ROADS AND BRIDGES VOTES.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1264, 20 October 1911, Page 6

ROADS AND BRIDGES VOTES.

STRONG OPPOSITION CRITICISM. MINISTERS IN DEFENCE. Th© House went into Committee of Supply on the Public -Works Estimates shortly before the 5.30 adjournment. Mr. A. L. HERJDMAN (Wellington North) moved: That the first item—salary of UnderSecretary, XBso—be reduced by ,£lO, as an indication that legislation should be introduced to abolish the pernicious system of constructing roads and bridges out of votes on tho Estimates which are entirely dependent on the will and pleasure of Ministers of tho Crown. In moving as above, Mr. Hordman said that the object of expenditure on public works should be to open up and develop t.ho country, but as soon as an ejection was about to come round large sums of moneys were put on the Estimates, the object being undoubtedly to influence tho electors in favour of the Government. This farce was gone through every three years, in order to placate the electors, and the large sums of moneys voted by the House were never spent. Last year ,C2,99G,000 was voted to bo spent in different localities, but only .61,892,000 was spent. What was tho use of the House voting the money if the Government did not moan to spend it? Tho Premier: That is not correct. You don't understand it. Mr.. Herdman: I prefer to take the figures given in tho Statement and Estimates. The sums placed on tho Public Works Estimates just before an election wore usually large, and when Ministers were again secure in their places much of tho money was left unspent. Ho commended the system of the Development Board lately introduced in England, with tho concurrence of both political parties there, for the purpose of removing such expenditure from political control.. Another plan would be to extend the powers of the local bodies to carry out road works. At present he was suro that much of the money spent under Government supervision was as much wasted as if it was thrown into tho sea. Trying to Get the Money Spent. The PRIME MINISTER" said tho Public Works Department circularised tho local bodies as promptly as possible, adrising thorn of the amounts to be voted. This was done in order to secure that as much of the money as possible was spent by the local bodies. The local authorities had to carry on until September, as tho loan authorities wero not usually available until September. It was now October, and tho Loan Bill was only just passed, «nd the local authorities. Jma

'from March 31 to now to contimio expending last year's votes, whereas tho Estimates showed tho position as at March 31. Mr. Buxton: They know that all right. Mr. Allen: We know a great deal more than that. Sir Joseph Ward added that tho Public Works Department did all it could to get voles spent, but unless the local bodies did what was impossible, the same coinplaints would no doubt bo mado again next year. The Hon. T. Y. DUNCAN (Oamaru) said the non-expenditure of money voted was largely the fault of the local bodies. Tho PRIME MINISTER quoted tho instance of ono North Island local body which had about .£O7OO unspent at March 3l_ out of last year's votes, and had applied te have tho items reinstated, and this had been done. They had had authority at tho earliest possible date from tlio Department to spend tho money, but had not been able to spend it before March 31. Under such circumstances it was absurd to say that the Government had broken promises. He read a circular of which ho said ISOO copies had been sent to local bodies in connection with the current Estimates. Tho circular intimated to each local authority what votes wero proposed for its district, and whether it was prepared to go on' with the work. If so, the local body should furnish plans and estimates of proposed works, and formally apply for authority. Tho circular was dated October 18. All the others would be sent out next week. Circulars in the same connection were sent simultaneously to the Public Works engineers, stating that the Government desired to have the works put in hand as soon as possible in order to take advantago of the approaching summer. Estimates Should be Earlier. Mr. MASSEY urged that arrangements should always be mado to present the Statement and Estimates early enough to enable the work to be put in band by tho timo tho good weather began. If necessary. Parliament should meet earlier. Tho Premier: Make tho financial year end on December 31. Mr. Massey: I would bo quite prepared to a<rree to that. Tho present system of Parliamentary grants was wasteful and unbusinesslike. There was not a single membor who had not heard statements that sums of money were placed on tho Estimates for political purposes, and ho believed many of those statements wero true.. He saw no reason why the new English system of the independent D;velopment Board should not bs adopted in Now Zealand. Tho Hon. R, M'IvENZIE said it was absurd to say that the money should always be spont in tho eamo vear. As an illustration, lir. Masjey himself had lately introduced a deputation ajlring for a v'oto for a bridge that would cost .020,000. It was quite a necessary work, but did ho suppose it could bo all spent—plans prepared and all—beforo next March? Some of the county councils had votes for .£40,000, and such amounts as those could not possibly be all spent before the end of March. Another objection to what was proposed was that it would thro* many men out of work in the winter. The present system was proing to bo maintained. Only a certain number of men wero available for tho work, and there was a shortage of labour last summer, Mr. HERDMAN said the practico of allowing the people to believe that largo sums would be spent on roads and bridges, and Mien,not spending; those sumsi was a deception' and a sham. That was why ho objected to it. Mr. Herdman was referring to tho statements reported in the press as having been mado by the Minister for Public Works at Opunako in regard to political sympathies and public works, when Tho Primo Minister interposed, and said that his colleague had stated in the House that_ he had not used tho words attributed to him; Mr. Herdman should accept this. Mr. Herdman went on to say that tho money borrowed for public works was a huge fund in the hands of Ministers of tho Crown to do what they liked with. Members passed the Estimates without

