HON. G. FOWLDS.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1342, 20 January 1912, Page 5

HON. G. FOWLDS.

OUTRIGHT FOR ABOLITION. HIS REASONS WHY. The, next witness called was the Hon. Geo. Foirlds, ate Minister far Education, lie stilted that the first legislation legalising the totalisator in Kw Zealand was passed in.1681. lie arrived in tho country in 1805. At that time the subject of gambling was being keenly discussed, i'lio idea ho gained at the time was that tho mtrouucliim of the machine had not greatly affected the . volume of bolting with bookmakers. 01(1 luibitiies of the turt looked upon totalisator betting as a sort of "baby sport," ami a very largo amount of betting was still dono with bookmakers, tip till recent years when further legislation was brought up fetlilg with the bookmakers. No official record existed of the amount of tdtalisator belting " prior ' to 18'Jl, when the Government first began to, take a percentage of the amount going over the machine. From the tinie when the Government began to participate in tho profits tho volume ol* totalisator betting began to increase more rapidly. I a the year ending March 31, ISD2, the totalisator betting per lieAd amounted to 15s. lljd. Four years later it had increased to £1 Is. ,3d. per head. Eonr years later (ill 1900) the amount of totalisator betting per head Ijad increased to .£1 Bs. 2d. In 1904, the amount had risen to ,£1 12s. 7Jd., and in 1908 to *£2 3s lid. per head. This brought them down to the first year under the new legislation, which th« racing clubs interpreted as entailing the compulsory licensing of bookmakers. The legislation was not really intended by Parliament to have this effect, but tho clubs practically registered everybody. For tho first time in about seventeen ot eighteen years tho amount invested in the totalisator dropped down, by about .£165,000. This was the position at March 31, 1909, at the ond of the first full year with bookmakers on the courses. Although bookmakers weri> still in tho same position in the following year the total amount invested on the totalisator increased by slightly over ,£200,000, so that it more than recovered its previous volume. The year ended on March 31, 1911, was (ho first, in which the reduced number of racing days had liegun to operate. As a result of this legislation the number of racing days was reduced from 323 to 287. The totalisator investments this year dropped again bv .£100,003 from the year beiore, when the investments had increased by .£'200,000. The betting per head in the year ended March, 1910,, amounted to .£2 Is. 3ld. In the following vear the betting per head amounted to il 15s. 10! d. These figures showed tlic general trend during tho whole of the time indicated. It was questionable whether there had been at any time a very serious variation in the amount of hotting with bookmakers. A great agitation had arisen in tho country against the increase of gambling. Coincidontly tho agitation had .been nearly as strong against the totalisator. His own opinion was that, at tho present timo, it a vote of the people were taken in New Zealand, and the totalisator would go. This opinion was also entertained by a number of members of Jockey Clubs. Tho totalisator in New Zealand had practically created its o\vn clientele. It had made betting more respectable, and had very largely, increased tho total amount. It had made it easier for peoplo to bet without going to the racecourse or to any recognised centre of gambling. There had been a very large number of defalcations, especially by young peoplo who had gambled without (heir employers having any opportunity at all of even suspecting that their employees were gafnbling. In particular the totalisator encouraged betting by women. Gambling a Social Hurt. Answering questions, Mr. Fowlcls said that, assuming that the gambling evil was bound to continue, ho considered that it would be unwise to in any way extend the area of gambling. Othcrwiso tho logical thing would bo to removo all restrictions, lto looked upon gambling as a social hurt. Therefore* anything that increased tho facilities for was in the wrong direction; The totalisator did this. He could not. point to any specific evldenco showing that a popular vote was likely lo favour the abolition Of the totalisator. The increasing vote hgdiust it in Parliament might be taken as all indication; He was opposed lo gambling, and woiild be glad to see the totalisator abolished and a pretty strict regulation of all other forms of betting. He did not think that tile Government as a Government had assumed any specific attitude towards racing. It had actcd as an impassive looker-on. Mr. Peters: Don't you, as a social reforiiier, consider that the evil of credit betting is so great as to justify Parliament in introducing the totalisator? Mr. Fowlds replied that if the totalisator would eliminate credit betting theie might be something in the suggestion, but his impression was that thero hiid been no material reduction in the volume of bookmakers' betting as a result of the introduction of ttie totalisator. Tho machibo extended the area of betting without materially reducing it in other forms. Mr. Voters remarked that the police complained of the difficulty of securing convictions. Would it not lie possible for the Legislaturn lo lighten their burdens? Mr. Fowlds stated that tho latest reports of the Police Department seomcd to lndicnt* thit £h« legislation of 1910 had]

