TUESDAY'S SITTING.

Dominion, Volume 5, Issue 1262, 18 October 1911, Page 8

TUESDAY'S SITTING.

LOCAL BILLS. Tho House met at 2.30 p.m. yo.ste.rday. Tho Hon. D. BUDDO intimated Ural ho would ask leave to introduce the Municipal Corporations Amendment BiU. 'Mr. MALCOLM a?krd the Primo Minister to state when local Bills would bo dealt with. Sir Joseph WARD said ho proposed to givo full opportunity to the House to deal willi tho local Bills. ne desired that Bills now before Committees should be dealt with. The Hou.ce might deal with local Bills on Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday morning. NEW BILLS. Tlio following Bills were read a first time:—Legislature Amendment Bill (Sir J. G. Ward). Ural Elections and Polls Amendment Bill (Hon. I). Buddo), Public Reserves and Dmuains Amendment Bill (Sir J. G. Ward). THE SECOND BALLOT. Mr. LUKE notified that when the Legislature Amendment Bill was before tho nouso he would propose an amendment repealing tho Second Ballot Act. FIRST READINGS. Tho Aid to Public Works and Land Settlement Bill and the Railways Authorisation Bill were introduced by Governor's Message and read a first time. ■ BILLS IN COMMITTEE. Tho Committee stages of the Elingamito Rohearing Bill and the Dimwlin Technical School Site Bill were completed without amendment. OLD AGE PENSIONS. The Old Age Pensions Amendment Bill was amended on the motion of the Prime Minister with tho object of preventing abuses in conutction with the adoption oi children. Touching a provision empowering magistrates to grant pensions to men of sixty and women of fifty-five, baring children dependent on them."

Sir Arthur GUINNESS moved as an amendment that magistrates should bo instructed to rako cognisance of tho number of children dependent on tho applicant. Tho pension should be graduated in regard to the number of children. Sir Joseph WARD objected that other factors than the number of children had to l>o considered, and the amendment was not pressed. What Constitutes Income? Sir JosDph WARD moved to add tho following now clause.:— •1. Where any pensioner or applicant for a pension who is the owner of a sum of money not othcrwiso chargeable as income expends out of that sum in any your in maintaining himself or his wife eo much of that sum as, with the actual income of either or both of them and any pension already granted to ono or tho other, exceeds sixty pounds if ho is unmarried or ninety pounds if he is married and maintaining his wife, any sum k> expended in excess shall be deemed to be incomo for the purpose of this Act: Provided that the magistrate may in his discretion exempt from tin- provisions of this section any sum which lie deems to havo been otherwise legitimately expended. Sir Arthur GUINNESS contended that this would penalise old nge pensioner* Mouoy used aftor being saved up for a rainy day should not bo regarded as income.

Sir Joseph WARD said that an ounce of praclifo was worth a ton of theory. in one ease, a man drawing a full peiision had taken a sum of .009 out of a. bank in which it had been deposited and had dissipated tho whole sum. Tho only remedy was to treat such withdrawals, when they exceeded a certain sum, as income. .Magistrates at present held divergent views as to what constituted income. The new clause would make for uniformity and would meet tho whole position in a reasonable way. Mr. HERMES objected to the clause, that it left tho magistrate to decido what was income, and only dealt with money which the .magistrate had not determined to regard as income. The. clauso also left in tho same ambiguous position as at present tho question as to whether money realised from tho sale of property coiisljtiiroH income. The PRIME MINISTER said that under tho law as it stood a single man who was a pensioner could draw ,EM per annum, and a married man .£IH. Houses also wero exempted. They should not attempt to turn the Old Ape Pension system into a machine for providing huge, salaries. "Even a Magistrate." Sir Arthur UUINNESS contended that tho Prime Minister had quoted au isolated case ill speaking of the pensioner who drew out and dissipated Tho aim of Parliament, in amending tho Old Age Pension law, should be to eucourajo thrift. This clauso would discourage it. What was really required was an amendment providing that: "Income shall not include any money drawn from a bank or institution where it has been deposited, or interost, or for safe custody," if necessary a maximum sliould be stated. If a eliiiiso wore drawn in this way, it could be understood by anybody—oven a magistrate. Tho clause woe added on a division by 35 votes to SI.

