LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1446, 22 May 1912, Page 8

LOCAL GOVERNMENT.

CONFERENCE OPENED. MINISTER'S COMPREHENSIVE REVIEW. DRASTIC ALTERATIONS OUTLINED. DELEGATES' CRITICISMS.

The Local Government Conference, (which was.convened by the Ministry to assist in framing a new system of local government, met in tho Sydney Street Schoolroom yesterday, and was opened .by tho Prime Minister (Hon. T. Mackenzie). Tho Hon. G. W. Russell, Minister for Internal Affairs, presided, and several other members of the Cabinet ,wero. present at tho opening of the proceedings. Messrs. J. Hislop (UnderSecretary for Internal Affairs), H. J. H. B.low (Under-Secretary for Public Works), •W'J '.Tolliffp (Crown Law .Draftsman), and Dr. T. H*A'.. Valintiiuv (Inspector-General uf Hospitals) were in attendance..'.

'The'princ.ipal business of the morning session was tlis delivery of a comprehensive introductory address by the Minister for Internal Affairs, who made it'clear that the present Government would be prepared for considerable changes in the local Government Bill, .•which had been put forth as the basis , . .... •■THE PREMIERS SPEECH. . THE EDUCATION QUESTION. The HonT T. Mackenzio (Prime Minister), -.who was received .with applause, raid -—"I have pleasure in welcoming you to 'Wellington to take part in discussing the question of local government, and to obtain your views "regarding the measure. There has been a cry for local government: constantly repeated, but if I give Imy candid opinion upon the subject it as"this: That there is very littlo""real de- ' Rire '.for a change in existing conditions. •In tli<i abstract, a Local Government Bill, . giving "extended powers, is approved; in the concrete trifled with. "We, however, the procedure of calling together here to-day, as applied to local government, .the essence of the practical experience and the wisdom of the Dominion rand wo are going tci ask you to deal ,witlb."the measure and assist us constructively; with the .Bill., The matter should 'be approached in no party spirit. If 'party" were to enter in, it would be impossible under' existing circumstances to' carry out such a measure in Parliament. •"Upon the question of education, I desire .to -mako my views perfectly clear. I'do not approve of much alteration in connection with education. It is much too serious a subject, to bo trifled with. It has take®, oyer forty years to evolve and develop our present system, and therefore-to",'nlako; li . 1 change, lightly is a: step that' I -could not concur in.' I would TatherV:o«larg(!'. tha-ipotfers of education beards, and' restore to them much that; has been taken away - during - recent, fears. i< fl (Hsar,. hear.) ,„,If ■ dissatisfaction; 'exists with education that, I consider, to bo directly attributable to the centralising influences that have'been at play for some considerable time, and in proportion to interference by central authority so, in i my opinion, have changes taken place that on tho whole have not led to improvement. A Commission is to be set up to deal with this- important question, and we' will await the. results proceeding further. _ The Local Government Bill was submitted last session as & framework and a basis for discussion. I am content to leave the matter in your hand=, and will await with great interest tho result of your deliberations and tho nature of your recommendations. •

MR. RUSSELL'S SPEECH.

THE GREAT NEED FOR REFORM, . % \ NOT COMMITTED TO THE BILL. Tho Hon. G. AV. Russell, who was also well received, then delivered his opening address. Tho Minister said, in part: Gentlemenl have to' thank you for coming to Wellington for the purpose ot taking part in this conference, which is probably tho largest and most important that has yet been held in New Zealand. , T'ho subject wo have to deal with is the 'reform of local government ill tho Dominion. It is ono of vast importance, because ; local government comes home to the people dav by dav, and reaches them in their • tlaily "lifo to'a far greater degree than does tho General (or Central) Government. I fully recognise the work that is icing done b'v the local governing bodies of the'.country—work that is done without any reward, and often with but littlo recognition in the way of honour. And vet it is the work upon which has depended tho expansion of settlement, tho pushing 'back of the confines of' civilisation, the development of tho interior, and tho general progress of tho people of New Zealand.