knowing'whether justice or injustice was j king done. Tho Development Bill in England authorised the expenditure ci money on public, works. It was pointed out by a member of .tho Cnjonist-pariythat tliis put a great deal of power into" the hands of tho Minister, and would enablo tho money to boused for bribal purposes, and that pressuro might be brought to bear by members on behalf of districts in which they wore particularly interested. In, fact, all the evils that had occurred in 'connection with tho public works system in New Zealand had bren pointed out as certain to ensue, and the remedy had been 'agreed to by both parties. About Portfolios, Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) said ho had imagined that when Mr. LloydGcorgo made the statement quoted he saw opposite him men like the member for Wellington North, and imagined that thero might be danger with a crowd like that. Mr. Herdman's criticism had been destructive. Ho had not indicated any better method thnn that in vogue. The members of the Opposition had tried to give a distorted view of the expenditure of money under the Public Works votes. The Estimates were merely the placing of i the works that were desirable on the list. The authorisation came later. Tho gentlemen opposite, who had criticised tho Statement, all hoped to have portfolios in a future Ministry. Mr. Allen: What about yourself? Mr. Russell: I will never havo a portfolio in your Ministry, anyhow! Mr. Allen: I would not like to trust you! Mr. Russell: I would not trust you under any circumstances. An Opposition member: "Look out for Laurenson !" (Laughter.) A Government Defender. Mr. W. D. S. MACDONALD (Bay of Plenty) objected that the continued criticism and moving of amendments that had taken place only delayed the Estimates, and held back the money from going into circulation. As explaining why some of the votes had not been wholly expended, Mr, Macdonald stated that county councils, which now expended money that had hitherto been expended by the Roads and Bridges Department, sometimes had a difficulty in obtaining lnbour so that works might bo prosecuted with speed. The county councils were themselves to blame. Numbers of them, instead of expending tho money voted, quibbled with the Minister about expenses of supervision. The amount on tho Estimates, though the Leader of the Opposition had said that votes were granted where they were not wanted, was just about one-fourth what had been applied for by the various county councils. No one could say that Mr. Hine was a supporter of the Government. He would ask Mr. Hino to say if there had over been more men employed in his district than at present on public works. A member: This is election year. Mr. Jennings: How many havo I got? Mr. Macdonald: "You are not a Government supporter!" He concluded that to him it seemed that Opposition districts were better treated than those that returned Government supporters. The Premier on Parliament. Sir Joseph WARD said the complaint of tho Opposition was that the Government was not expending the full amount of (.he vote. Under the English Development Bill tho sum voted for tho first year was .£500,000. Tho amount actually expended was ,£265,000. Mr. Massey: That was in tho first year. The Premier said there was an attempt to apologise for tho member for Wellington North. Mr. Herdman interjected that this was not tho point he had raised. Sir Joseph Ward continued that the Developmental Board was in no way analogous to a Public Works Board. Tho Government made no railways, roads, or bridges in England, Scotland, or Ireland. One of tho great complaints in tho Old Country for years had been that tho great public "Departments which in New Zealand provided for the needs of the people did not there exipt. It had actually boon proposed to set up a board that would bo independent of Parliament. The proposal was on all fours with Mr. Herdman's proposals to put the Civil Service and the Railways, each under the control of an autocrat. • Mr. Herdman interjected that he desired to remove tho public service from autocratic control. Sir Joseph Ward continued that tho Development Board in England could cajry out its work without reference to the British Government or to Parliament. Tho hon. gentleman desiral to sot up a similar board hero. If tho advice were taken wliat would thero be for a member of Parliament to do? Thero ivxmld Boon be ft suggestion, to do away with the

