeriiinent;;:; ;:No one liacl said it tested against, and did. protest -:a?ainst, was the policy, of raisins sliort-dated lpans' wliich was ruinous to Ulis country. ;• .

_Mr. A. _ [j. North) said he was '. that the Cloveninient on -. the- Treasury Benches was rcsponsihlp'Jfor•Jth'6?3asofi , 'ii' nnnoial traiisaetion; -'. .'l'he conditions' of the loan showed that" the .finances .of iliH (ountry were in ai^lesperaie.ricoiiiliiibn'i : 1 hanks to the policy"of-theHate iljnistry.; The time had :w!if'ii J Nc\v : ''"Zc , a- : land had practicallysiiut<thb ;iivarket;jiiiV | ajcuiiut itself. He when the whole expf'ii.-fs. ot' tho' /fourl million loan were taken, into account the j country would be piiyiug ;W !-<„ or close'i on five per cent. sary to pay ,l't for-nioiu-y' required [ the country was dition. and the .li'adi.'con-; trolled the financial- p6lic.y. : ;.of»:the.:;l)briiin:' ion in the p;isfc were res])on>ible;;.foi ; }.the-' lircsnnt position. The. time' luul cbnie for: the House to 'financio[;policy;;;lt; should bo dccided whei:her;t:h«;;!)ast : ;ik)]icy!should be continued.or^sdinp.stoblo.iinetlir'; od adopted of raisiHff-' : - leaii&.-v;vfpr';-';, : '.li>iiM'-: : periods. What the. Reform -party - had done in the past ivas-Jtoilprbtqst.; against-, the mismanagement-..whichihad'-'iresulted; iii the present troubleV/;^f;?/t The PRIME MINISTER-^skedV.-Mr;-Herdman whether he .would: tlio loan, under for a longer period tlian..tu'o;yoars. ' Mr. Herdman said that lie. would reply later. '■ vi-./'vv'.'::''"./"h; Mr. T. M. that the question of ',Tais!.hg...lbans; : not bo dealt with on party line* at all. | The country must 'ilepehd.v.iipbn.'.tKc-l'adT-: vice of its financial experts.and agents in .T.omlon and stand by : Vit. v ; : ''lf ; tho.: :M i for Finance erred, he 1 when he had failed. Statements, prejudicial to Xew /eainn(l. l rcd, had appeared iii the J.oiiilon papers'. Even the effect of tliah r\f'ten\oori'.s dis-' : ' cussion would rccoiljon. t!K! .lirads-eHlier of those who now occTnricd 'tlie ::rrc;tfl:ry: Benches or of jyilf--' ford defended the four ■'ininjonilban' opera--t.ion on the ground that if we had an "T.O.TJ." out at a liiglic-r'-'rate of interest, the shorter its term. : the better. • A Statement Challenafid. Sir. F. M. B ri°HER Central) asked Mr. AVilt'ord. to sultstetiato a statement ho liact'.riiade liicnts prejudicial to'; Xew - Zealand; were published in Lotido'i papers; Mr. Wilford: I lmvc not .one, clipping of any statement London papers, but I refer the lion, gentleman to the ;, -L'ondbnV. "Tillies;!!' j Mr. Fisher: Tlio;si;l^ii'd(^ : p''.'".Xin}eg "■ being somewhat bulky,. mv ])rospccts hf. iindini the paragraphs, -referred io are' somewhat remote. '■ ■' ; Mr. AVilford: I .';shpuld;..likc; : ,..t9 ..