Essentials of Sound Local Government. ' "What are the essentials of sound local government? I would deiino them as follow:— * ,(l.) 'Simplicity of form and method. (2) Efficiency as regards local and district needs. ' (3) Economy of administration. ■ Komul and assnred finance. (5) Capacity for promoting . local development. '(6) Tower to "group contiguous districts for common- purposes. Can it be said that there is simplicity in a form of local government which provides for lioad Board and Town Board operating within the same sphere as a County Council—levying rates and-laving separate staffs, and possessing to some ex-tent--the same functions? Some of the existing counties lave a population of less/than 1000 persons; mnnv others havs less* than 2000 persons-, only twenty-five have a population of over 5000. A system of local government which allows thrco different forms of governmental administration to exist within such sparsely populated-areas is surely , not only fantastic,'but 1 utterly ridiculous. In addition, however/ to' tlio three classes of authoritid?;:namcd, there are others in tho same district—such as the Education Board, the School' Committees, tho Hospital and Charitable Aid Board, tho Hnrbour Board, and several otliers, all of which necessitate certain expenses for election, and* in most cases, for management. Assuming that tho 3887 local bodies have an average membership of six, wo have 23,202..per50ns engaged in some form or i other of local government in the Dominion, or o'no out of every forty-threo persons of tho entire population, or probably, if -we take the adult male population, o[l9 in about every fifteen.

Efficiency, No doubt the evolution of time and the practical experience of those engaged in the work of local government have, upon tho whole, secured a certain, amount of efficiency as regards -what I may call the "bread-and-butter" duties and tesponsv bilities of the local. government bodiessuch as attending to roads, bridges, streets, etc. .But there are many higher purposes that come under tho heading ot local govern ns libraries; the •preparation of suitable by-laws, varying according to iho district in which thoso by-laws are intended to. operate; and many such matters—which cannot bo upon a footing whilo tho bodies that ileal with them ore weak eo far as both population and financo aro concerned. Tho Question of Economy, X r.nw come to the question of economy of administration. smo total receipts of

all tho ordinary local government bodies in New Zealand during tho year ending March 31, 1911, were .£5,428,070. Tho expenditure of all the ordinary local governmeat bodies in 2Cew Zealand during tuo year ending March 31, 3911, was <£0,138,070. Eliminating the Harbour Boards, whoso finances aro of a somewhat exceptional character, tho following aro the figures for all other local authorities, excluding Hospital and C'haritablo Aid Boards and Tramway Boards •.—lievenue raised locally, .£2,013,027; general rates included in the above, .£1,05",594; cost of management, .£253,551. On the above figures the cost of management represented 9.70 per cent, of the total revenue raised locally, ami no less than 23.12 per cent, on the total general rates, while the cost on public works expenditure of tho various boards was 11.32. I think no one who looks at the figures carefully will deny that the people of this country are paying a heavy price for the administration of local government, and no further proof is wanted of tho statement that the multiplicity of local bodies is certain to lead to increasingly largo expense in connection with local government. There can be no doubt that the road boards, some of tho town boards, tho river boards, and tho land drainage boards should be capable of being absorbed by tho county councils— (hear, hear, and dissent)—and whero the functions and responsibilities of river boards, land drainage boards, and watersupply boards extend over and beyond the existing county boundaries, a simple method of grouping the counties interested for the particular purpose of dealing with the water-supply should easily be found, in order that the bodies to which I have referred might bo absorbed and consolidated with the counties. Increased powers are also necessary to facilitate the grouping of. contiguous boroughs and areas.

