PRIVILEGE QUESTIONS.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1375, 28 February 1912, Page 6

PRIVILEGE QUESTIONS.

AN OPEN INQUIRY.

SLOW PROQRESS YESTERDAY.

SOME EMPHATIC DENIALS.

PRIME MINISTER A WITNESS.

Tho Committeo sot up by tho House of Representatives to consider questions of privilege raisod in a debate on Friday last, when statements were mado about an' alleged offer of money to the member for Grey Lynn to influence his vote, and about an alleged attempt to "square" the samo mombcr, sat publicly yesterday forenoon to hear evidence. All tho membori of the Committeo were present, namely, Messrs. J. Hanan (chairman), W. Eraser, W. Nosworlhy, Jns. Alien, G. M. Thornson, J. Robertson, W. A. Voitch, G. W. Russell, E. P. Lee, V. H. Reed, and the Hon. J. A. Millar. Other members of Parliament who attended were tho Prima Minister (Sir Joseph Ward), the Leadoi of the Opposition (Mr. W. 1)\ Massey), and Messrs. J. Payne, J. Vigor Brown,, F. M. B. Fisher, T. W. Rhodes, E. H. Clarko, D. H. Guthrie, W. J. Dickie, G. Witty, and R. W. Smith. Mr. M. Myers, and Mr. Cha-s. M'Masfcer, of Auokland (whose name figured prominently in Friday's dedate), wero also present. Opening tho proceedings, the ohairaon announced that it had been decidod to proceed with tho first order of reference, and asked Mr. Massey whether he appeared by counsel. Mr. Massey stated that it was only by chance that ho had learned that morning that counsel would be allowed, and he had had no opportunity of instructing his counsel. Mr. Myers said he, should like to hav« an opportunity to confer with Mr. Massey. Mr. Payno: I also desire to be reptosented by counsel.

An Adjournment Demanded, Mr. Myers asked for an adjournment until Thursday morning, and a lengthy discussion followed upon this roqa-Aii Mr, Russell asked whether the committee would not ceaso to exist 'immediately tho Houso was prorogued, and ho submitted that there was no reaßon why the evidence should not be taken at once, as it was merely a.matter nf producinj tho original letter or tho author of it. After further discussion, Mr. Ix». who remarked that it was upon his motion that the committee had decided to admit counsel, moved that tho committeo should' adjourn till the following morning. Having decided that counsel should bo allowed to open thoir cases, tho committee must allow them opportunity to prepare present, ind he also desired the assist anco of counsel in defending the char;., against himself. The solicitor whom Mr JPMaster had engaged could not attend until the following day, as he was *tpre«nt engaged in tho Supreme Court, so that itwiuld be unfar to Mr. plaster if the committee decided to proceed. Mr. Russell again asked whet icr the committee would cease to, exist when th« House completed t.s business.' Mr' IS' Sum" nf "MMonable map thinks complete its business to-day or to-morrow. I do not. fho Prims Minister: Personally,.! do. Mr Millar then moved that subjwtto the consent of the House the commute* should adjourn till 3 p.m.

Mr. Mastey'i Retraction. Sir Joseph Ward said he was not, rej 4„VKr pminscl. and d d not intend. ?nTe LferrTng to too statement made ""SMpJi. I« Si. J«»Pl> *>«> »™*' l mcr s of the ca* sWd not bo gone into upon a question of adionrnment, chairman agreed, and the Prim* Master added that as lie was not accustoraed to bo telcrrupted, ho would not Pr M f d MSy aS the Commit*, ft cousilUr tho ?3 positio,i in which .ho would ho nliiced if « decided to sit in the oftPrnooii 1 verv speaker in tho uo-confi-clence deba e referred to him pcrsonally,.so ff it would hardly bo fair to r.eqmro him to leave the House in such circum, S Mr° Reed said, that he had overlooked this aspect of the matter, and therefore CO ,ld not support the amendment, Tho Prime Minister suggested that a« wraMoment should be made between himSira *o Leader of tho Opwntion that when tho House met it should adjourn until the evening, so that there would bo no obstaolo.in tho way of th« 'Committee meeting in the afternoon.. Mr Mvers: I know why I am asking for an adjournment till to-morrow morn, he. I cannot tell you more than I have ho and therefore l,« nsked for a full day's adjournment. Tl pos'ible that if the Committee, adiourned till tho next morning, he might i .» fn Ink for a further adjournment '; e t ,e° evening. It was possible that h" might not be prepared to go on m th M r W Ve n itch suggested that the Commit, too proposed to deprive counsel of full opportunity to defend his client. Con"ideratioun of justice must be placed iirst.