honorarium! Tho hundreds of letters that now came to jiiembors would go to tho commissioner instead. Mr. Massey: Oh, wo could do without thorn! Tho Premier went on that tho Houso would only need to sit from 9.30 a.m. until noon. People would be getting paid for doing nothing so far as Parliamcntary duties were concerned. This was not what the people required. Far years to come people would bo trying in this country to open lands and make homes for themselves in the interior, and they needed the help of their representatives. Tho proposal to establish a board was barbaric and under tho circumstances Parliament would have next door to nothing to do. Probably it would meet f»r a month, and members would then go away to spend the rest of the time in their homes. But for the Denartaieils wjiich were so much ustd by tno peopla in Now Zealand tho eeunfcry would! xot have advanced as it had. The proposal had been advanced because the hon. member for Wellington North was not in any sense a believer in the administration. Mr. L. M. ISITT (Christchurch North) said he shrewdly suspected that if the Opposition occupied the Government benches, no more would be heard of these board proposals. Touching Mr. Herdman's mention of Mr. Lloyd-George, Mr. Isitt said that the Wellington DomisioS had absolutely said that Lloyd-George was responsible for the bloodshed and the riot and misery and disturbance and wretchedness occasioned in Great Britain by the absolutely damnable conditions under wliich thousands of working men and women lived in that country. A Faint of Order. Mr. MASSEY raised a point of order, fishing what this had to do with tho Public Works Statement. Mr. LAUKENSON submitted that tho member for Christchurch North was quite in order. He was replying to a laudatory speech about Llovd-George by a gentleman whom they knew would cut LloydGeorge's throat to-morrow if ho had a chance! (Laughter.) Mr. G. M. Thomson: You ought to bo 8-xhauied of voursolf! The CHAIRMAN ruled that Mt. Isitt was in order.

Mr. Isitt continued that members of tho Opposition must take, their gruel. Tho lion, gentleman had alisolutcly besceched him to become a follower of this man whom he and his class had consistently, vilified. The Opposition blew hot and cold, and used for political purposes ii man whoso wholo political career they reprobated. Mr. W. T. JENNINGS (Tauuiarunui) remarked that discontent arose because settlors fair that i£2OO,OCO was voted, and perhaps only rometJiing like .£83,000 expendea. He had previously urged that it would be better to bring down tho Public Works Statement at tho end of September. The abolition of the Roads Department by tho Government was a great mistake, so" far en the North Island wm concerned. When the Department was «bolished there wo* nothinj to Teplace it. Mr. M'Kenido: You know better than, that.