A Sound and Assured Finance. This probably is tho crux of the whole question—(hear, hear)—namely, how far should tho entire -financial responsibility of local government rest upon the various localities, or how far is it incumbent upon the central Government to assist to provide tho cost of tho local governing bodies? ' ; > There seems lo bo a consensus of opinion that that portion of the local bodies' revenues which are described as tolls, licenses, etc., should continue as at present. Tho question is how far the State should be held responsible for tho assistance of all local authorities and for tho development of tho out-districts. At present a system is in operation providing for payment of subsidies on general rates on tho scale of last year's Appropriation Act, and of tho Municipal Corporations Act, and the Hospitals and Charitable Institutions Act. In the Bill which is now before you a fresh basis' w'as proposed,-by dividing the Capital value of the Tateabje property in tho county by tho number of square miles included m the county and granting subsidies ranging from 2s. Gd. to 20s. in the pound. I have had this scheme of sub-sidies-worked out by the Valuer-General compared with tile existing scheme and am satisfied that it is unworkable, and this feature of the Bill must, I think, be abandoned. (Hear, hear.) Allocation of Subsidies. Speaking personally, it appears to me that tho system of subsidies _ should be regulated rather by the necessities of the districts than by the amount of rates that may be collected. (Hear, hear.) For example, I think no one would suggest that a rich, wealthy, and well-roaded district should receive a subsidy on the same basis | as should undoubtedly be paid to an unI developed, unroaded, bush and hill district, wherever situated—(hear, hear)— whilst the spectacle of a rich city like "Wellington or Auckland, Cliristchurch, or Dunedin, receiving a subsidy upon rates in tho samo way as a small borough such as To Aroha, Eastbourne, New Brighton, or Alexandra seems on the face of it absurd. Public subsidies should, I think, bo paid according to the necessities of the district which receives tho money, rather than upon the wealth of a district. It is true that the subsidies fpr boroughs arc limited to a sum'of i 450 per year; but one would think that that sum could bo better spent in tho backblocks of tho province than in a wealthy city with, say, ,£15,000,000 capital value. (Hear, hear.) If wo could provide a plan by which a certain Bum of money could bo sot aside each year for tho development and roading of tho backblock portion of the country, and if the distribution of this money vrero placed in tho hands of tho Local Government Board, so that each district lind to prove its claim, I think a better system would be found than that .which wo have at the present time. A Thorny Question. , j One of the questions therefore which should be submitted to this conference is this: Is it desirable in the interests of the country that the present system of subsidies and roads-and-bridges grants should be continued; and in what direc- | tion can a change bo made so as to provide for the interests of the out-districts and smaller centres with weak finances, without pressing unfairly al *d unduly upon tho more settled portions of tho Dominions? I need not point out to you, gentlemen, that this is a very difficult and thorny question. Whether 'it is possible in a country situated A r c\y Zealand is, with its unsettled territories, its varying classes of country and industries, and its diverse interests, to formulate a scheme which would work automatically, is a problem which, I think, you, as a body of responsible men experienced in local government, should bo asked to consider. If this large gathering of tho most experienced men in the country cannot suggest a remedy I fear tho problem must for thojiresent be regarded as unsolvable. (Hear, hear.) . There has been an outcry m recent yenrs against votes for Toads and bridges. What is the remedy? What substitute can bo proposed? Is it to stop making such grants altogether, and throw on the settlers of the backblocks tho cost of makin" the roads lending to their homes? I think you will agree with me that tho ' Slate owes a responsibility to the pioneers who liavo pushed settlement farther and . farther back. It is tho duty of tho State to seo that they have access by i nl pans of fair roads and safe bridges in i order to 'get to and from their lands, ' and that "their produce may be got to ■ market.

The Settler and the State. But it is equally true that when those roads and bridges are made the affected lands at once rise enormously in value, and, seeing that directly the settlers are on the land they are liable to pay rates, which increase with the rise in the value of the land, the cost of those roads and bridges might, by a .long process of repayment, be recouped to the State by the local body in which they are situated. This was the principle underlying the lloads. and Bridges Construction Act of Sir Hum* Atkinson, and the later Loans to Local Bodies Act, which have now been absorbed in and repealed by tlio Stateguaranteed Advances Act, under which for the. financial year eliding on March 31, mil. the sum of JMOl.tlill was owing by local bodies. There will, however, ho a residua of public works (which should gradually bo reduced to the vanishing-point) where "rants may still bo nccessary lo meet obligations'on the pari of tlio Slate that have not been fulfilled. And on this point I tbiuk there should be a general

