THE LOAN BILL.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1263, 19 October 1911, Page 6

THE LOAN BILL.

AND PUBLIC WORKS DEBATE. OPPOSITION CRITICISM AND MINISTERIAL REPLIES. The PRIME AIINLSTEU (Sir Joseph Ward) mofed the second reading of tne Aid to Public Works and Land Settlement Biil, which pravidui for the raising of a loan of ,il,oilll,oUo, as forecasted in the Budget and Public Works Statement. In moving tho foooml reading, tho Prime Minister said that half a million was to be transferred from the Consolidated Revenue to the Public Works l''und. it might be more, but he had slated that amount as a safe forecast. The amount of i;M)U,000 for additions to open lines of railway would bo made up to J-'oOO.OOO by the balance brought forward. Most of the expenditure of this loan money would be reproductive, and many of tiio works would pay all the interest on tho money expended ou them. Tho amount asked for wasaiot more than was required, and if all the requests for railways, etc., were acceded to the loan would be quite inadequate.

Mr. James ALLEN (Bruce) slid ho wished to remove a misconception as to the attitude of himself and others. Ho was not opposed to loans, but ho was opposed to wasteful expenditure of borrowed money. He instanced tho cost of railway construction. Every mile of railway today cost .£2OOO a mile more than it did soino years ago. Ho agreed entirely with the policy adopted by the present .Minister ior Railways of making the railways pay approximately four per cent. It was not self-relianeo to make a very heavy expenditure upon public buildings. It would bo better to spend money in opening up the back country than to erect extravagant public buildings. Only tnis gard to' these loans, and supplying them House been given any information in regard to the cost of raising loans. A. number of loans had been raised in 11I0G in New Zealand and Australia. Thorn would have been no difficulty in obtaining the particulars desired in regard to these loans, and supplying them to tho Ilouso in 190S when they were asked for. Ho saw 110 reason why the cost of loans raised in 1910 should r.ot bo mado known, this year. Mr. Allen expressed some doubt as to whether the policy of raising the whole of the loans for a year in ono lump sum was sound. The Only Hope. In Ashburton last year the Premier had said that if borrowing stopped the rate'of interest would go up like the cork from a soda-water bottle. Tlvo member for Dunedin South had stated in tho House that borrowing was tho only remedy in this country for unemployment. In 1891, Mr. Ballanco had remarked in hU Financial Statement: "I have referred to tho cessation of public works as ono of tho assiimed causes of (ho exodus. Doe-s it not show that the method of carrying on public works has been radically vicious when those who have been engaged upon them are coinpolled to emigrate?" Mr. Allen said he admitted that borrowing to go on to a certain extent, but when it attained its present magnitude, and when the people wero told that borrowing could not stop without tho rate of going up, what was going to happen b> and by? The Prime Minister proposed to go on for another twenty years or more borrowing at the present rate. The hon. gentleman would probably be out of office, but somebody else would liavo to faco tho trouble when it came. If the Prime Minister, the member for Dunedin South, and Mr. Ballnnco were right in the statements quoted, borrowing should be so Tcgulated—it rihould bo gradually stopped—and not suddenly cut off— that none of tho evils mentioned would occur. If the Prime Minister took a statesmanlike view, lie would so limit borrowing that tho country would be opened up for the people. If this were done, tho rste of borrowing would not go up when borrowing ceascd, and no "migration _ would take place. Tlie-Prime Minister differed from his colleague m regard to tho loan proposed that year, for his colleague had stated during tho recess that no loan would be necessary. Ho considered that the right thing to do was to allow tho Bill to go through on the understanding that there would be economy so that tlie system of borrowing for public works should gradually cease. It was proposed to borrow a very large sum, but lie warned people that promises had often been made and broken before.

Broken Promises. People had been disappointed time after time, and they would no doubt be disappointed Again. In 1903 it had been promised that a million would bo spent on back-block roads. The amount expended. so far was «E. 105,000. The items in the Estimates as they now stood did not represent the appropriation, but tlio amount required for the year. This gave the Executive a power to which it had no shadow of right, of transferring money from ono vote to another. Mr. Masscy's Challenge, Mr. iIASSJBY directed attention to tho following question, addressed by Mr. C'raigio to the Prime Minister:— "(1) Whether ho has scon statements mado in newspapers by ill-inlormcd persons that tho Government did not give (information respecting tho raising of loans, and that it was not generally known what tho loans wore costing the country; and (2) what steps does ho purposo taking to repudiate such allegations?" To this the I'rimo Minister had Teplied: "So many misrepresentations hnvo been made about this and other matters that it would appear that a campaign of misrepresentation has been arranged and is being vigorously prosecuted. Information respecting the raising of loans is given as soon as received." Mr. iIASSEX said ho did not know whether tho hon. gentleman had referred to him as an ill-informed person, but ho challenged the Prime Minister or anybody eiss to deny that up to the beginning of tho present session no details in regard to the cost of raising loans had been supplied to the House for four years, lfe read tho statement mado by tho Premier at "Devonport to the effect that if borrowing was stopped half tho business people in Now Zealand would Ijc insolvont within three months. The PREMIER: I said that if we stopped borrowing, when wo were in the midst of a development policy, it would bring ruin to many in trade. I stand by that.

