A LOAN OF 1909.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1377, 1 March 1912, Page 8

A LOAN OF 1909.

BELATED INFORMATION. PREMIER QUESTIONED. A VERY AXCIEXT LETTER. The I'rinie Minister read lo the House and laid on the table yesterday afternoon a letter from the High Commissioner in reference to the .0,850,000 loan of 100!). The High Commissioner stated that the' full amount authorised to be raised had been effected by the sale of ,EGG,39O 3} per cent slock in addition to the .£1,830,000 debentures under the loan prospectus making a total. of debentures and stock issued. The total receipts amounted to iil,BSo,ooo, and the expenses to .£37,108, leaving tho net proceeds of .£1,850,000 as authorised after deducting all expenses, but without taking into consideration the increased indebtedness caused by conversions into stock of the scrip and debentures issued under the loan and which was at the time, of writing still proceeding or of any expenses incurred in the Dominion, the net result of the loan was stated to be JE9O 10s. Bd. per JUOO debenture of stock issued.

A Pertinent Question, Mr. Eraser (Wakatipu): What about the discount ? The Prime Minister: It is all there. He added that the law authorised tile issue of svifficient stock to cover the discount so that tlie full amount of the loan authorised would be realised. ■> Mr. Eraser asked whether the expenses included discount. The Hon. T. Mackenzie: Discount is not expenses? Mr. Fraser: Oh, is it not? The point is whether allowance is made for the discount in calculating the net result of &% 10s. Mr. W. H. Hemes (Tauranga) emphasised the point of the question, anil added an inquiry why the information had been delayed so long. The Prime Minister: It could not have been laid on the table until the end of last session in any case. Mr. Herries: The loan was authorised in 1009 and this is 1912. The Prime Minister: The same old story. Where Has it Been? Mr. Allen said, so far as he could ascertain, the discount which apparently amounted to ,£29,262 was not included in the loan agent's account. On April H, 1910, ,£1,822,250 were paid into tho Bank of England account, and the final transaction occurred on September 15, 1010. What lie wanted to know was, why this information had not been given before. "Oh! , ' exclaimed Mr. Allen, "I did not notice this before. The letter is dated September 16, 1910. the day after the loan was completed. Where, has it been in the meantime?" Mr. Allen said he was quite justified, in view of the, fact, in'charging tho Government with treating the House and the country with indifference. The Prime Minister: You are misrepresenting the whole position, as usual. Mr. Allen: In what way? The Prime Minister: Is "there anything in that velurn to which you can take exception. (Opposition laughter.) Mr. Allen: I am bound to say that I consider that the loan is a very costly one. In 1804, he continued, we 'could raise lpiins without underwriting, but now we could not do that. He also instanced loans that, had in tho past been raised free of brokerage. Ho asked the Premier to be perfectly honest, and tell .tho House why the information had not been given before, seeing that the letter was dated September, l!? 10?

Sir Joseph Ward objected to Mr. Allen's remark about being honest. If ho was allowed to use that language,, he (Sir Joseph) would have the right to talk of him (Mr. Allen) as perfectly dishonest. The. Speaker said that if one member used language that was out of order, that was no justification for another lion, mem- ; er using language that was against the Standing Orders. He, however, did not understand Mr. Allen to use the words in that way. H« understood Mr. Allen to have- asked "if the Premier would lie honest and tell the House." (Hear, hear) lie (tho Speaker) did not think Mr. Allen had transgressed tho rule*. Sir .Joseph Ward (sharply): Very well, then, Sir, I know how to speak of him now. Mr. Fisher said that (he letter had not only been held up during the session of 11)10, but during the whole of the session of 11)11, although notices and returns affecting the loan were before the House. Now, for some unaccountable reason, it was laid before the House. Tho Prime Minister should explain where the letter had been for the last fourteen" months; Dr. Newman said that tho days when the Dominion could borrow money at 3.', per cent, were done. It would be "a wiser policy to offer i per cent., because, when the lowor rate was offered, discounts nnd charges more than accounted for the difference. It was far better to offer 4 per cent, and have a loan floated at part than to go in for these intricate and costly arrangements. Mr. Fraser was proceading iq discuss the cost of raising the five million loan, when the Prime Minister protested that this was a matter not before the House. Ho declared that he was being misrepresented in regard to a loan of .£1,850,000, and claimed that discussion should be confined to this loan. .Mr. Fraser said that the actual cost of the loan was .£60,390. The people of the Dominion had a right to know what loans really cost, and not to he put off with a garbled statement about it.