agreement with (lie principle, viz., 1 hat nil grant* should be l'or now work ami development, and tliat no Government grant should Ih; allowed to lie used for purposes of maintenance. cxcept in I Jin ease of Government roads ami roads which pass through country where virtually no rates are collectible. Provincial Councils. The leading feature of the Hill, so far as its policy proposals are concerned, is undoubtedly that for the establishment of Provincial Councils. I have read a great (leal of criticism in connection with the proposal to establish these i'roviiiehil Councils, which has appeared to mo to be sionrivhat misconceived. They have been represented as new rating machines, whereas at the present time several of tho harbour districts exercise rating powers; and those that do not exercise their rating jtowers by a direct tax upon property do so by the rates they levy upon the imports and exports which pass ever their wharves. So also with tho Hospital and Charitable .Aid Hoards; they formulate their demands, send out their levies upon the local authorities that are within their districts, and tho rates are collected for them and handed over to tho respective boards to expend and administer, '.there is, however, aigreat deal to be said upon this question. I may say <it once that in my opinion tho provincial districts proposed in tho first .schedule of tho Bill are too small, and do not assure a sufficient community of interest to make the scheme really workable. There should be a rearrangement of the boundaries of the proposed provinces, and in my opinion the number should bo reduced so as to sqcuro larger provinces. 1 believe that 0110 effect of the establishment of J.heso provinces would bo that tho division of interest between town and country, which has become so marked during tho last twenty-five years, would probably disappear, and that tho people of the provinces would begin to regard the cities and towns to which they belonged with pride, instead of with jealousy and envy. To Relieve Parliament. The chief advantage would be that, tho Central Parliament would be able to hand over to strong governing bodies a number of the functions which now fall upon it, because there is no other body to winch theso matters—which in many cases nre of purely provincial interest—can bo referred. l'or example, tho other day in one city an application was made for a Government grant for a museum. In mother city the Domains Board desires to iegulala tho Government representation npon that body, accordiug to the amount of annual subsidy which the Government is prepared to pay. Surely th» museums should bo regarded as provincial institutions rather than as national ones. In exactly the same way the domains of cities should be regarded with pride by the people of the provincial district, and should be supported by provincial funds rather than by .State grants. It is possible that the Bill goes too far, but I am satisfied that if the system were established on statesmanlike lines, and with-due regard to existing rights, and were in force a sufficient number of jears to test it, its benefits would be so apparent in the power of local self-government that would be given to tho people that it would be regarded as a, priceless heritage, leading to a, higher state .of local government than we have ever had before. I now come to another question that has been dealt with in connection with the Provincial Councils—l refer to education; but as the Government intends to set up a commission at an early date to consider the question, I tlo not propose to deal further with it.

' Debts of Local Bodies. The debts of local bodies at March 31, IDII, totalled ,£1G,131,77G. Of this sum, X' 8,658,476 has been raised in New Zealand (including -6401,163 from tho State Guarantee Office), and X 7,173,300 outside New Zealand. But besides tho abovo amount of *£10,131,770 there was a sum of ,£1,025,G(i3 owing to tho Government under the Roads and Bridges Construction Act, Government Loans to Local Bodies Act, and Loans to Local Bodies Act, making a total debt of .-£17,157,43'.). The total charge for interest and sinking fund is =CS3i,CSS, to which must bo added .£110,155, payable annually under the Loans to Local Bodies Act, being a total annual charge on tho local bodies of .£900,810. Tho loans had moro than doubled during tho Inst ten years, but municipal and harbour enterprise—such as tramways, etc.—had increased revenues under thoheading of "Licenses, Tolls, Rents, and other Sources," from ,£751,01G in 1901 to ,£1,911,G55 in 1911,' an increase of .-£1,190,609; whilst the rates had risen from JC7UO23 in 1901 to .£1,592,001 in 1911, an increase of J;855,575. This conference might with great advantage express'itself upon the following points:— (].) Should the sanction of tho Local Government Board bo necessary before a loan is obtained? (2.) Should the power to borrow bo in any way' limited, and to what degree? (3.) Should all local loans bo obtainable only from or through the Stateguaranteed Advances Department? Local Government Board. The object of setting up the Local Government Board is to place upon a responsible body of men, to a very large extent, the fiinctirms that have been hitherto exercised by the Minister or tha Cabinet. Tho board proposed, according to the Bill, is to consist of the Minister for Internal Affairs, the Under-Secretary for Internal Affairs, the Under-Secretary for Crown Lands, the Under-Sccrctary for Public "Works, and three other persons appointed by the Governor/ I propose to eliminate the UnderSecretary for Internal Affairs from tho beard, because that officer should bo the secretary of the board, and to substitute for him the Valuer-General. Instead of tho 1 establishment of the Local Government Board being, as alleged, a tendency towards centralisation, it will be the opposite, and the means of doing incalculable good. It will certainly I:o a democratic measure. If, after this explanation, the conference is of opinion that tho Local Government Board proposal is a revolutionary and retrograde measure (as has been frequently asserted at tho local conferences for the election of delegates), and if this conference considers it is bettor that tho powers proposed to be given to the board should continue to be exercised by tho Govcrnor-in-Council, I shall boil' to your decision, and lay that decision before the Cabinet. (Hear, hear.) I do not think it would be practicable for the members of the board to bo elected. The responsibility for the appointment of tho unofficial members must Test with the Government.