Wasting the Country's Time. When the chairman proposed to put tho amendment, Mr. Myers remarked that, the proposal was quite useless, and would make a fiasco of tho who lo proceeding. The Committee miglitas we] go on as waste the time of the country by postponing Parliament, for ho would be in-exactly tho same position at three o clock as at P mT Millar retorted that Mr., Myers had no vieht to reflect unon Parliament. He' was there to renrejenl Mr. Mosscy, and so Jon* n« h* eoj,f,,ed us, r-mwta >ir M-«"v it wniim Ik- all right. Tho motion was carried by six votes to "Mr Brown =aid that he hail Te'e'ned counsel, 'nit nf,,,r Mr Mawvs npnlogr be had asked his c»tin»l to withdraw. He accented that apology. The Committee imw .WiWilod-for a time in privale. When it resumed m one,, ...oe«o* *lm that it purposed proceeding with l'nra-eranh-1 of the second order of a statement by V» Massey m the House, which reads as follows :- "Tlicn ho said soinothing about whether ho was supposed to have been Bquared and I said: 'What was stated in Auckland at the present moment was this, that he had been squared bv Mr Vigor Brown and Sir Joseph W-vrd at Napier." Now that was the statement that was mado quite openly in Auckland, I think Mr. Payne bad begun to see tho serious position ho proposed to tako up and ho said: Must let mo think this over'."

Amply WithdrawnMr. Mvcrs said that Mr. Massey hod already • fully and amply withdrawn this statement lie did not propose to do anr mote than .put in Mr. Mnssey's statement. At this stage Mr. Bavn« entered, ae. oompauied by Mr, C, P. Skerret(. Mr,

oWrett as his counsel. '. client -t^\ r T aM ' on he}iM of his MhhinS*' ,f «*?■* ffas ™* suggestion Ri ? ,W«f d *\ a Paragraph under conadded h,\ u llad beou withdrawn and ««*■« I i ho P ro Poswl to put Mr. Mas?ln„ „ atein^t ou tll9 subject in tho ±101=0 on record. tl,„.i chair " l ati asked Mr. Myers -whetner he could produce any evidence, documentary or otherwise, which would assist ff committee in determining whether the JH«ged charge that Mr. Pavno had been squared,' had any foundation in fact. ;Ur. Myers suggested that Mr. Massey might bo allowed to briefly address the committee. He had already made a statement in tho House and no charge had been made against Mr. Payne. To a further question by tho chairman Mr. Myers said, that.he had no evidence to lead in regard to tho paragraph under review. It was not suggested that the charge had any foundation. What he wanted to mnko quite clear was that Mr. Massey had. made no charge that Mr Payno had been squared. Mr. Skerrett said that his client did not accept Mr. Myers's interpretation of tho word "squared," in this paragraph. Ho regarded it as opprobrious and connoting somo improper bribery or corrupt influence eicrcised by. Mr. Vigor Brown and Sir Joseph Ward at Napier. Again answering the chairman, Mr. Myers reiterated that ho ,had. no evidence to .lead in this charge. Ho did not suggest that it had any foundation in fact. : Mr, Skerrett said that Mr. Payno felt bound to accept unreservedly the retraction and, apology, which Mr. Massey had made, but desired un opportunity o'f stating to tho committee that there "was not a word of truth in tho charge, I

No Charge Made. Mr. Massey. now volunteered a. brief statement, remarking that he had made no; charge against Mr. Payne, but had ■ made tho statement in reference to the alleged "squaring" in answer to a question by Mr. Payno. Tho word squared .was first used by Mr. Payno himself. At a suggestion from Mr. Russell, Mr. Massey was sworn. •Mr. Skerrett said it seemed to him to" be quite unimportant whether Mr. Massey had made a'charge or.had merely given utterance to' some Tumour or statement made to him. But he wished to point out that it w<ie too late for Mr. Massey to now attempt to whittle away, excuse, or palliate the statement. He aubmitted that the meaning of the charge was ■entirely'a question for tho committee to determine.