'Sir Arthur CiIUXNESS moved the addition of his amendment defining income as a new clause. The PRIME MINISTER declined to accept tho amendment, on the ground that it was in conflict with the clauso just passed, .ind stated that, rather than accept amendments which he did not approve, he would drop tho Bill. Sir Arthur GUINNESS denied tho validity of this view, aiagistrates, as the Prime "Minister himself had stated, differed at present in their definition of income. The amendment would provide a definition. Sir Joseph WARD said he had gone as far with these proposals as the country could bear, and was not prepared to further increase tho burden at present. If the provision that could now bo made for pensiouers enabled a single man to draw .400 a year in addition to his pension, a married man could draw .tM. If this provision had been mado a few years ago, it would have been called extravagant. Sir Arthur GUINNESS asked whether tho Prime Minister would put what bo had just into Hansard. It might help tho Magistrate?. The Prime Minister said ho would net promise. Mr. Frascr an-:' Mr. Allen challenged I ho cbrrectne=s of what the Primo Minister had said. Tlii Prime Minister interjected that he should havo said "earn" instead of Sir Arthur GUINNESS Kiid that he would withdraw his amendment, as the Primo Minister had staled, in effect, that if tho ainwidnicnt were carried he would drop the Bill. A Word for Pioneers. Mr. ANDERSON sought to introduce an amendment providing Hint old peoplo who?? period of resilience in New Zealand dated back over a period of -il) years should be entitled to a pension though they hod been absent for more than four years duriu; tho 25 years preceding the application. The amendment wos ruled out of order, on the ground that, if passed, it would increase the appropriation. Iflio Bill was reported, with amendments. WIDOWS' PENSIONS BILL. Tho Widows' Pensions Bill was considered iu Committee. Mr. HERMES siißßCsied that as the BUI .was, to apply, to. SIaoK as .well aa_

Europeans, (hero sliould be somo definition us to what cl;uss of marriages among Natives would bo rooigni.ssd. Sir J. WAUU said 'iliuit ho was legally advised that this was not necessary, Mnrriuecs according to Maori custom would be recognised under tire Hill as it stood. Air. IUOHKJKS moved to add to Clause \\i (which empowers tho Governor-in-Couucil to make regulations) a sub-clauso re(|uiriiii» tho regulations to bo laid nil tho lalilo of (.he House within fourteen days after (ho commencement of the >ession, and referred to a Select Committee. This w ngreed to A tJiitiso excluding aliens and "Chinese and other Asiatics" from the benefits of tho measure was moved by tho Premier, and adopted. The PRKMIKK declined to accept a suggestion by Mr. J. Duncan to extend benefits ul the Bill to women whose husbands nro chronic invalids or mental defectives. Tho Bill was reported as amended. GUARANTEED ADVANCES. The N.Z. State Guaranteed Advances Amendment Hill passed lilirough Committco without amendment. EDUCATION RESERVES. Tho Auckland Grammar Re-hool Sito Bill was put through Committee without amendment. In Committee on the Education Reserves Ainomlmnit BUI, Tho IHNISTIIR (non. T. Mackenzie) moved an amendment to add to -lie leasing powers proposed to be conferred upon the High School Trustees, tho power to grant, leases of reserves with , perpetual right of renewal. This was agreed to, after somo discussion. BILLS PASSED. Tho Bills put through Committee, as above, wero read a third time, and passed. TRAMWAYS AMENDMENT BILL. THE DAVEY AMENDMENT. The Tramways Bill was recommitted. Mr. WILFOitD said ho desired to advance reasons why Clause Ba, added on the motion of Mr. Davey, sliould bo eliminated, and he would speak principally from tho point of view of the city of Wellington. Ho did not complain at tho Government having insisted upon a narrow-gauge track and correspondingly narrow care in Wellington, but tho city tramways engineer (Mr. Richardson) had stated that if Clause 8 (a) were enforced ill Wellington the city would be forced to undertake" ;in expenditure of .£61,000, and great inconvenience would bo caused to tramway passengers in Wellington. The service would necessarily bo mado much slower and lew efliciont than at present. Some members had scoffed at Mr. Kichardson's estimate that it would cost 'j.i. ]>er car to convert them as demanded in the new clause. The cars being five feet six inches wide, if two seats, were left on ono side and one on the other, tho passage-way would be one foot three inches wide. This was not wide enough, unci the only solution was to adopt tho longitudinal seat. The palace care would require new sides, and alterations at the end to provide separate places for motormau and conductor. The steel under-franios of tho cars would have to be dismantled and other extensive alterations mado. Little more than the roof of tfio' old car would bo saved. The new body would cost about JioaO, so that, making allowance for tho material saved, Jl'4oo was a moderate estimate of the cost of conversion. Similar extensive alterations would havo to bo mado in the combination type cars. Mr. Davcy Explains. Mr. DAVEY said lie did not pretend to ba a civil engineer, but he knew someihing about the insido arrangement of ears. Tho statements mado by Mr. Richardson were absolutely absurd. Ho was prepared now to enter into a contract to alter the cars at tho rate of JJj'J a piece. Mr. Wilford: Who is to draw the specifications ?