vory materially strengthened their hands in dealing with the worst evils, lie had not heard prominence given to any domand -by the polico for furlhor legislation. ' '1 he matter had not been widely discussed at unyrate. ",l Would Adopt the Bookmaker." Tho chairman: Supposing you had to adopt the bookmaker or tho totalisalor, which would you adopt? Mr. l'owlds: Jf I had a clean slate I would, without any hesitation, adopt the bookmaker, for the reason that less revenue would find its way into the funds of tho racing clubs, and, to that extent, the machine is a greater promoter of racing and race meetings than tho bookmaker. The chairman: Why, during nil your term ol office, did you hot introduce legislation to abolish both? Yon allowed tlio evil to continue and absolutely legalised it. Why didn't you abolish it in the moral interests of tho people? llr. Fow Ids: Tho answer to that is, boeause wo have never'had a Government the majority of whom held tho tamo views on the question.. 'Ihe chairman: That's just it. I knew Clioro was something. Mi. Fmvlds was thanked for his oviadjoXd „nlU d a^m? nd con,mi ® 6 » A Small Investor. ■The next witness did not arrive until bnrt f 1 °' Cl ° Ck '- ,' J ' llis ,ras Mr ' «»• bell Cameron, a resident of Wollinclon r / r f H u "iilly attended .ice-iuLetings and indulged iu speculation he InH II ? ' i di(l , not tllink to totalisator had a beneficial effect St 1 ? cm, ; i ,mluit - v M " whole. On account of tho enormous dividends it .sometimes paid, it offered biff inducements to bet. He had frl fj ient y been requested by women to k'ltv.'V'i' a ""9i,V p 1,10 am<,u,lt of llin cnl ■ ticket. Often it seemed that tho .sole inducement leading them to speculate was the big p T i C 9 otl'ere-1. 15y nhJITJ'- i iiml , ' < *' t ' on< ' '''"'lends the to. M ls.itoi induced many people to bet who otherwise would refrain! In his opinion the totalisalor had not hn improvement in the breed of horn; lor some years past the tendency had sub"l ih,t" < m i l ?"? distan ™ events and substitute hhort distance races. Racintr K-iinbli ng, said Mr. Campron, must go lo„aiier. In his opinion, machine gambling was rather worse than betting with bookmakers. He considered that tlio existence oi the. totalisator was detrimental to working men. j'"i <3 ?V!' !,I l ?' '" s c vid«nco, Mr. C'ameion slated that he saw a horse running in the I.psom High Weight Handicap at UHislchurch on Aovembtfr ti, 1911, "run" up at lei 1 the race had started " I to; chairman: Well, that was a direct swindle, a direct robbery of the peoplo. Witness said that the matter might 1m capable ol 'some explanation. lie had drawn bis own inference at tho time. . I\o additional evidence being forthcoming, the commission adjourned. The prosident announced that it would, sit next in Umstchurcli, unless it should bo possible to secure tlis attendance of Mr. R. J. Mason, in which event a special meeting would bo held to-hoar his evidence. Ihe members of the commission will attend the rrentham rate meeting to-day, and on Monday, in order to observe tho working of the totalisator and other matters of interest relating to their inquiry. On Monday evening they will leave for Christohurch, and on Januarv 29 they will leavo tho Bluff for Melbourne.