:Mr. Myers said that the position was quite plain. What Mr. Massey said was that lie had made no charge and madenb charge now. If these words were to be Mad .as a charge he had never 'made it, end did not make it.

Mr. Massey was debarred from explaining to the Committee "what was said in Auckland, and the meaning of it." ' One point he had desired to make, he said, when he was interrupted, as ho thought unfairly, by Mr. Skerrett, was that no suggestion was made at the time about any money having passed between Mr. Vigor Brown and Mr. Payne, or Sir Joseph "Ward and Mr. Payne. Mr. Skerrett stated that he bad no desire to make matters unpleasant for Mr. Massey, but he objected to Mr. Massey construing for himself the meaning ff ■words which he had used. He asked permission to call his client, in order to dhow.that there was not a word of truth in tho 'charge contained in the statement. ■ v ' -•■■'-.•

Mr. Payne's Evidence, Mr.' Payne was now sworn and examined by his counsel. He stated that there vas not a word of truth in the suggestion that h'c bad been '"squared," at Napier, 'by' Sir Joseph Ward and Mr. Vigor Brown, or by either of them. Ho .saw both .'Sir Joseph Ward and Mr. Vigor Brown at Napier, but did not discuss the political situation with either or both of them. Not a single word was .said on the subject.

«, The Hon. J. A. Millar: Have you at any time been approached by Ministers, asking you to change your vote?— No. ■Neither directly .nor (.indirectly?—Neither' directly nor. . \ 'Mr. Lee:, Have.you at any .time told any that there had been any offer to square ; 'you?—Yes. ". . ' •Who-did-you.tell?—l told Tlr. Massey in bis'office in this building. '"' Anyone else Dickson was present. 'Anyone-else?—No one else.

What offer were you referring to when you said you were supposed to havo been did notmako that remark. What did you say?— Mr. Massey said to mo that I was supposed to have' been "squared" by Sir Joseph Ward and Mr. Yicor Browu nt'Napier.

But before Mr. Massey said that, did you tell him that you were supposed to have been squared?— No. ' You had beard nothing up to thajt time about yoilr being squared in any way?— Yes. I had.

What" did you hear?—l heard that rumour up in Auckland. Who did you hear it from?— Mr. Payne named his chairman of committees and another" person. "I told them what I had been told by Mr.' M'Master," he added, "that he was authorised to give me .£3OO or '-£1000 to vote for tho Ward Administration. Th«n they said that it was a rumour in tho town that. I had been 'squared.' " The date cf this conversation, Mr. Payne stated, was February 9.

■Mr. Veitch asked whether there was anv connection between the'suggestion tha"t Mr. Payuo should accept a certain sum of money' and the rumour that ho bad been "squared'- at Napier. llr. Payno replied in tho negative, and mentioned a letter to Mr. M'Master, from another person, who stated that he was willing to give .£loo' to Mr. M'Master's nominee. When Mr. Masscy suggested that it: was Mr. Vigor Brown by whom ho was supposed to have- been "squared" he replied, "No, you are miles out."

An Interview at Wellington. To Mr. Hanan: Ho did not go to. Mr.' Massey of his own accord. Mr. Dickson camo to him, said that Mr. Massey wanted to seo hiiii. and took him along to Mr: Massey's' offico in "Parliament Buildings! The only other person present at the interview besides himself, .Messrs; 'Massey and Dickson, was Mr. Guthrie, who left almost immediately. Mr. Mussey showed ■him abetter signed, he believed, by.'Mr. Maurice O'Connor, telling Mr. M'Master that he was willing tn give .£IOO to tho latter's nominee. This letter was produced by Mr. Massey and shown to witness, who "roughly glanced over it." He could not swear to the dato or signature, but thought that it was signed by Mr. Maurice O'Connor.' Mr. Myers said that witness was apparently relerriiig to a letter written bv Mr. Maurice U Connor to Mr. M'Mastef in' wmcti something was said about the «' Ar.-?r c * ln £ .Prepared 'to givo .£IOO to Mr. M Master s nonhueo in a fresh dection. Mr. Hanan said he wanted to know what took place at the meeting (between Messrs Mossey and-Pavne). Mr. Eraser submitted that this ques■lion could not be .asked, becau<o it inrolyed matters which the Committeo had decided to postpone consideration of until the morrow. The question referred to tho second paragraph in the second order of reference, and to tho whole of the first order of reference. , Mr. Allen supported th 's contention, and Mr. Skerrett, as counsel for Mr. Payne adopted the same attitude. . "