Mr. Davey: "The Public Works Department." Ho had never suggested that various types of cars should bs converted into box-cars. Ho proposed that palacecars should remain as at present, save for- a passage being run up tho niiddlo would wean cuttiug out ono seat. Mr. Davey declined to reply to an interjection by Mr. Wilford, who asked how wido ho would nialco the passage-way. Tho lrhoJo contention of tliose who opposed tho clause was that tlio alteration would cost too much money. He, however, was for the safety of tho men every time. Tho City Council did not put on extra cars if it was wet weather at night, and the care wcro overcrowded with strap-hangers. An Unfair Burden, Mr. WILFUK-D, replying to Mr. Davey, said there was no doubt tm\t tranic would bo slowed it Mr. ilavey's proiiosat were agreed to. A'eitncr would it be. Kilo lor tm> conductor. Another point was that tuey were now asked to cm down tlio cars fnat were passed by the Minister as satasiactory. 'iiio capival invested in the Wellington, trams Mas .iIiID.OOO. They had cut down prolits to i:aUUU or ,£GtiW u. year, and they yave the longest i»ujiy nue 01 any city in :\'cw ZcaiauJ. In Aucldaud tlio penny nuo avcragtd 81 chaius, in Uiristcmirch it \uis M, in DimeUiu 83, and in M'eiiingtou M. The city had mado many concessions as well, and on top of uJI this tliey were no;\" 'a»lteu to go to a fresh expeuuiture ot hut Uwm cut that estimate down by h.iu and call it j.3O,WX), and lio still taid U was unfair.

Mr. DAVEY admitted that no doubt air. Richardson's estimate was perfectly correct lrom his point of view. Why, il it was necessary to dismantle all tho cars, was it passible to Have two scats ou uno side auu two on the other of tho cioußio-Ueciiersr' If his clauso were to be ueicuted, let it be done by fair argument, and not by romaucing. Tno statement that lie was asiaiyj tho Wellington pcsjp'.o to cut tueir ears to pioocs was absurd. Jio ridiculed the statement of the chairman oi tlio (Jlmstchurcii '.tramway Board that the risk to which conductors and passengers were exposed was inherent, in one week threo men had been swept off the side-boards of ears in Christchurch, two or tliem being maimed for iiJe. let ho was told that the humanitarian retorm ho proposed was clap-trap, lie read a. letier from -Mr. JMvid Sykes, a member of tho Christchurch Tramway Board, strongly supporting his proposals and stating that it would be an improvement to compel tho local bodies to convert !>0 per cent, of their tramway stock in a year instead of 10 per cent. Mr. L. 11. ISITT contended that tho existence of tho side-entrance cars constituted a real danger to human life. This being so, the question of expense was of secondary importauce. Tho Wellington Tramways Engineer had not considered Mr. Davey'a amendment for a moment, but had put forward a proposal of his own. Two or three men had told him that the cars could bo altered for iL'o apiece.