Suggested Alterations in the Bill, With regard to tho Provincial Councils, I consider that the number of members that may lie appointed should be up to thirty, in order io allow for the very large and important provinces that, I trust, may be created under the Bill. I think that all local bodies should bo elected on the same day. and for the samo period—namely, three years—as that should bo quite sufficiently frequent for tho public to express its opinion with regard to matters of local government, and also to give continuity of policy and administration. Clauso 13!), which provides for the appointment of a Hospital Committee of the Provincial Council, should be amended s» as lo provide that thoro shall be at least fivo members who aro not members of tho council, and these should-be elected directly by the people 011 tho samo day as tho general election of tho Provincial Council takes place. Clause 151, dealing with education, should lie amended in exactly the same way. Power should bo jfivon to tho I.ocal Government Board to constitute a new county and niter the boundaries 1 of counties now in existence; in. order to secure greater community of interest, and to group counties which desire to bo joined, on the receipt of the necessary petition l'rom the people interested. new county should bo allowed to be created unless it has a capital value of at least ,£200.000 and a population of 2000, these figures being, of course, the minimum that must be left in tho pre-existing county. (Heur, hear.) • i I am not in favour of abolishing ritl-ing9-(licar, hear)-for election purposes -(oil, oh)—but will ask the conference to express au opinion whether it is dosirnblc or not lo continue the system ot riding accounts. Personally. f prefer the county fund and account only. Conclusion. This Bill is not intended as the last word on local government. (Hear, hear.) Tt is a Im'is for di'cmsion of (lie whole question. T trust (hat that disrufsicn will be lint, on mutter' ot detail, but on sencrnl principle'-. Filially, 1 hf.te Ilia, no attempt vrill bo made to con-vler tins

qucslhm from the standpoint of political party, but that wo shall unite in seeking In find a method of lecal government worthy of this conference, and, above nil, worthy of the great country which has been committed to our trusteeship, (Applause.)

GENERAL DISCUSSION. PROVINCIAL COUNCILS CONt)F,MXi;iJ. Mr. A. E. .Tuil (llawko's Bay, chairman of Counties' Association) moved, and Air. W. Maiialister (Southland) seconded, and it was resolved: "That in the opinion of (he conference some measure of local government reform is desirable." A vote of thanks was accorded to tho Minister for Internal Affairs for his address. It was agreed that tho timo limit of speeches be live minutes, and a committee was set; up to prepare the order of business of flic conference. The resolutions adopted at the conferoiieo of Education Board repnv-i'niatsve.i, held on Monday in Wellington, were read. The Hon. 0." AY. Russell said that the Executive Committee had arranged tiint. a general discussion should first lake place with rega.rd to tho general principles of the T.ocol Government: Bill.—This was agreed to. Jlv. F. ITorrcll (North Canterbury) suggested that a division be Inlcen o;> the question of deleting tlio education portion of Iho Bill.