Prime Minister Angry, | Sir Joseph Ward retorted iij an angry tono that the garbled statements were made by the gentlemen opposite, and they had been doiii" so since 181)5. He went on to refer to Mr. Allen's utterance on the subject of a three per cent, loan raised in 1895. Mr. Allen said the Prime Minister was a first-class, up-to-date "phonograph," because in ISi)5 ho had severely criticised a loan which he now eulogised up to the skies. In his subsequent remarks he described Mr. Allen as a "Cassandra in trousers," and saul that the member for Bruce knew as much about floating a loan as his- boot did. During the previous session the House had given authority to raise loans on the London market. Not one of these had been raised yet. He asked memberj to imagine anyone saying the House gave authority to raise these loans on a certain date, why is not the information relating to the loan before the House. The member for Tauranga had said that the loan was authorised in 190J), ignoring tho fact that its flotation had been delayed for a considerable period until the market was favourable. Mr. Herries: Yon raised temporary debentures. Sir Joseph Ward: Well, I wonder who is delivering this speech. The lion, member had spoken of the loan being floated when in fact they were waiting for the market. Mr. Herries: I said it was flouted in 1910. Sir Joseph Ward, offer some further references to temporary advances, said that he supposed the member for WVkatipn would contradict him next. 1 Mr. Vrase;-: It depends on what you say. (Laughter.) The Prime Minister: Docs the lion, gentleman try to «iy that discount upon n loan is part of the cxpen.-e of raisin? a loan? Mr. T'raspr: Of course it is. The Prime Minister challenged Mr. Traser to show that discount was included in tho cost of a hum by any country in the world.

■."In My Own Way." After Mimf further digressions tlic T'riinn Minister was reminded by Mr. Vislier th.tt lie had not yet answered tile questions put to hiiu. The Prime Minister: 1 am going to do tilings in my own way. The hon. member is rather good at trying to find thing?, and sometimes doesn't lind them. He went on to remark that he had looked up the records and had discovered that; very few of those who had in the past controlled the financial operations of iS'ew Zealand had given a ((inrter of the information that he had given. the ordinary course of things, if this letter had come to him lie would have laid it on the table of the Mouse on the day after lie received it. Hut it never had come before him. Now that the letter was here it was all in his favour. Mr. .Fisher: To whom, is it addressed? The I'rime Minister: To the Ministir for Fiuauca.

Mr. Fisher: Who received it? • The .Prime Minister: It was received by vhu Treasury in thp ordinary way. Scores of letters addressed officially wove o])cned ill the Department. Jle was not in tho habit of Inying , letters on financial matters before tho House. Mi , , Allen: That is our trouble. The Prime Minister reiterated that the contents of the lcttsv wove entirely satisfactory. Anyone conducting the financial affairs of the Dominion was bound to observe for a considerable, time a great deal of secrecy —anyone making premature disclosures would- get the country into a mess. Mr. Fisher, asking some further f)ue:--tious about the loiter, was informed by the Prime Minister tlr.it he must not catechise him. He had better try it on tho members of the now party ho was trying to reform. .Mr. Visiter: First I have heard of it. Sir Joseph Ward: It is not tho first I have heard of it. Mr. Fisher's Position, Mr.. Fisher took an early opportunity of denying the statement. He challenged Sir Joseph Ward to give him the name of. any member in the House, that he had approached. He objected to the suggestion, because it implied that lie was disloyal. In makiug such statements, the right lion, gentleman was guilty of more innuendo than the other 78 members of tho House put together.