Mr. WILFORD said that Mr. Isitt had suggested that he, as Mayor of the ci(y, should go to the Tramway Engineer aiid tell him how to alter the cars. Would h;'> not look silly if he did? air. Davcy had never suggested that the cars should be transformed, because ho did not know that it would bo necessary. But Mr. Richardson said that it would. It had been said that, as Mayor of tho city, he had not shown a proper regard for human life. As a fact h<> believed that the Hsle system was more dangerous to human life than the present system and he had said so. Mr. E. H. TAYLOH (Thames) declared that if ho did not know more about woodwork than tho Wellington tramways manager h<> would bo ashamed to say that ho had bceu apprenticed to eabiuct-mak-ing. Mr. Wilford: I am beginning to think that wo havo got Ufa wrong man. (Laughter.) Mr. Taylor said that if tho member for Hutt liad kr.own anything about nicchanuv; he would havo used different arguments. Hon. R. M'Kenzio Makes a Suggestion. ... Tho lion. li.M'KENZIE said ho had listened with interest to the dispute between Wellington and Christchurch, and tho export evidonce from Thames, but it was time (hat someone should intervene as peacemaker. Ho suryostod lhat sonic ni'i'ungomcnt should bo -made. Otherwise ho would ask the House to ;;o to a division. The Minister declared that ho had never beforo so lmn'h admired the patience of the Press tiullery. Mr. ELL >poko in support of the Davcy clause amid cries of "votu" from his own side of Hie House. Mr. WILFOUD moved as an amendment that the clause should apply only to "now" tnuncai's. 110 stated (hat K* would figkt all uiflit if necessary,

The amendment was carried by 32 Mr. WIU'OTiD inovrel that the words "tramway rarrhgrs" should be substituted for "franicars." Mi-. POLAND declared that Hie House wan being asked by wealthy corporal ionn in vote against a clause that had been inserted solely in the interests of the men whoso Lives were at staJco. The clause should apply to cars both old and now. Hp moved an amendment accordingly. Mr. HKRDMAN raised a point of order, and the Chairman of Commiitco.s ruled that tho amendment was inadmissible. Mr. Poland thereupon moved to lake thn Speaker's ruling. 'J , ho motion was agreed to. Tho Speaker ruled Hint Mr. Poland's amendment was inadmissible. At 1.15 a.m. there were -11 members in Hie' House. After some further discussion, Mr. HEIiDMA.X asked the Hon. I?. M'Kenzio to say what view he Toally tool; upon this clause. Thoro had boon ono important division already and the Minister had not voted. Apparently he had slipped nwny. Tho MINISTER said he favoured (lie view that all cars constructed niter tho passage, of this Act should have a middle pussago and vertical sides, lie proposed to ask (he mnnibiM , for Cliristchureli East to withdraw the rest of tho clause, lie did not agree with I lie estimate quoted by Mr. Wilford and considered that it had boon falcpi! up with tho intention of misleading llio public. Mr. WJLF(JRJ) protoslud that tho Minister's statement in reference to tho engineer's estimate was unwarranted. Tho MINJSTKR. moved to amend the clause so as \o mako it apply only to cars "licensed aftor the passing of tliis Act."

Mr. DAVEY said he would accept this. Tho MINISTER said more would be effected through tlio clauso a.s ho pr-iax-o.! to amend it than as it originally stood, l>ecau. c e if in'.s proposal were adopted tho new cars now under construction would have to conform to it. Mr. LUKE said ho had it on t:ho best authority that llio conductors preferred the pataco cars to the middle-passage cars. Tito increase of fares should bo (alien into account, and Hie local authorities ought not to Iμ disregarded, and not havo such a groat liability thrown upon them witlliout being consuitod. Tho amendment was carried on tho voices, making Sub-Section (1) read as follows:—"All new tramcars licensed after tho passing of this Act, excepting tboso usal on cable tramways, shall bo so constructed ns to provide a pas-ngoway from ono end of the car to tho other." Tho MINISTER- moved to amend tbe latter part of this to read: "Shall bo constructed with an aisle . or passageway throughout the portion of tho carriago set apart for passongcrs." Tins was agreed to on tho voices. At 2 a.m. 118 members wero in tho House. Mr. WILFORD moved that tho new provision should not apply to tho city of Wellington. This was negatived by 29 to 16. The clause in tho Havcy amendment providing for tho conversion of existing cars was deleted on tho motion of tho Minister. At 2.20 a.m. there wero 21 members in tho House. The Tramways Amendment Bill was reported with amendments, read a third time, and passed. Tho Native Land Claims Adjustment Bill was read a second time pro forma. Tho House rose at 2.15 a.m.