Mr. John Studholmo (Ashburton) • thought tho discussion should include all tho general proposals in the Bill. Tho Hon. G. AV. Russell said tlmt nfler tho general discussion it would lie open to anyone to move tlio deletion of any particular part of the Bill. Mr. 1!. T,oe (chairman of the AVellingfnn Education Board) said there wtw plenty of scope for improvement in the administration of local bodies. lie alluded to tho resolutions passed at the Education Hoards' Conference, and added, that tho feeling of tlio members of that conference was that the Bill, in respect to education, did not in any way satisfy Iho demands for improvement. He thought that, a good deal of money might be saved by (ho merging of many of tho smaller local bodies. The Cities. Mr. C. J. Parr (Mayor of Auckland) said that so far as the large cities wero conccrned there was no demand whatever for the Bill. The cities strongly objected to being incorporated with a huge county or province extending for many scores or even hundreds of miles around tho cities. They strongly objected to provincial liabilities being east on ths> cities. Tho mistake of the Bill, it seemed to him, was that it dealt with two esenfially different problems—the problem of the country and the problem of tho city. The cardinal mistake of the Bill was that it proposed to give the same incdicino to two patients suffering from two different complaints. He understood that the difficulty of thecountrj was that of overlapping. The cities wero moving along very well under the Municipal Corporations Act, He was sure he was expressing the general feeling in the cities when he -said that the people of tho cities viewed the Bill with disfavour. Mr. G. J. Garland (Auckland) did not think that the proposed provincial councils wero required. AVhat was wanted was an extension of the powers of county councils. He suggested that in giving an assured finance to the local bodies lt might be well to devote the land tax and , income tax to that purpose. ~ . ' Sir. H. R. French (AVarkworth) said it seemed to him that the -suggested provincial councils would 1» simply glorified county councils, and that the county councils would be merely glorified road boards. Ho did not think that the suggestion of provincial councils would help matters at all. Dual Control Should Cease, Mr. A. E. .Tuli (Hawke's Bay) thought they would be going backwards if they super-imposed bodies like provincial councils over Hit) pie, sent, local governing bodies. It was almost an axiom amongst local bodies that dual control should cease. It was desirable that they should reduce the number of bodies operating over tho ono area. Many of tho improvements that were desired could be achieved under the local government laws. The question of the franchise of local bodies should be faced. Ho would like to see tho abolition of road boards brought about. Mr. J. Bailey (AVaikato County Council) was of opinion that tho county councils should have greater power, and should bo given sound finance; some of tho I smaller road l>oards should be merged; and the Town Boards Act retained.

Air. E. N. Lifliton (AVanganui) submitted a number of resolutions passed by the Rangitikei County Council, opposing somo of the provisions of the Bill. The Bill was described as being "too revolutionary."

Taking Power from the People. Mr. R. Moore (North Canterbury) had had great difficulty in finding many good points in tho Bill. In many directions tho Bill went in the direction of making tho Minister practically a dictator—in fact, that was the underlying principle of tho Bill. It proposed to take power out of the hands of the local people and place it in the hands of the Minister. At the samo timo it imposed greater responsibilities upon the local bodies. There might have been a littlo overlapping of local bodies. A few of the smaller local bodies might be done away with. There were not very many local bodies that could bo touched. One of the worst features of the Bill was the proposal to abolish our present national education system. He was entirely opposed to placing the education evstem under provincial councils. "Tho Hon. G. AV. Russell drew attention to a remark made by Mr. Monro to the effect that the Bill proposed to abolish tho present national 6ystem of education. In view of- the statement of tho Prima Minister at tho conference that morning, lio asked if Air. Moore's remark was fair or justifiable? (Voices: "No.") Tlio Bill did not cmanato from the present Government, but had been handed down to them bv their predecessors, and had. been placed 'before the council as a basis of discussion.

Provincial Councils Premature. Mr. .1. G. AVilson (Jlanawatu County Council) did not think the time had arrived for a scheme of provincial councils lo be established, as proposed by the Bill. Tho people he represented didaint desire an alteration in tho county franchise. Ho was strongly against hospital districts being included in the Bill. A similar Temarfc might be made with respect to drainago and river boards. Somo road boards might see that it would be to their advantage to mergo in the counties. . , „ . .