Mr. Jennings: "I do not, and I am willing to be "convinced!" Ho added that ho would give a challenge to tho Prime Minister. He wonld mention a case in which three settlors had lived in a settlement for fifteen years and ho/1 nothing more than a six-foot road by which to get out and in. It would, bo an improvement on tho present system to let each Land Board deal with the roads of its district. The present system was cumbersome and inefficient. Mr. Jennings repeated his challenge about settlers being left without Toads. Mr. M'Kcnzie said ho had some in his district who had l>oen there forty years and had only a three-foot track. Mr. Jennings: "Then you havo been a bad representative." no went on to say that he gave tho Government credit i'ot what they had done, bnt wttlwncnt had developed ahead of ro?-d-makiig. "Votod" and "Appropriated." Mr. ALLEN (Bruce) said the money should be administered by local bodies on a largo scale. Under the present system Cabinet could cancel votes when" they knew nothing of the local circumstances, and accordingly every member knew that necessary vote's were often absent from the Estimates, and others not so important often appeared there. Ho pointed to the difference between the amounts rokd and tho sums appropriated. Last year the appropriations for public works were only 65 per cent, of the votes, and this year they would bo only 55 per cent. He quoted figures to show that different districts did not all get a fair quota on this basis, some having got nioro and somo less than the 65 per cent, last year. Every Appropriation Ast lapsed on March 31, but there was a proviso that the expenditure could go on at tho same rate as before for three months, provided the vote was not exceeded bv more than one-third. The Hon. R. M'KENZIE said Mr. Allen was wrong. The Department could go on expending the vote all the year. Tho member for Tauniavnnui, who regretted the abolition of the Roads Department, would no doubt liko to have twenty Government engineers dancing attendance upon him whan going round the country, but that was not in tho interests of the country. This settlers ought to assist themselves, but they were not likely to do so while their member came down to n ellington begging for them. Mr. MASSEY raid the Parliament and t.h» country were sick and tired of the present system, and desired a change. He agreed with Mr. Jennings that it was a mistake to do away with the Roads and Bridges Department, which employed expert engineers, and did the work much more satisfactorily than it was nowdone. Mr. Massey said that the amendment proposed bv" the member for Wellington North offered two alternatives, the establishment of a Development Board on the English plan, or a return to the provincial system, so far as the distribution of public money was concerned. Districts should be classified into those that required assistance and those iuilh to build and maintain their own roads and bridges. Grants should not be made without cither the member for the district or the local body of the district being consulted. This was done at present. The case of a grant to Hobson County some time previously had shown that the Minister arrogated the right to revoke a grant made by Parliament. Thus the Minister put himself above Par- ' Mr'"/. STALLWORTnY (Kaipara) stated that .£l5O of a grant made to the Hobson County Council had been withdrawn bocauso the Council had accepted .£IOO from the owner of the Karaka Block, in lieu of a road b:ing made by him. Mr.' Stallwortliv related that when the chairman of the county council interviewed the Minister for Public Works in reference to the grant, Mr. M'Kenzie told him that he ought to bo ra gaol, and that he had practically presented tho owner of the Karaka Block with .£SOOO. Mr. G. W. RUSSELL (Avon) denied that Opposition members were penalised for party reasons, and quoted figures in support of this contention. There had never been a more fair and just expenditure of public monev than during the last five or six years.J The statement of the member for Wellington North that Opposition members were penalised in the matter of votes because they were not persona grata with the Government had been denied by his leader. Mr. JENNINGS complained that North Taraiiaki had been tho Cinderella of tho road districts. It had frequently been robbed by the adjoining district, represented by the member for Stratford. Public Money and Party Gain, Mr. HERDMAN said that if tho member for Avon seriously declared that public monev was not spent in New Zealand for political purposes he was wrong. It < was admitted and recognised. Last session the Minister for Public Works had said that ho wonld strike off a vote set down for the Ohinemuri district to punish its member for olistriiction. Mr. Poole interjected that tho Leader of tho Opposition had suggested it too. Mr. MASSEY said that, on the occasion mentioned, one vote was struck off— a vote which had been expended. It was then proposed to strike off another. Ho warned tho House that this was a vory dangerous thing to do. About this time the obstruction ceased. The vote was not struck off. and it was duo to his intercession that it was not. A Private Conversation. Mr. POOLE said that on the evening in question he was over by tho Opposition lienches, and heard tho Leader of tho Opposition say that a voto should be struck out. Mr. Massey: It was a private conversation. , Mr. Poolo: No. you said it to me. Mr. Massey: Then it was a privato conversation, and the hon. gentleman gets up I twelve months afterwards and repeats it [in the Housel