-haxS,. produced them, and liouioft. yo'i clcan Ollt. • - '■ Mr. Fisher: Von. would: not linvo I>owled me clean out, V!K?cause;:l;.flb. i!pt;'.:say that the statei:!ent did not appear, but the inference is always drawn ..that tliov are inspired by soinconc 'on ihis side of the House. .v t The Hon. G. W. Jtussell; Oh, wo know who sends them. ■%. vfi '/'■ ' . . : ' Mr. Fisher: Well," pet- i;p. ar.d say who sends them. I will give way to the hon. gentleman if he. \v.ill^getCupV'Md .tell us who sends them. - . : Mr. Russell: I nni not. going to interrupt your speech'.;. ; .-.f(L'iiiglitbr;}.; -.I. .'kn'bw who is correspondent, for. a lot of Conservative papers in iEnglaba,. : ; ' ....•■ Jlr. Fisher: Let us know who they are. I challenge voir to. give the name and you don't do it. '. Mr" "Russell didi/iiot.'Jr.eply..,. Mr. AV. C BLCII WW IV. air said the financial policy.;of previo\is Governmcuts had Ix-eiv tlie/ policy ; p.f' ■ -Mi;; Jlicawber. Mr. Russell in Error. The Hon. G. \V. -i;t?.«KLT, said fii.at he had never of the Ojiposition ;: or .any.' of them had over sent out cables-prejudicial to this countrv. Hut ii ..was commonly, under-; stood that the AYw-'Zeaiamb-Vorrespoiid-ent of the ].ondoif : ;"Tiine^%;;s correspondent ' for;' 1 iirpo-;; lc'uli tig G.b.n- j servative papers in:tliis country. ■■■ : Sir Joseph AVard :i said:;thaj;!iit ; watf , fair to say that qiiesti.o.iiwaa not correspondentfor- the 1/i.wion "Times." (Hear, hear;)., . : ; \.- J[r. Massev sai(tsftl«H^.a? ! -?firipin'i. chargehad been made againit a"genlle:nan. with whom ho was very well asquairited. He was in a position to: state that.lhc.gentieman who was correspondcnt for':fhe; Zealand papers indicated- Ijy :tl : .e Minister-, was not correspondent' to: "tli.e' London.: *l'ue° first reading rif the Hill was agreed to on the voices. -- On the motion that -it be read a se.c'b.ndtime, Finance and Party-.,. i Sir JOSEPH Ilia! he had ! believed all his life that. iiiianc:' 4'.ji:ld 1 be kept clear of piiriy:; v :;Hu£ jn ftis . tS: : porienro finance w.i>. the. one tliim; that had always been 'pflirt'js; 1 dis~eu?ion. The Slig-Jf'.4i6ti ii ,l)r-v>i. niadv ; j that tho iiriifcnt j>|i.■ I sponsible for the doiiiUtioM'Sißd^-W#!

tlio loan had been raised, but that Sir Jpseidv.M'ardAiya's. l ."' He was.gohig. tb' put I ■-p r ti;" :: tha;^linijsti:ji-'tU'o v frp'tt'-.'a'ii'd'iVidepGiVileiit .livembei'v;'lie'- declined;' ;fii\aiice^ : 'iio.tv-ini'-ri■ '^n'tisfactory."Estate whei!:::''li6.::gayf :iip,?;Ss Ilartlly a incinlK'r jn'/the. lioiise could 'say ' he wanted for hi:; consliluency 'and. few | could. 'say that t hey had not siipported j roV6i\v^ Hew.ould give the fnost and iiillc-s.t authority' for the renioval. any'.?, (locii-';.' :.;i;e!atiiig/>top' tliti-i ; ::A!n.''' : '"idoa;;''-h fnf of m'a vh ad? Jbc'enV''-withheld:, ifbfi ..reason,-.'Lei-the. Hbiise pass a resolution 'taking re-. tin g.fo' .'.ilqa'iiV;:'-'..'.;;T ha jfriiyi:: There -detail..about anjy past, loan: fluit. coitld iibt Iks got -from the.