Mr. MASSEY said ho was sorry to hear it. lib had hoped tho Premier would have had sonic explanation to offer, as the statement referred to was calculated to havo a very damaging effeot oil th« credit of the Dominion. Tho failuro of the Government to ejpend monevs vote<l, especially for the roads whic.li were so eagerly desired by the settlers, was strongly commented upon by Mr. Massev. Ho regretted that the Local Government Bill was still not forthcoming, as the system of Parliamentary grants and doles ought to be done away with. He was sorry provision was not made for the commencement of tho Strat-fovil-Ongaruo line at the Ongarue end. according to the repeated promises of Ministers.' Local bodies should be allowed to develop hydro-electric power in places whore the Government could not sec its way to do so. Private individuals and companies should be allowed to do .likewise, with provision to prevent monopoly, and to give the Government the right to purchase the undertakings. Much mere stolid l"' <'-cne to utiliso tho unoccupicd Native laads. "Wailing and Yowling." Mr. G. LAUBEXSOX said ho did not suppose there were two better professional scolds in the country than tho two hon. gentlemen who bad last spoken. Mr. Herdman: What about yourself? Mr. Laurenson continued that the gentlemen he had named were forever wailing, Yowling and growling. 110 quoted from 'a speech by Mr. Massey seven years b-fore in which he had stated that neither ilm House i or tho country were satisfied with the mystery maintained by Hie Government in regard to loan operations, and characterised as "brazen effronterv" Mr. Massey's repetition of a similar'charge that, evening. The Lender of the Opposition was a professional scold and bully. The member for Drive was a "nagger." If ho (Mr. Laurenson) had been married to him ho would have applied for a scpar.it.un order within the liist six months. Mr. Laurenson slated that the cost of tho five million loan would not bo accurately known until HUi, tbrce years hence.

Mr. Allen: A new argument! Mr. Laurenson said that he would not havo entered the debate but for tlio "cock-and-bull" story of tile Opposition, which had driven him to his feet to reply to their imp'.ilj'it innuendoes and misrepresentations. The header of the Opposition had no sensj of proportion. He tool; a sledge-hammer to smash a Ilea with. "A Matter of Indifference." Mr. "W. II IIERRfISS remarked that the cost of a five million loan was plainly n matter of indifference to the member ior Lyttelton. Extending the idea why should not a fen million loan be raised, and why should representatives of ti.e peoplo be sent to Parliament at all? This was not the way things were dono in the old days. Then every sixpence of expenditure was .scrutinised, and it was in those days that tho foundations of our _ liberties wore raised. Possibly next session the member for Lyttelton would be seen following the new Evangel. To an interjection by the Primo Minister, Mr. llerries replied that if he "coalcsced" with the member for Lyttelton or the member for Christcliurch North, it would be a bad day for the Government. He was not sure what would happen afterwards, Criticising the Estimates in detail, Mr. Herries asked what was the uso of voting .£IO,OOO m tid of prospert'iig and then not spending it. The sight of the vote mado prospectors leap for joy, and tho disillusion that followed was painful. Mr. Jlerrie.? congratulated the Government upon deciding to start the Hast Coast railway from tho Waihi end. Remarks by Hon. R. M'Kcnzie. Tho Hon. I{. -VL'KUN/jli'j declared that tho member ior iiruco must know, though ho doubted whether tho member ior lauranga did, that tho use 01 hotter and heavier material explained the increased cost ot railways now as compared with some years ago. .Mr. Allen liau advanced no evidcnco m support of his charge of an extnuagant policy in regard to public buildings. Mr. M'tienzie said he believed that tho country would have to borrow live or six millions of money for tho development of liydro-clectricat energy. The Opposition were nob wideawake enough to realise the advantages of this development. At 0.30 a.m. there were 22 members in the House, of whom several were extended ou their benches, and took no active part in the proceedings.