Mr. HERDMAN said his recollection was that it was nt the instigation of tlio Minister for Public Works that the vote of .£2OO was struck off. It was by reason of tlio fact that public money was spent for political purposes that Government members wero in their places. Mr. POOLE said that on the night when tlio "punufhrncut" of tho member for Ohinemuri occurred, ho happened to bo over by the Opposition benches, and heard Air. Afassey suggest that a vote should lx) struck out. This was done on the voices, wliich meant by tho unanimous consent of tho Opposition and tho Government. Mr. Massey was not the first to appeal for a cessation of obstruction. It was Mr. Hogan, member for Wangnnui. Mr. Massey was proceeding, when Mr. Toole interjected: aro in tho soup." Mr. Massey: No, tho lion. gentleman is in the soup. I would not make such a confession as vou mndo to-night for .£IO,OOO. Tlio Hon. It. M'KENZIE said that tho Hobson County case mentioned by Mr. Massev was ono in which a private owner was liablo to make about .€SOOO worth of roads. Not one penny was spent in forming roads before tho block was taken over bv tho council. He had made up his mind that not ono penny of public monev should bo spent upon tho block from "that dar to this, and had adhered to his resolve'. In "his view, there had been an attempt to defraud ihe taxpayers of tho countrv. Mr. Herdmau's amendment was nogatived, on a division, by 10 votes to 23. Tho Division List. Following is the division list:— Ayes (23): Allen, Anderson, Bollard, Buchanan, Dive, ,T. Duncan, Fisher, Fraser, Guthrie, Hardy, Hcrdman, Merries, Hine, Lang, Massev, Newman, Noaworthy, Okey, Pearce, Rhodes, Scott, G. M. Thomson, Wright. Noes (10): Arnold, Brown, Buddo, Buxton Cerroll, Clark, Davey, Dillon, Hon. T Duncan, Ell, "Field, Forbes, Glover, Graham, Grc-cnslade, Hall, Italian, Jennings, Laurcnson, Lawry, Luke Macdonahl, Hon. R. M'Kon/.ie, Millar, Myers, Ngata, Parata, Poland, Poole, Rangihiroa Reed, Doss, Seddon, Sidey, Smith, Stallworthv, Taylor, J. C. Thomson, Ward, Witty.

THE MOUNT EGMONT RAILWAY.

AN ITEM REDUCED. Mr. DIVE moved to reduce the item "Mount Egmont branch railway, .£1500,' bv .ClO, as an indication of disapproval of the unbusinesslike methods of tho Department. Mr. jt'KENfilE said ho thought it rather a pitr that the lion, member had not moved to reduce this vote by .£IO,OOO Ifo had visited the work, and had not found things in a very satisfactory state. For instance, stone was being taken from the river instead of being pushed on for two miles to a permanent quarry. He had no great objection to the work being stopped altogether. . Mr. OKEY said ho hoped tho Minister would push on tho line instead of stopping it. When completed it might bo used for tourists who visited tho mountain. Mr. HINE said ho hoped tho railway would not bo discontinued, as it was tho solo means of obtaining good road metal for a largo district. Mr. DIVE said lie would not press the amendment, especially after the admission by tho Minister that he was incompetent to administer tlio affairs of his Department. Sir Joseph WARD remarked that aifcr this statement he would object to tho amendment being withdrawn. Tho amendment was carried on the voices.