{ ■Treasury... The .four and a half millionrequirements and for some renewals of TetoiyaiS^Hd'iiioti^piic^ so far «s the future was concerned....lt :J]ft»clv^ljeeh\ i -i^ll^{ic(r_fHiatSHio--: : ?pqve"rnin.c : iiCi!! (lurii'.g; his jr;riiv 'pf;'. office,:-1 illc I.v pnVt!: brought about the .lightnes> : - of money by ibbtainirig^adyanc'ps:!'™^ Zea!an<l. . Fioiu ISHI9 to; the end of 191(1 ■tiie Governliiefxt had -oniy two^'advahces' .at: 'lif'per ;ce,iiti aiiil -iu toan ill) to:. ;.;£2|D,oo6,'.if tlio' baiik'.j-ato'.ipiiiisiirs ni,.!i p<?'i- Cent. V.Sir 1 Jcseph \\;u;d said that-this information wis contained in a' *iieivsp'appr. :J :)Ylnclr: hn(l -bco!!. seiit tvi ■iiiiii, ; - ' V.;: .:: :'^i#/^ph,"JVa'rif/wfeantcrfun^fcj , (liie'' dinruMt '.adjournment.' On ' lesuming' he continued his statement:regarilingdho' re-. .riutitinp." teHttoslio\v, , that:-the;:-coiiVf;:i-siniis:\'\ : itlv which he had Ik-en associated'had !;.H'n entirely' fatisfnchiry. ' Then' lip'' weiit' on . W,..t 0 11 o?>; li" 11 is ;'t ji V-cifi.t;. tp :'s;iy ;.!no ro; ahon t : ; ! '!'hk Dominion, a copy of which journal ■he-' tlio;:]t ouso.: ; ; : There: aiv article in ii.'.ho .said, iu which- his name the.article,'.iioHlpubt, and caused. it. to 1m? ; ; ;Th^;.!irticlp j : in.fluestipnSreM thbM :.fibri'.-iii!eniber the r?ydi;ey ; "liuUetiu,". but. Sir. Jo.-eph Ward: -saul ■it :\\-as;;au;;att^nipt:to:gct ; ;it ;:i: : . :::i i|eyitable' on Xew Zea I and, .and he.. repii-: :i(liatecl;;thb -.suggestion that he ''cost; Xew Zealand,' a ; great deal of . money, . aiul left ..things "in..au|awfiU,.messi'KiHq' ; said llia.t. the "Bulletin" was. "tho-. best- ■ written '.ibiinii!! : iVecl i.'iio'jVp. ...tlio'/jSio ■' Iliat iit-./Jiail; I)ceii::qnoted. Xcw Zealaiid journal. ;This latter piipcr, iii order avowedly: to help this Comitry, but in-.reautv to damage a man opposed. 1 Lo ;it; .;rnado: u5C' : .of ;said were mitrue. ; .'-''.s-. I *': ", ; Tli9- ;^penkeiS: ; 4ntii;nVptcd:'tlVei;' ; mem ■■.'and'.'/lib-'Eaid-'® -re-; : marks on ~tk« third reialiiig of. the Bill.. , Thei Minister's Reply. : . Tho Hon. :A... M; MYKRS.JMinistef for. Dc.fe.nee) then replied... Ho, said liO;wished, to reply : t(i:. tliq siiggcstioii:: t.liat: all :;;tlie ;o'mount. authorised' Act was included iii tlio..fivo million loaii'.. As a 'matter of fact'the amount the Dreadnought;in the fivo million, loan was 1\- millions,- and the total amount authorised n.'ider 'lie. Act was:byo millions; Ho argued also from '.figures :*quoted Kcw 7x;al.;uid floated loans, at as liti'.e cost' as ' other Australian States." TiHi'SiihO'iSlaidVin. iie said,.had state;!:that-the four million, loan hc | .d;da!tiagecl the'cix-cli-t af- tlte :co,uii--;tryi. O. 1 :' !i : >' y : Mr. G. V, PEARCE (I'atea). rose t« inakof a 'personal exiilanatiou. He had said in fact that it was. the scatter-cash..policy, qf I'the.'.XjbsTcr'nine'nt,' thats'-.had ; ■cretlif ot; thc coniitt:y,:;aii(l; : 'tH;vt; tho^ : million loan, had proved. :{rhtS; : secpnd:^ / yoices,;: cbihinittcd.and repbr.teil without ; amendment. s