Air. M'Kenzie contended that it was always necossary to have something like 31) per cent, moro money on tlie Public Works Estimates than it was proposed to spend during the year. Mo doubt a good deal more money would be spent this year than last year. lion. members opposite would say that this was beeauso it was election year. This had nothing to do with it. As it was being voted earlier in the year, (hero would bo three more months in which to spend the money. If tho total vote in aid of prospecting was not spent, it was because it was not required. Mr. PEAIICE (I'alca) complained of the non-oxpendituro of road votes in places where tho roads lvero very badly needed by iho settlers in Taranaki. This was tho caso whero tho Public Works Department kept tho matter in its own hands ev'cn moro than whero it placed the responsibility on the local bodies. ]lo also complained of tho loss and waste caused to tho country and tho local bodies through the delay in the construction of tho Mount Egniont railway. Ho approved of borrowing, but thought the money should bo spent upon tho objects for Which it was raised. Tho late expenditure in duplicating seven miles of railway to the Hutt seemed to have been made for the beneQt of land speculators. Mr. Pearco criticised tho system of cooperative works. At 1 a.m. there were 25 members in the House, of whom several were in more or less recumbent altitudes.

Mr. E. NEWMAN (Manawatu) recalled that the Government had promised to niako a flying survey of the LovinMarton railway route. Nothing had yet been done and ho urged that the promise should be carried out. The PrSmier's Reply. Sir Joseph "WARD said that oho member of tho Opposition had endeavoured to injure tho co-operative workers by aspersing tho quality of their work, and seeking to go back io the old grinding system of contract payments. Mr. Pearce: 1 wmt to give them better wages. 'l'ho Premier said ho was not in a rage. Yesterday one member opposite had been in a towering rage, and tho Opposition organ had raid nothing about it. Meantime, ho was himself in a perfectly good temper, and they said he was in a rage. Mr. Allen had been a great advocate gf wasteful expenditure on the Ofago Central railway, and tho Lnwrence-Koxburgh railway. Home of the North Island members of tho Opposition, like Mr. Pearce, were always comolaining o£ tho expenditure in tho South Island. He wondered that their southern confreres would sit with them. There was not a spark of generosity or a scintilla of accuracy in their comparisons between the expenditure in the two islands. Tho_Government had not boon unfair to the North Island. He saw that now the Opposition was urging the large landowners and tho extremo Socialists—their own organ was urging it —should go hand in hand to get a chance of merely viewing tho Treasury benches— for that was as far as the.v would get, Ix'cause it would bo seen that Laiwur would have the control, which ho personally would bo very glad to see. The party was also prepared to throw over its own Loader.

Jlr. Nosworthy: Not this party. Tho Premier: I could quote it. (Opposition dissent.) 'Why was there such a want. of cohesion and loyalty among thoso who were finding fault with tho Government? Tho members of tho Opposition who bad asked for fnrther particulars about the live million loan knew from tho High Commissioner's cables, printed in tho Budget, that the particulars had not yet readied tho Government. The return conrerniug cost of loans that had l>een tabled showed a profit on each transaction, nnd thoro had been no criticism about that since, except that tho information ought to have beon given before. Thev would say the samo when they had the particulars about tho five miiiion loan—and that was called politics! Tlio cheapest and most satisfactory plaji had been followed in raising tlio iivo million loan. Not one critic of tho Government had said how it could lie dono bettoT. Instead there was tho samo old repetition as occurred every year in connection with those loans. Tho Premie! produced tho report of his speech at Devonport, and stated that lie was then answering a proposal that borrowing should ceasj. lie asked the House to imagine any one insane enough to stop borrowing in this country. It would create a financial panic to do it. The Leader of the Opposition bad taken advantage of a plain statement. The member for Bruce had ignored that every year this country carried a greater population. Railways were carried on every year as fast as they could be in reason, "and the country was being developed as rapidly as possible, in order to accommodate the millions who would populate it in future. The financial poople in England would laugh at any man, who suggested that, borrowing by this country should bo stopped, for tiiey knew that it meant that tens of thousands of people would emigrate. The song about the population ieaving tho country' was really ludicrous, and really laughable. During the last ten years the population of New Zealand had increased by 335,092, a much greater increase than that of any of tho Australian States. Eor downright po-«iniism tho present Opposition licked creation.

Mr. PEAKCE moved, and Mr. JCOSWOIvTHY secoadjd an amendment to redncn the amount to be authorised by .£200.000, as an indication that the Government was borrowing too much money. Mr. LAIIHEXKOX threatened that when tho Pnblic Works Estimates wero befora the nouso all tho votes for districts represented by members who condemned lxirroving would lie struck out. (Left Sitting.) ARBITRATION BILL. Sir Joseph Ward mentioned last night that the Minister for Labour had an important Amendment to movo when tho Arbitration Till readies Committee of the Whole. Jt k understood that tho amendiucnt l-cfors to the machinery for making Dominion awards, and not to tho constitution of tho Arbitration Court. Tho non. T. Mackenzie is one of I lie latest victims to influenza. He is now in tho hands of tho doctor, but is expected to be about again in a few days.