SOUTH ISLAND MAIN TRUNK.

Mr. J. DUNCAN (Wairau) urged that more consideration should bo given to the South Island -Main Trunk lino. It was tho mest important main arterial line now under construction, and tho Minister had said that ho hoped to complete it in 10 years. Mr. M'KENZIE said he hoped to do so still., The Bealoy section of the Midland line would be" completed about December of next year, and that would mean a saving Oi" £50,000 a year, some of which could lie applied to the South Island Main Trunk line. Mr. BUCHANAN advocated the Rimutaka deviation as a payable undertaking. Tho Hon. It. M'KENZIE stated in reply to Mr. Herdman thai the future railway policy of tho Government was to complete the railway system of the Dominion as rapidly as possible. The main lines should be completed in about' 15 years. There would then remain a number of branch lines lo construct. Answering Mr. Hine, tho Minister said that the Government recognised only two alternatives in ordinary railway construction—that of co-opei-aUvo works, and that of small contracts. Important bridges were always constructed on the contract system. Answering a question by Mr. Newman in regard -o the Levin-Marton railway, tho Miniater staled that the matter would bo dealt with later on in the Railways Authorisation Bill. Tho vote 'of .£1,083,000 for railway construction was passed, with the exception of tho reduction of .£lO on the item for the Mount Egmont Branch. At O.TO a.m. thero were 28 members in their places. The vote of .£370,000 for additions to open linos was passed without amendment DEVELOPMENT OF WATER-POWER. When the next item, Development of Water Power, .050,000, was called upon, Mr. WRIGHT asked what it was intended to do in this connection in f he neighbourhood of Wellington. Tho MINISTER stated that a number of schemes would be considered simultaneously. The engineer of tho Department would inspect the site of the proposed reservoir in the Hutt- Valley among others. Tho scheme most likely to prove profitable would be gone on with. The vote was passed unamended. The appropriation of ,£30,000 for irrigation and water-supply was similarly dealt' with.

PARLIAMENTARY BUILDINGS. Public Buildings: JM'I9,OOO. Mr. G. M. THOMSON, speaking of the designs for the new Parliamentary Buildings said that ho did not think that tho chief Government architect', Mr; Campbell, should have been allowed to compete. Presumably he knew more than others about tho requirements of the Government. The MINISTER said tho competition had been open to every Government architect in New Zealand and not to the chief Government archifcet alone. The preliminary requirements wero not settled by Mr. Campbell and he had little or nothing to do with drawing up the conditions. In regard to selecting a design the Government architect would havo to lie consulted and probably somebody else. An ornamental building that would be a credit to the country could probably lie erected at a cost of i' 200,000. No definite arrangements had yet been made in regard to selecting a design. Tho work of erecting the building would be started as soon as possible. Mr. HERDMAN asked the Minister what had been spent in altering the buildings now occupied by Parliament, the construction of tho "tube," and other alterations made since the fire, also whether it was intended to remove tho Government offices. Answering Mr. Wright, the Minister stated that tho Government had nine excellent designs for tho new buildings to chooso from. They owned the first four, and if they wanted any of the others would have" to pay for them. As to the site, tho building would not ba placed in a hollow. The member for Wellington North no doubt wanted an artistic structure. Perhaps he would like a greenstone front. Mr. Herdman: No. To Air. Fisher the Minister stated that the d«ci;rion as (-0 tho plan finally selected would bo made by Cabinet. Mr. Fisher urged that tho Government should not stint expenditure on the new building. The Premier said tho Government would do tho right tiling:. They would have tho best possiblo adaptation made from tho plans they had bought, and, if jicccssary, they would secure somo of the others. Tho site had not yet been definitely selected. Mr. BUCHANAN.said it wonld bo difficult to put a satisfactory building on the site, that had been proposed. At 1.10 a.ni. there were 29 members in the- House. l Oatt Sitting