Mr. H. Schofield (Auckland Hospital Board) was of opinion that it would be a retrograde step to hand over the work of, hospital and charitable aid boards to provincial councils. Mr. H. Everett (Wainioi County Council) drew attention to sonio of tho disabilities under which counties and country districts now laboured. Wellington City View, Mr. D. M'Laren (Mayor of Wellington) niludod to the great powers proposed to be given to the J.ocal Government Boards, and pointed out that although thoso bodies were intended to be constituted on the lines of the . British Local Government Boards, there was a considerable bodv of opinion in Great Britain opposed to the Local Government, Beard system. It should bo recognised that a distinction existed between small boroughs and largo boroughs, seeing that the i-ntio of co-t of management to revenue was varied vow greatly. He held that it was desirable to leave tho cilifis out of the Bill, because of the many and complex functions they already had to perform. The suggested change would mean im-po-in" ail exceedingly heavy burden on Wellington City, seeing that tho rating was based on the capital value. The capital value of Wellington City was .£17,000,000, whereas that of the whole of the counties in the provincial district was only ,£10,!i00,000. He did not wish to condemn the whole Bill. He believed' that some good might be done bv the amalgamation of some of tho minor local bodies, ami by increasing the powers of county councils, but maintained that, it was not desirable to go back on wliat; had been the trend of modern local government with respect to cities, which was to provide them with special legislation with which to deal with their own various special problems. Mr. F. W. Venn Olorowhenua County Council) said the people in his district, did not believe in the establishment nf -the suggested local government, board*. Tt would simply mean further expense in .vlminiftration. The system of iuti«idi« , for hospital and charitable aid should

he abolished, am! tho Government should lako over Iho administration. Instead of grants in aid, land Hint was lieing opened up .should first be remled. Mr. It. Hvans (North Canterbury; was of* opinion that the nearer they kepi the supervision to their own doors the better would be the administration and tlio work done. .Mr. Dalziel (North Canterbury Ldnca; tioii Board) spoko generally in Mippurtof tile lf'-ol u I ions adopted at, Iho recent conference of Kducalion Hoard".

Mr. J. Fisher (Waipa County Council) favoured the continuance of the present system of local government, but with Modifications to make it mors* workable, lie did not: think the provincial council would be of any great value. It would be a mistake, in his opinion, to abolish town districts and road district*, lie opposed pulling Hie management, of important harbour works like those of Auckland under the bodies proposed to bo constituted under the Bill. .Mr. .1. Trevor (Wellington Hospital Board) drew attention to the good work dune by hospital boards, and tho jp'eat amount of timo that the members of Iho boards devoted to their duties. lie doubled whether the chango contemplated in the Hill would Ixi any improvement on tem of election of members of hospital and charitable aid was concerned. Unnecessary Bodies. Mr. .T. A. Nash (i'aimcrston North) was of opinion that provincial councils were <1 iiil« unnecessary. Ho thought that everything was t-roing on very well tit tho pre.-ent tune —Willi, of course, a few exceptions. ilo condemned the present system of election ol' mvmbrs of hospital and charitable aid Iwariis.

Mr. l'\ llorrcll (North Canterbury) favoured Iho, main roads and bridges being constructed and by tho genonl government. Ho was of opinion that boroughs nmd counties should carry out tho work within their own boundaries. No provision for assured finance for the local bodies was made in the Bill. If tho Government maintained the main roads and bridges, the counties would )ms relieved of great expense, and could do with smaller subsidies. He was sure that tho Bill as submit'ed would not be acceptable to the delegates. Mr. J. AVilson (Dunedin) said, with respect to town-planning, ho favoured a system being instituted under which within a distance of from three to sis miles from tho centre of tho larger towns, tlio cutting up of land should be under the control of the Government or local board to this extent: That any subdivision of land must have the approval of ono of tho authorities ho had indicated.

Mr. C. .T. Harley (Nelson) would leave tho larger harbour boards alone; but. tho smaller ones ho would mergo in tho counties. Although lie did not approve of some of the minor local lxulics, still it must be remembered that in many cases they did useful work.

Mr. AV- S. Maslin (South Canterbury) did not think that the members of tho confcrenco realised the taxing powers embodied in the Bill—taxing powers of a confiscatory character. It meant increasing the possibility of local taxation by at least ICQ per cent. He thought tho outcome of the conference would be that the county system 'would lie tho system most approved of, that education, hospital and charitable aid boards, and harbour boards (except in a fow cases) would be allowed to continue to manage their ow : n affairs, and that town districts would either have to become boroughs or bo merged into counties. Ths conference will resume at 10 a.m. to-day.