Offer Nol Taken Seriously, Mr. Skerrett said that there was one question which he desired to put in fairness to his client'. "You have said " ho remarked to Mr. Payne, that you tol'd Mr. Mnssey.in his room, at Wellington that something in the nature of an offer had been made to you if you would go in the direction of tho Ward Government. I only want you 'to answer this question Ves" or "Ko." Was the suggestion made under circumstances which would entitle you to take the suggestion seriously?— So. Sir Joseph Ward: Yon have already Ftnted that no conversation took place between yourself and myself at Xapicr regarding the political situation or between Vigor Hrown and yourself, with me or .eparately. on that question. Do you Know anything about the letter, extracts from which were rend by .Mr. Massey in the House, in which these words occur, "lie now assnres me that Payne' has been squared?"—l don't know anything about it. Mr. Myers pointed out that this referred to another charge than the one before the Committee, and the objection was upheld. Answering another question by the Prime Minister Mr. Payne denied again that Mr. Massev had mentioned, in Auckland, an alleged offer of moiicy to hiin-

self (Mr. Payne). This matter was mentioned once, and onco only. Tho Prime Minister: Had yon any reason tq believe that tho offer emanated from myself or from anybody connected with tho .Government?—"\o.' ; Mr. Brown: I would like to ask whether I over, directly or indirectly, made any suggestion, in connection with anything as to how yon should vote?—"Xo." Mr. Myers remarked that he hoped to cross-esamino tho witness on the following day. Prime Minister's Statement. Sir Joseph Ward was now called as a witness and. sworn. He described himself as a merchant residing in Wellington. '•I wish to. say," he remarked, "that I have not at any time, directly or indirectly, for myself'or through any other person, ever offered to square a limn, in my life, in connection with the politics of this country, and that the suggested rumour emanating from Xupier, in a letter, is absolutely untrue. What I am anxious to do is to find out who started tho rumour so that we may get tho person on his oath here, as a matter of fairness _to myself and others." When at wapier he had not discussed the political situation with Mr. Payne and he had asked Mr. Drown, before tho latter introduced Mr. Payne, not to expect hint to discuss the poStical situation. He looked upon tho rumour as one of many of n dastardly nature, which were circulated about public men.

Mr. Brown Emphatic, Mr. Brown was next sworn and said that tho statement made by the Leader of the Opposition in the House (tho paragraph under review) was absolutely false. He had never, at any time made any offer, directly or indirectly, by innuendo or in any other way possible. Mr. Allen remarked that this was not quite tho statement, made. Mr. Brown then read the statement and gave it an emphatic denial. At the suggestion of Mr. Russell, Mr. Brown asked that Mr. Massey's statement in the House on Monday evening should be put on record as part of his evidence. Mr. Russell:.You swear that you neither had any .conversation with Mr. Payne, nor produced any document, nor did anything, or'said anything, that coijld contain an\ offer, on your part to influence his vote?—"l never dreamt of it or hinted at it in any way whatever."

The Scope of Inquiry, Mr. Reed asked Mr, Massey who made the statements in Auckland which he had'attributed to rumour. In a discussion which followed, several members held that the f|uestion should not be allowed on the ground that the order of reference instructed tho committee to report as to whether "words used in the House" constituted a, breach of privilege. Mr. Myers contended that the committee should not be used as a .means of enabling one person to bring a slander action against another. The committee considered the point, sitting in camera. Oh resuming, the chairman stated that it had been decided not to ask Mr, Massey by whqm the statement had been made. At 1.15 p.m., the committee- adjourned until 10.30 a.m.- tp-day, when the inquiry will proceed.'

Extension of I Time. In the House last night Mr. Hanan applied for an extension of time of three days upon the period of threo days' originally granted" to the committee in which to complete its work and report. The application -was granted. The committee is n'oiv entitled to sit until Friday, but is expected to complete its labours by .